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› Forum › DIET & CARE › Congestion / Diarrhea, CEFA reaction – New Vet, Road to Recovery
Hello everyone,
First time posting. Wish it wasn’t under such sad circumstances, though
About a month ago, we picked up a holland lop doe born May 15th 2012. We named her Ramona and she’s adorable.
However, this past week, a few things have happened.
On Monday, my mom told me that she heard her breathing weird. She brought her to the vet, and my vet diagnosed her with sinusitis, he kept her over night, gave her a few treatments of nebulizer, and also prescribed a medication. However, this medication was CEFA. Normally, our vet is great. Has been working with bunnies for 30+years, and has great recommendations over the internet, even for bunnies. We only gave her a little bit of it as she refused to take it, and stopped after the first dose because of hearing about how bad it is for them when not injected.
Her congested breathing stopped, and since she didn’t have any discharge with her breathing, we think she may have just inhaled something and irritated her passageway. My mom then brought her back to the vet as she wasn’t peeing or pooping, and I think she said she wasn’t eating. After we brought her home again, two nights she seemed fine and her usual self! Flopping, binkies all over, etc. One of these days she was actually more affectionate than usual. She’s usually skittish, as she was hardly handled until our breeder adopted her in November, but was really great. Lots of normal poops, healthy appetite, etc.
And then, as soon as we put her back into her cage on the second night of being fine, she became lethargic. Her poop was still in kind of pellet form, but lighter, wetter, clumps and some mucus. There was stains all over her cage from some really liquid bowel movements. We’ve been force feeding her Critical Care since this morning around 8am after we both spoke to the vet and the breeder, which have now agreed on multiple points. The diarrhea is most likely from the CEFA, but we’re just confused on how it took her a few days to react this badly to it. We’ve been trying to feed her once every hour or so. We’re not entirely sure how much or how often to feed her.
How long does diarrhea usually last in bunnies? What else can we do on our own to make her better?
She occasionally cleans herself, will sometimes move around, and she’s eaten a piece of parsley and hay here and there, but mostly just sits and looks really sad When we pick her to up to force feed her, she fidgets like she usually does, which we take as a good sign. But as soon as we think she’s getting a little better, she just looks so sad again! It’s killing me. Anyone have any suggestions on what to do? We’re trying to keep her hydrated as best as we can. Our breeder suggested sweet potatoes and pineapple to keep her hydrated, but with the snow storm that just happened we won’t be able to get out until tomorrow. I’m not sleeping just so I can stay up and make sure she’s alright. The vet is not open on Sundays.
It has now been about 26 hours since she’s has diarrhea and been lethargic. We’ve been feeding her Critical Care since 8am and stopped around midnight so my mom could go to bed.
Please, any help is appreciated! We never had an issue like this with our last bunny, so we’re a bit stuck on what to do
Also, since we don’t 100% know what could have started her congested breathing, what do you guys think it could have been? We recently introduced cheerios as a treat, as my last rabbit loved them, but my vet and my breeder think that maybe it could have been triggered by wheat? I’m not so sure about this.
Thanks so much for reading!
I would advise against the sweet potatoes and cheerios.. Sweet potatoes are high in starch and rabbits can’t digest starch or dairy. A nice treat to feed a bunny is one piece of craisin or a sliver of fruit
Do you have an emergency vet established? I would get her to one immediately to get her hydrated since she is having diarrhea.
Thanks for the reply!
We don’t have an emergency vet established yet, as the last one knew nothing about rabbits. We brought our last bunny there, and it was obvious that they were not a good fit. They were mostly for cats and dogs even though they said ‘exotic pets’. I have yet to find another one in driving distance :/ We have had a really bad snow storm where I am, and the roads are horrible, and for 3am it’s really hard to get out there right now. We’re trying to keep her hydrated the best we can with the force feeding and Critical Care, but as said, we’re unsure of how much is too little or too much.
The packaging indicates how much to give but it can be really difficult to get them to take anything. Just give what you can. You might have to water it down a fair bit.
*If* this was due to the medicine, the reason it might have taken a while to affect her is it could have caused a gut imbalance. Wiping out good bacteria and allowing bad bacteria to proliferate. Once that gets out of balance, then you’d start to see symptoms.
Hydration and getting her gut back in balance will be important.
If not due to the med, it may be the excess respiratory fluids are draining into her stomach.
Some possibilities for her congested breathing would be:
-Respiratory infection
-Respiratory obstruction (like hayseed lodged somewhere)
-Dental abscess
I hope you are able to get her seen & healthy again. {{{Vibes}}} for Ramona !
Please note these are just guesses of mine. I hope you can have her seen by your vet and properly assessed to find out what’s going on.
I doubt you’re giving too much CC. My packet indicates 3 tablespoons per kg. (approx 3 Tbsp per 2 pounds?) Her being a holland lop she would be more then 3 pounds right?
ETA: be certain to feed it when she is upright. Especially important if she is congested.
CEFa is an antibiotic and it will kill the good, normal bacteria in the GI tract as well as the bad bacteria which were (perhaps) the cause of her cough or given to prevent the cough developing into pneumonia. At first the stomach may seem ok, but after a while – a few days, maybe- the normal bacterial flora could get too disrupted for the intestines to be able to work properly. Is the cough all gone now? Is there any normal poop along with the diarrea?
She’s probably 4 – 5 lbs. The mix we have I think is pretty watered down. Sometimes I try to have the mix settle and take some more of the water off the top just so she can take something.
Besides getting her hydrated, how exactly can I get her gut balanced out again? We’ve only been doing the Critical Care because we can’t get her to take anything else. Since I posted this I got her to drink a little bit out of the water bowl but now when I put it near her to drink on her own she just puts her head down so I can’t get to her mouth. She’s still really lethargic. Only cleaned herself once, maybe twice.
We think it may have been an obstruction, like a hayseed like you mentioned. My vet didn’t mention any dental abscess. What would I look for exactly when checking myself?
We plan on calling the vet as soon as it’s an appropriate time. He takes house calls but we feel really bad waking him up all the time haha.
When we feed her, we flip her upside down, but keep her head up! Hope that’s the right thing to do.
Thanks so much for the reply!
Ahh, your explanation of why it took a few days makes sense now. The cough is all gone now, and no normal poop. Not sure how to explain without pictures, but when she goes its like a pile of her normal poops if they were wet, lighter, a bit muddy. Its kind of like a cecal, but not really as it looks more like a pile rather than a bunch of grapes, if that makes sense.
I don’t think she has pooped since I’ve posted this, though. Her cage isn’t as messy as it was. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.
Actually, she just pooped right when I was typing this. It was mushy and reaaally smelly. Edit: as my mom put: “mushy and smelly but kind of bally”
Do you have any suggestions on how to make the bacteria normal again?
Thanks so much.
Critical care is supposed to be the best thing. I gave my bunny oxbow pellets dissolved in pineapple-juice when he wasn’t eating after his neuter. I didn’t put him upside down to feed him though, I made a “bunny-burrito” with a towel and the person helping me held Bam in his lap and I fed him with a syringe that I inserted behind ( or rather at one side of) his front teeth. You’re supposed to give the rabbit time to chew and swallow, not stick the syringe down the throat but I guess you know that. He would try to avoid the syringe but I put my hand under his chin and made him co-operate.
From what I’ve read, probiotics for human use isn’t much good to a rabbit, so I really think critical care should be the best thing to get her stomach in order unless there’s sth else wrong with her and in that case you need to see the vet again.
I would try feeding like the way Bam suggested. Having her on her back is too risky as they can easily aspirate food & liquids this way.
If antibiotics haven’t wiped out all gut flora, it will re-establish itself in time. You could try bene-bac gel or acidophilus tablets but I really don’t know how much these help. They won’t harm though.
Not sure how to explain without pictures, but when she goes its like a pile of her normal poops if they were wet, lighter, a bit muddy. Its kind of like a cecal, but not really as it looks more like a pile rather than a bunch of grapes, if that makes sense.
yes, that makes sense. It’s like what my rabbit had. Vet called it mucoid diarrhea. Like their normal poo, crushed and wet with what looked like frothy saliva on it.
We have a hard time with the bunny-burrito. She’s very skittish since she hasn’t really had any handling until November, so kind of cradling her is the only way we can get her still. My vet suggested that be the way we feed her because of this. She sure does have some powerful hind legs. We make sure her head and body is in a good position, of course. I wait until she’s chewing/licking the syringe to squeeze a little out. On accident, I sometimes don’t even stick it in her mouth enough and just get it all over her chin because I’m a little nervous about how far to put it in, honestly. I rather clean up a mess than hurt her. I go in from the side of her mouth/teeth, too. Only way I can make it work!
And thanks a lot for the advice, really. The only thing wrong with her is her poo and her low energy and not eating (that we know of). I wish I knew a ballpark figure of how long this will go on for so I would know when to really panic or to just have patience and keep doing what we’re doing. It’s 7am my time and I still haven’t gone to sleep because I’m so nervous to leave her alone haha. I take the night shift, and my mom takes the day shift. Just don’t want anything to happen during the hours while we sleep!
Hmmm. I guess we’ll try to give the bunny-burrito another go.
Where can I get bene-bac and acidophilus tablets?
The poo she has isn’t frothy, really. Just really slimy. Some is crushed/mush while others you can actually make out the balls. This is all so unappetizing haha.
Pets stores might have benebac. I’m not sure…
Drugstores and health food shops would have acidophilus products.
Another thing that is sometimes recommended is oral rehydration fluids like pedialyte.
One way I have success with feeding or meds is hold them against my chest lengthways and syringe to side of mouth. Sometimes I use a recliner so I can lie back at a better angle.
I get Benebac from my vet but I’ve heard that some pet stores have it. You could try calling some pet stores. My vet recommends Benebac while a bunny is on antibiotics and for a couple of weeks after.
I can understand your frustration. CC is a huge pain to get enough in the bunny. The method I use is to sit bunny on the table with a towel and syringe in the side of the mouth. This is the safest way, IMO, to prevent aspiration, since they are in their normal eating position. Maybe you could try some canned pumpkin (bought at the pet store specifically for pet digestion, NOT pie filling or anything from a grocery store). It’s good for diahrrea and my bunnies like the taste added to the CC. No more than about a teaspoon a day.
I really hope your beautiful bun feels better soon.
Update since this morning:
She’s nibbling on her fresh hay and drinking a bit by herself. Still not a lot, but we’re taking that as a sign of improvement! She’s really hating the force feeding now. Not even tolerating it. We’re still trying and whatever we can get her to take is the best we can do. Couldn’t find benebac, we’ll check again in other places tomorrow. As well as canned pumpkin.
We’ve taken her out of her cage so if she wants to run around, she can, but leaving her travel case open on the floor if she wants to hide. She sticks her head out and jumps out for a bit every once in awhile, so we’re also taking that as a good sign!
Really, thanks everyone for the help. Means a lot to us and Ramona. As the days go by I’ll try my best to update with her progress.
Yes, please try to keep us updated.
((((Feel better soon Ramona))))))
Love her name, btw.
This sounds really good! Eating hay is great and should help a lot. Hopefully it will mean you can reduce the criti-care feeds too. I’m sure everyone would be happy about that!
Also sending some more {{{vibes}}}.
Update!
On Monday we brought her back to the vet to hydrate her. She wasn’t pooping again at the time, but the visit seemed to help her out a lot. Since then, she’s been slowly eating more and more by herself. He gave us some bunny probiotic things to give her. Her poop still isn’t perfect, but its now more pellet-ish. Still wet/mushy, but not as much as before. She hops around more, and has been hanging out in her litter box filled with hay. So we’re taking all these things as good signs!
Question about bunnies and furballs, though: Since she was nesting a lot prior to this, could she have gotten a furball? The vet brought it up as a possibility that we should keep in the back of our minds if she is still having trouble pooping.
Thanks so much for the good vibes!
LittlePuffyTail – Thanks! We love it too. Named after Ramona Flowers from Scott Pilgrim 8) Was so hard to pick a name that fit her! Her previous names, Juliet, or Rosa, just didn’t seem to fit for us.
These vets really don’t sound at all experienced with rabbits – I know you mentioned that and the fact you had a snow storm – is there any possibility of finding a vet who has experience with rabbits – any kind of oral penicillin is always fatal in rabbits and that is usually the first thing a vet who has experience with rabbits will know.
Also rabbits don’t get furballs like cats which is another sign that these vets don’t have much experience. A gut slow down is not a furball.
Here is a good article written by a rabbit experienced vet concerning sluggish gi motility and the hairball myth in rabbits:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-7/gi.html
“The longer the rabbit doesn’t eat, the more dehydrated and impacted the material in the stomach and cecum becomes and the less the rabbit feels like eating. ” – from the site you just sent me.
That’s what he meant^. Her stomach got messed up from the cefa. Messed up tummy + increased nesting is what he was referring to. And if she doesn’t show even more signs of improvement, he wants to do x-rays to check to make sure that quote hasn’t happened, if that make sense. My fault for wording it wrong. This information is going from the vet, to my mother, to me, and she often words things differently than the vet to where, on places like this board, it means something different.
He got the CEFA information from a veterinarian book from either 2011 or 2012, I forgot which he said. He does keep up with things, but in this case his teachings just taught him wrong. I’ve actually started going to this vet from a rabbit vet review thread on another forum, maybe even this one, awhile ago when searching for a rabbit vet. He got pretty good reviews. There aren’t many other vets near me that I know of that isn’t just cats/dogs, so if anyone can refer me to a working link for vets that I can find in my area since the ones I keep coming across don’t work anymore, please link me to it.
It could just been she was sensitive to that particular abx or just oral ones in general. Perhaps and injectable one is better in future?
This is a vet list I’ve only just learnt of after a member posted link in forums here.
http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Category:United_States
The issue I keep having with these lists for my state is either all the vets are in NYC or really far upstate.
Brought Ramona to another vet that my mom’s coworker brought her rabbit to that was a little drive away, but manageable.
He gave her a whole look over. He felt her tummy, looked in her ears, listened to her breathing. He determined she’s actually still having some congestion and had a bit of a temperature. He also helped us clean her messy butt. My mom said she felt confident in him, although she forgot to ask a lot of questions she should have asked him about bunnies.
We have been doing a good job at keeping her hydrated, though.
He also determined her stomach was messed up from the CEFA (which we all figured) and that it’ll take a bit longer for it to get back on track. Ramona is very stressed out from all these visits.
He’s not sure what exactly caused the breathing problems in the first place, though. He gave us some pill Baytril to try to feed her with for the next 5 days. Any suggestions on how to get her to take it? He suggested marshmallows… I’m not sure about that.
He gave her an anti-inflammatory shot with some baytril in it to relieve her pain / fever / etc.
He said we don’t need to force feed her anymore, and as soon as she came back from that vet she devoured a whoooole bunch of hay!
She weighs 3.6 lbs. He wants us to introduce more vegetables and fruits in her diet. Any suggestions on what to introduce first? As mentioned, she was born mid-May, so not sure what would be safe to introduce to her while she’s still like this.
We’ve been keeping her diet limited as she’s still 8 months, and the breeder we got Ramona basically told us to just feed her hay, pellets, and oats since she doesn’t feed her rabbits anything else. We thought that was weird, as we fed our last holland lop fruits and vegetables and she seemed to love them. (but then again she would grab anything she could off the floor…). We’ve been giving her parsley, too. This breeder is still new at this, has been at it since last Easter, so I don’t take 100% of what she says as the be all ends all since she hasn’t been with bunnies as long as some breeders.
I just wanted to say thanks for everyone who is still reading this. It’s so hard when everyone around me is telling me all these different things – I don’t know who to listen to anymore!
I hope the pill isn’t liver flavored for cats and dogs. That will make it extra tricky to get her to take it. You could try putting it into a slice of banana?
Or crushing it up and mixing with water or juice then give via syringe.
With veggies, herbs are good to start with. Also Romaine lettuce, carrot tops…
I’d personally avoid fruits at the moment with her gut the way it is. Fruits should be a treat anyway, so small amounts only.
I have no idea what flavor it is. We’ve been wrapping it in parsley. It’s been hit or miss on whether the pill actually makes it in her mouth, but parsley is the only food she won’t deny at the moment! We tried putting it in banana, but she just kind of doesn’t even bother with fruit. Just smells it and hops away.
Her poop is more pellet-y, and she’s starting to flop again and eat more. Still not as much as she should be, though. She’s lost a lot of weight, can definitely feel it. She has two more days of this medication, so hopefully by the end of the week her appetite will be back up to where it used to be. I can hear her little tummy rumble when I lay down to pet her on the floor!
We’re taking it each day at a time, and if she doesn’t seem to be at least a decent percentage of her usual self by the weekend we’re going to bring her back to the new vet to make sure her breathing issue is 100% gone, since her tummy seems to be on its way to being cleared up. We know for awhile she’s definitely not going to trust us as much or binky as much, but as long as there are signs of warming back up to us, we’ll take it! We understand that this happened so soon after being thrown into a new environment with a bunch of strangers she was just starting to get used to, so we understand her current anxiety. Even though she doesn’t lay out in the middle of the living room like she used to and opts for corners or shadowy places, I think its a good thing she still asks for more pets when I stop.
We’re not out of the woods yet, but thanks everyone for the good vibes! I’ll update once again by the weekend!
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