About diet.. RA member’s emails to vets about fruits and veggies.

[Monkeybun]

A member of the Rabbit Advocates rescue group here in the Portland Area has been adamant about fruits of any kind not being given to rabbits, and veggies like romaine lettuce to be given as treats.. She recently sent emails to a few recommended vets in the area, and one down in San Diego as well, asking about rabbit diets, and what is good for them. One of the vets was my own, Dr. Mark Burgess, he’s a great vet.

I’ll repost the email she mailed out to us RA people, and the vets responses… its curious how different some of their viewpoints are. I’m also wondering if I should email her back, and point out that the RA site, the HRS site, and Dana Kremples all say that veggies are great, and fruits are fine as treats. Any opinions on if I should do so?

Here are copies of the emails…

 

 

Her initial email:

Good Morning to my favorite Rabbit-Savvy Vets!

 

I am a Rabbit Advocates (RA) volunteer who sees many rabbits during our adoption, grooming, and nail trimming Outreach events in the Portland, Oregon area (http://rabbitadvocates.org/outreach.html). Outreach volunteers are often asked to give advice about healthy rabbit diets. I’ve observed that we RAs often don’t seem to agree on the topic of pellets, and I would like to be able to provide a consistent vet-approved message regarding pellets. I’d be most grateful for your help!

 

I’ve studied the SDHRS website in some detail and believe they offer excellent, clearly-written dietary advice to rabbit caretakers, especially in their article about feeding pellets (http://sandiegorabbits.org/diet/pellets.html). Their main page of diet information is at http://sandiegorabbits.org/diet/.

 

Below is a key excerpt from the SDHRS article on pellets:

 

 

Excerpt:

“At San Diego House Rabbit Society, we typically recommend feeding a limited amount of pellets. And, we recommend sticking to pellets that are high in fiber and low in protein, such as Oxbow’s Bunny Basics T or Zupreem Nature’s Promise (both made from timothy hay) for a maintenance diet, or Purina’s High Fiber Lab Diet (high-fiber alfalfa pellets) for young, growing bunnies or older bunnies who need to keep on weight.

 

We concur with Dr. Susan Brown (see her article on Rabbit Nutrition at http://sandiegorabbits.org/diet/rabbit_GI_physiology.html) that a typical diet should consist of 1/8 cup pellets per 4 pounds of weight. Young rabbits, still developing muscle and bone, do need to eat pellets but keeping them high-quality will help them to add normal weight without becoming obese. Good options for youngsters are Oxbow 15/23, American Pet Diner alfalfa, or Purina Hi-Fiber Lab Diet.  Once bunny reaches 8 months old, they can be transitioned to a Timothy-based pellet that helps to maintain a healthy weight. Many adults rabbits, don’t even need pellets to maintain a healthy weight. If your rabbit is overweight, then certainly limiting or omitting pellets can help to get bunny back on track. Check with your veterinarian to determine your rabbit’s individual pellet needs.”

 

 

Do you generally agree with the above advice regarding pellets for the majority of rabbits? If so, I will pass the article and its excerpt along to RA volunteers and the public in efforts to help control obesity in rabbits, which seems to be a prevalent condition among those we see at Outreaches. If not, what guidelines would you prefer that we give to people regarding pellets?

 

I know that only a rabbit-savvy vet can provide the best advice for an individual rabbit, that all diet changes should be gradual, and that frequent weighing is the best way to monitor whether a rabbit is gaining or losing weight. I also know that I am not qualified to tell caretakers exactly how much their rabbits should weigh — that is a question for their vet to answer. Still, I’m hoping we can offer some consistent guidelines to Rabbit Advocates volunteers and the public in hopes of avoiding obesity and related health problems in rabbits.

 

P.S. I’m of the opinion (after speaking with several vets) that all fruits and carrots are best left out of most rabbit diets (safe greens such as Romaine lettuce, cilantro, and parsley are OK as daily or twice daily treats if the rabbit tolerates them). Do you concur?

 

Many thanks in advance for your help!

 

Vet replies:

(my vet)

Yes I think the overall recommendations listed above are decent. Higher protein alfalfa based pellets (16% Protein or higher) are best used for pregnant, nursing or growing rabbits (inadequate protein intake is a main cause of infertility or abortions in female breeders).  However, for adult/nonbreeding rabbits, lower protein (13-14% protein) timothy based pellets are best.  The exact amount is based on needs of a given bunny, but doesn’t need to be very much. Sometimes a tablespoon or two daily is enough, depending on size/activity level of the rabbit. Obesity can come from excess pellets (or rich pellets) or from seeds/nuts etc.  Non leafy parts of plants should be avoided, as should cabbage family plants (cabbage, bok choi, brussels sprouts, kale, broccoli, cauliflower) as they sometimes can induce gut upsets.  Leafy greens in moderation are otherwise okay, if tolerated well.

 

Interestingly, obesity can also result from using hays too high in protein; alfalfa is an obvious one, but some grass hays (meadow grass, orchardgrass, etc) can induce weight gain, especially if a ‘normal’ amount of pellet is also fed. Timothy and oat hays (and dallisgrass, when available) are leaner and probably preferable to most other grass hays, unless special medical concerns are present.

 

I strongly disagree with Susan Brown on one point: I believe that pellets should nearly always be part of the diet, due to their containing all essential vitamins and minerals; one never sees rickets/calcium deficiency (or other nutrient deficiencies) when pellets are used, which is a strong reason to always include them in the diet. Simply stating that “bunnies don’t need pellets to maintain body weight” is irrelevant; in places like Europe where pellets aren’t always used, metabolic bone disease and other nutritional problems are seen, which is nearly unheard of in the U.S. due to the commercial rabbit foods. Using a pellet with a guaranteed analysis is the only reliable way for the average pet owner to know that ALL essential nutrients are present in the diet.  It isn’t as simple as “normal weight = ideal nutrition.” These days there are great pellet formulas available, and no good reason to not use them.

 

Traditional alfalfa based pellets worked well for what they were designed for (breeding and production) but aren’t an ideal diet for the average adult pet bunny; Oxbow Bunny Basics-T and Kaytee Timothy pellets are two examples of readily available pellets with modified formulas (more fiber, less energy) that better suit most house bunnies. I hope this helps, feel free to write if you have more questions. 

 

Best regards,

Mark Burgess DVM

 

 

 

Dear Elizabeth,

Yes, I do agree that pellets, if used at all, ought to be of a high fiber, low protein type.  I also agree that fruits, grains, carrot roots, and any pet store treats ought to be left out of rabbits’ diets altogether.  Greens such as you mention can form a part of the diet, providing they do not affect stool quality or cause an increase in intestinal gas.  Grass hay, such as Timothy, ought to make up the bulk of the diet.

Take care and thanks for sharing this article,

Chris Wilson, DVM

Beaverton Pet Clinic

 

 

I believe the use of rabbit pellets needs to be judicious.  I usually recommend 1/4 c per day at most.  The owner must monitor stool quality and watch for weight gain.  I also don’t believe pellets are a necessity.  A good timothy hay source, clean water and some veggies will suffice for most rabbits.

 

Todd R. Cecil, D.V.M., DABVP-Avian

Pet Emergency & Specialty Center

Avian/Exotic Service 5232 Jackson Drive, Suite 105

La Mesa, CA 91941

 

So what do my fellow BB people think?

[Sarita]

I think that you will never ever get the exact same answer from any vet, rabbit rescuer or anyone else. I also think that they are all right. It just really does depend.

I think as long as you are giving in some respect what the HRS guidelines are and what your vet recommends you are are the right track. Obviously we all know that we should not give rabbits pizza, seeds, steak, cheese and the likes.

There really is no RIGHT answer and as with many different rabbits and members you will get many different situations. Also I find that many people are limited by what they CAN get so they have to be creative in order to feed their rabbits what is “recommended”.

I try not to let what what I give my rabbits as far as diet dictate what I think others can and should do for their rabbits. We can all only speak from our own experience and give our own opinions.

[RabbitPam]

Sarita, Sammy read your reply and gave her opinion.
She packed her carrier and left me a note:
“No pizza?????? If anyone wants to find me I’ll be staying at Papa John’s.”

A day without pepperoni…kidding.

Seriously, I think a balanced diet that’s observed in terms of what is eaten, what is avoided, and what causes problems in individual bunnies can go a long way in maintaining overall health and a good weight, in conjunction with advice from your own vet on an individual basis. Lately Samantha is sending me a clear message by chowing down the oat hay and leaving much of the greens, or spreading out her consumption over many hours. She inhales the pellets, but I give her a moderate amount just once a day. So I may cut back on the greens, but I have a hard time believing they aren’t a good, natural source of food that rabbits thrive on.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I think there are so many viewpoints because a) rabbits used to be raised as livestock and long term health wasn’t important, and sometimes still are seen as livestock even for breeders b) rabbit health is a relatively new field.

I agree-it’s a balance and will be different. I guess my viewpoint is to give veggies everyday, fruits limited, pellets and unlimited hay-and water of course. I think the three main components are hay, pellets and veggies-and I don’t really agree on leaving one out or relying to heavily on one-as moderation seems to be the only safe thing in life and variety is key to hitting everything needed in diets. But we hardly know anything about human nutrition -evidenced by all the journals, mags and obese people-we just learned how bad trans fats are and I don’t know if eggs are in the ‘great’ or ‘terrible’ category at the moment So I think it’s safe to say their will be varied opinions

[jerseygirl]

It can all get so confusing! I’m reading a book currently that says no lettuce (any type) as it contains lactucarium – supposed to have similar effect as opium. First I ever heard of that! Haven’t looked into it yet but it can be hard to separate fact from fiction. Book was printed 2000 – I’m looking at 2006 reprint.

[angelicvampyre]

I think if my bunnies don’t get their pellets soon (the pet store was out and i had to order them online) they may jsut revolt break out and eat my face off while i sleep!

[Elrohwen]

Jersey, Otto would be so sad if I took his lettuces away! It’s all the silly thing will eat. 😛

K&K, I agree with your philosophy of everything in moderation and as much variety as possble. I wouldn’t want to feed a no-pellet diet as I would worry that my bun wasn’t getting those trace nutrients that he needs (especially for a bunny like Otto who won’t eat a wide variety of foods). I also have a hard time believing veggies are evil or should only be fed as treats. It’s one thing if it causes poopy butt or something, but plenty of buns have no reaction to their greens at all. I feel that this (and hay) are the closest to what a wild rabbit would eat – veggies provide fiber and water which are both super important.

To me, it’s kind of like the raw diet debate with dogs and cats. I think there’s a lot to be said for a diet made of “real” whole foods (rather than a commercially produced food). However, those real whole foods can be expensive and I do understand if people can’t afford to feed them full time. I feel like one method may be slightly healthier, but it comes down to the individual animal and what you can afford to do. Plenty of dogs and cats eat only low quality processed food and are mostly fine, just as plenty of rabbits eat only low quality pellets and are probably more or less fine.

[Balefulregards]

Perhaps she has been worried when people hear “Lettuce” they go for the iceburg, so there is no nutritive value?

Our vet strongly encourages greens – in abundance and variety. She heartily approves of the amount I am giving them at night ( One child medicine cup full)

We are a 90% veggie family. They LOVE their greens. I do give a small amount of pellets as their nightcap…and this is when they get their tiny portions of pineapple juice too.

(As an aside, I have seen MUCH less pearling in Jacksons poo since the pineapple was introduced and he is in a heavy shed right now)

I laughed El – we had a cat we adopted from the “street” and darn if she didn’t refuse all the “Human quality organic ” food we offered her. Darn thing ONLY liked Meow Mix. Would turn her nose up at the 2 dollar car of “fishermans stew” sold at the high end pet store!

[Monkeybun]

Another RA member responded to the emails, saying to her, fruits are fine as treats,a nd veggies are an important part of the diet.. I think the major thing is that the first RA member was wondering what tot ell people at the monthly outreach. If she’s giving info that could be worng, like only greens as treats etc, it could get weird at the outreaches for people getting different information from people.

[lashkay]

Thanks for the info. I put a lot of stock in Mark Burgess’s comments. My bunny seems to tolerate lettuce – the only kinds I’ve given him are baby aragula, if that’s a lettuce, romaine, green leaf, read leaf, and spring mix. Jerseygirl, would the opium-like ingredient you mentioned be found in baby aragula, as well? That’s fast becoming a new favorite of Buddie’s, and I have questions about romaine.

[jerseygirl]

Oh the lettuce thing…. I read it in a book and have seen it quoted elsewhere. I then found this info at a site I often visit and find really interesting. Actually Kay, you may want to look around, there is a milk thistle or liver tonic available I think. http://www.galensgarden.co.uk/vegetables/lettuce.php
Anyway, it basically says that substance is found more in wild lettuce than the commercial type. Honestly, I’ve been feeding lettuces, chicorys, dandelion greens (arugula occasionally) for a while and haven’t seen zoned out rabbits as a result.

Nope, no zoned out rabbits here.*

  

*No lettuce was used in production of these images.

[lashkay]

Thanks for the info, I tried several variations of http://www.GalensGarden.co.uk but nothing came up. On the milk thistle, our vet gave me a request for Nutramax Marin tablets for cats for the liver which contain the chief ingredient of milk thistle. This was in lieu of giving me a dosage for liquid milk thistle. They will be tuna and chicken flavored so hope he doesn’t have an averse reaction to the taste. I’ll just have to crush the tablets and give it with some food. Adorable non-zoned out bunnies you have there! LOL

[jerseygirl]

Oh, the link didn’t work? I’ll try it this way. http://www.galensgarden.co.uk  then “Nutrition” in left menu. Then “Vegetables” in right menu. Then “Lettuce Info” in left menu. Left, Right, Left.

[lashkay]

Thanks Jerseygirl, I DID find the galensgarden website. It has lots on milk thistle but unless I can find an exact dosage for a rabbit with Buddie’s weight, I think I’d better first try the Marin cat tablets our vet advised. Thanks, though, I’ll keep the other in mind.

[lashkay]

I found it by entering http://www.galensgarden.co.uk.com and then typed milk thistle in the search box. Thanks.

[Elrohwen]

Jersey, this might totally explain why Otto spends 90% of his day staring off into space 😛

[lwayne]

So I thought that we are supposed to give 4-6 C of veggies per 6lbs per day? Also, if [romaine, red/green] lettuce, kale, among all the veggies on the no list, how do we provide a diverse diet?

My vet agrees with a limited to no pellet diet and recommends 1 C of veggies per 2lbs of bun per day. This general rabbit care site was written by her: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientEd/bunny.aspx

If I don’t give Arduina her pellets/veggies on time she makes it known… With her current diet of 1/4 C T-pellets and ~4 C of veggies plus unlimited T-hay, she has been maintaining her 6-6.5 lbs (our scale is not that accurate) weight pretty well.

[LoveChaCha]

Does Orchard Grass really make a bunny a little chubby?

Chacha is 3 months old, and I give her unlimited pellets. If I do need to give her more, it is usually half a cup. She is a growing Dwarf. She doesn’t usually finish everything in one sitting… it usually takes 2-3 days.

Different vets, different voices

[Elrohwen]

Brittany, since your bun is young and growing, I don’t think you need to worry about her getting chubby just yet. Most buns get chubby after at least a year of age when they’re done growing and aren’t as active.

lwayne, I don’t think anyone here is saying that those veggies are on the no list. MB posted someone else’s opinion, but the HRS still lists all of those as acceptable veggies. Jersey did bring up something about lettuce, but it’s not enough information to make me stop feeding it. Plenty of plants contain traces of interesting minerals, but that doesn’t mean it’s in a form the body can process or that it’s enough to make a difference.

[BinkyBunny]

I also agree that there will be many varying opinions on this. I know many very rabbit-savvy vets that would encourage more green intake and less pellets – not just greens “in moderation”. And as far as metabolic bone disease almost unheard of ….. I haven’t heard that it’s unheard of, in fact, I have commonly heard that being used especially in the last five years or more as bunnies with “calcium issues” may now be recognized as having metabolic bone disease.

The one thing pellets like Oxbow brands do offer is a type of vit D that is important for bunnies who are indoors only and don’t get much sunlight. I bet if she sent this to Dr. Harvey, and other like-minded vets, who encourage a greens/veggies weighted diet , there would be even more diversity of answers to the ones received as of yet.

I can tell you that Jack, who does have problems processing calcium, has done so much better with a pellet free diet as recommended by my vet. Now if he didn’t have calcium problems, I would still offer pellets, but just very limited and keep the majority of his diet to hay and a large variety of greens.  

I have never heard of Orchard causing more weight gain as my understanding as it is the similar in calories to Timothy, and I was surprised to read that one vet felt that Oat was lean, especially when it has a higher caloric value. It’s still a good hay to feed and is high in fiber, I just never thought of it as a lean hay by any means.

Out of curiosity is this volunteer following an even stricter greens/fruit diet than the one posted on rabbitadvocates or are they going to change that because as of now it says one cup of greens and 1 oz of fruit.

I think in the end it comes to which information do you trust when both may seem to have info to backup their facts.  

For me, I rely the House Rabbit Society’s Guidelines.  They now have over 20 years experience with non-breeding, spayed/neutered rabbits whose main living quarters are in the house.   I know they too are a non-profit and care deeply about rabbit welfare, but 20 years of experience is hard to beat when focusing on non-breeding House Rabbits specifically.  

With that said,  HRS and other rescues that follow those diet and health guidelines continue to learn, grow and educate as new information comes to light, so I try and keep up with any changes and modifications they make.   So far, this has served my bunnies well, and even got them through severe medical issues — like bladder stones/sludge.   I’ve rarely had problems with GI tract issues unless there was some other obvious problems like malloclusion or e.cuniculi/hind leg weakness— but even then I believe the well hydrated diet really helped them survive many many years of what would have otherwise been a roller-coaster ride of gi problems due to their medical issues. 

I guess the best way is to look at the years of experience, if they keep up with new information, and the goal of the group, vets, individuals offering the advice.   Many will have a definite good intent, but they may not have the experience or have kept up to date.   So it’s important  to really research those factors as well when deciding on what to follow.

[Moonlight_Wolf]

My opinion on diet is that:

1. Hay is essential, Timothy or any grass hay are good – I think they should be the main part of the diet.
2. I think that pellets are not essential to the diet but are good to have in the diet so that the bunnies can get the extra nutrients.
3. Also I think that leafy greens are good to have in the diet mostly to just keep the gut hydrated. I don’t think it is essential to feed bunnies vast amounts of greens, I mostly feed mine greens because they enjoy them and I do believe that they contribute something to the bunnies health, but basically I believe that greens are like non-dried hay, but I couldn’t not give the bunnies the greens they love!

[corpathina]

i find his comments about how cabbages should be avoided very interesting. for the most part, MJ refuses to eat lettuces of any sort but cabbages are his absolute favorite green. he loves bok choy and and brussel sprouts way more than cilantro or parsley (which are both big hits with buns from what i’ve read of others). he never seems to have a problem with gas, but i surely don’t want to feed him cabbages if it’s ill-advised.

maybe diets vary from bun to bun? i wish it were more black and white, but it’s just not. each of us have our own picky little bunnies with their own set of gastro habits/issues. -shrug-

[BinkyBunny]

 Corpathina – Cabbage is one that can cause gas in some bunnies, but not all — some tolerate it well, so if yours has been doing just fine on it, then I wouldn’t worry.   I think offering a larger variety from the larger veggie list on the diet page) is key to a good balanced diet. 

 

I copied this next tidbit from the our diet page which is a list that was put out by the HRS regarding some veggies that are tolerated okay by some bunnies but not by others— cabbage and broccoli are on this list. 

 

VEGETABLES USUALLY TOLERATED, BUT MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE SOME PROBLEMS IN VERY SENSITIVE RABBITS

Beet root Broccoli Brussels sprouts Cabbage Cauliflower Green beans Radish root turnip root

[lwayne]

Binkybunny, are Jack’s health problems due to being albino?

PS He is super cute!! and so photogenic.

[BinkyBunny]

Actually lwayne — good catch! Though white bunnies are more common to have this problem, he happens to have dark brown eyes, not red, so he is not a true albino because he does have eye pigment and also has a bit of pigment on his ears and down his back (just very slight grey) but maybe somehow, being mostly white, this problem was passed down through his DNA.

[Author]

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