Is Theo sick… or what do you think is going on?

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Hi there new to binkybunny and new to owning a bun in general! I’ve had my 4 month old English angora, Theo, for one week and I’ve been nonstop researching to help him feel his best. I received him with fleas so that’s what I attribute the constant itching to… but I also noticed within a couple days slightly watery nose (clear), snorts and sneezes, frequent nose rubbing, and watery eyes (clear) with pink outline. He is eating Oxbow mix of Timothy and oat grass hay and Kayte Timothy based pellets. He saw the vet and has been on doxycycline 8 days now (and was given revolution 8 days ago) with minimal change. Vet is starting to assume allergies (he is acting pretty normal as far as I can tell with activity and eating/pooping) but I am very concerned and want to stay ahead of this… any suggestions for what may be going on and next steps are greatly appreciated by me and my little guy!

[Sirius&Luna]

Some rabbits are allergic to timothy hay, so you could try just the oat hay for a week or so and see if that makes any difference. You can also get dust extracted hay.

What do you use for his bedding?

I assume doxycycline is in case it’s a respiratory infection?

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Yes the antibiotic was in case it was an infection but the symptoms have remained relatively the same throughout the cycle aside from maybe some days his nose will be drier nose than others. The nose and eye discharge has stayed clear. He has paper bedding. The hay suggestion is a good idea and the vet also suggested it. When I got him from the breeder, he had only been eating Timothy and I didn’t notice these symptoms so would you think in that case oat hay is the issue and I should be trying just Timothy for a week? That was my plan unless there were strong opinions otherwise…

Also wondering if now that this cycle of meds is over, we should be trying something new in case it is an infection that was not affected by the doxycycline?? And possibly medicated eye drops in case there is some conjunctivitus going on (the outline is pink, crusty in the corners, making his fur crusty when they weep, and they’ve only gotten more wet and irritated since the vet)

[Bam]

Doxycyklin is a broad spectrum antibiotic that kills most types of bacteria, but sometimes a bun needs to be on a longer course of antibiotics or be treated with a combo of antibiotics. baytril (enrofloxacine) is probably the most used antibiotics for buns, but penicillin G (always only as injections) is sometimes given too.

My very fluffy bun gets runny eyes if I don’t cut the hair around his eyes. According to his former owner, he has always been like that.

Eyedrops with fucidine are bunny safe, but I’d first try cutting the hair a little bit. Try to get someone else to hold Theo in their lap for the procedure so you minimize the risk of accidents with the scissors. I don’t cut close to the skin, i just cut back the length of the hair. a little.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

2nd vet visit and more $$ later… Theo now has Ofloxacin eye drops. I am doing my best to get a drop in each eye 2-3 times a day. My question is, if his energy seems fine but he rubs his nose often and has crusty irritated conjunctiva, should he be on an oral antibiotic as well? I thought eyes are usually secondary to something more going on systemically (even though he isn’t acting sick as has already done a round of antibiotics). He had lost over half a pound between our 1st to our 2nd vet visit which were two weeks apart but he also wasn’t be offerred pellets 24/7 anymore like he was used to so maybe he was being picky and not eating enough hay…? Do I just let him pig out on pellets?! Do I need to convince the vet for oral antibiotics too again? Ugghhh please help…

[LittlePuffyTail]

You are right, eye issues are often secondary but there can be problems with them on their own. However, the nose rubbing is concerning and makes me suspect something like Pasteurella.  These are things you could discuss with your vet. In this case, antibiotics would definitely be needed to get things under control.  

Don’t let him pig out on pellets. Too many pellets can cause GI issues and you definitely don’t want anymore problems. Are you able to get Oxbow Critical Care? You can offer some of this in addition to his normal food to help bring his weight up. My senior had to have several TBSP per day, mixed with water, to keep his weight from getting too low.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

I can get some critical care I am just not sure what the ideal weight would be anyway. He acts happy and has never had worsening symptoms so I think that is why the vet wasn’t too concerned about pasteurella after the one round of antibiotics even though I agree with your concern about that. He has been getting the antibacterial eye drops and it’s difficult to tell if that has done much for the irritation, so maybe he is having hay allergies after all? Because if it was caused by bacterial infection, I would think the eyes would have cleared up with these drops. So hard to judge what to do when he is in this weird gray area…

[Bam]

Hay dust can get in the eyes and some batches of hay are dustier than others. You could lay out his hay on a tarp or blanket etc, stir it around a little, then put as much as you can back in the bag and get rid of the dust that’s collected on the tarp or blanket. I’ve found orchard and oat hay to be less dusty than timothy, especially orchard hay.

There are bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics and there isn’t one antibiotic that kills all types of bacteria. Some vets will do antibiotic susceptibility testing, but many vets will just try another type of antibiotic.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Tried to figure out if it was the hay or an allergy. Theo has seemed fine but now it’s clear he is sick because he has white discharge visible out his nose and he keeps itching one side of his head/ear. Going to take him to a vet. Should I go to a new vet? The last one has me pretty unhappy but who knows how the next one will be… should they be doing a culture or a pcr test? From my understanding pcr is more accurate but doesn’t test which antibiotic is most effective.

[Bam]

Some vets will do a culture first, whether they do cultures or pcr will depend on the clinic’s routines I think. Pcr is more accurate because it tests for bacterial DNA, a culture misses bacteria that won’t readily grow in a petri dish. But as you are saying, antibiotics susceptibility testing is done on cultures, they allow you to see what antibiotics in what dose will stop the bacteria growing.

Most vets I think would want the bun to be started on antibiotics asap and prescribe Baytril for snuffles, then adjust the choice of abx when the test comes back if the result indicates that Baytril won’t be effective.

If you don’t really trust your vet I think you should look around for another. It’s difficult enough having a poorly bun, having a vet you don’t have confidence in makes it even more difficult.

The House Rabbit Society has a list of Bunny savvy vets in the USA, Canada, the U.K. And Singapore: http://rabbit.org/vet-listings/

[TheodoreTaloolah]

I really appreciate your quick reply. Theo has an appointment with a new vet that I used to take my bird to.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Update: Theo did 21 days on Baytril, .1 mL morning and night (he is a little under 5lbs at almost 6 months. Wondering if this is normal for an English angora as well). He is off antibiotics at the moment and seems to sneeze less than before this but still has a damp nose often. I notice a whiteish look to it every now and again. Very frustrated. The new vet was sure this would take care of the mild “snuffles” Theo was demonstrating but I’m still seeing it! At least Theo isn’t seeming too bothered by all this. I am at a loss of what to do other spend more to do a culture and go from there….?

[Bam]

Snuffles can be very stubborn. It’s not rare for a bun to need repeat courses of antibiotics or really long courses, at least 30 days. Why this is isn’t fully understood, it probably has to do with the bun’s own immune system rather than the choice of antibiotics. Snuffles is caused by pasteurella, a bacterium that is carried by many rabbits that still don’t get sick from it, because their immune defense can keep the bacteria in check. Susceptibility to symptomatic pasteurella in house rabbits that live happy, low-stress lives with good care and good food is believed to have genetic components.

Here is an article from The House Rabbit Society, which is a trusted source: http://rabbit.org/pasteurella-its-health-effects-in-rabbits/

There are other bacteria that can cause snuffles-like symptoms though, such as streptococchus. Sometimes combination therapy with Baytril + another suitable antibiotic is effective.

[Wick & Fable]

Indeed, I will echo what bam says — some cases require more long-term treatments than others. Stopping the antibiotics too early is a common occurrence, or at least recurring episodes are. Wick’s first vet said that some bacteria are clever and literally hide themselves in the debris of dead copies, so longer courses are required to chip away at that barrier. Other times, it could be the wrong antibiotic, or just a more persistent infection that needs a longer course.

Wick ended up doing a combo of Baytril and penicillin shots. He started with Bactrim (no change), then Baytril (slight improvement; did not cure though), then we added on the penicillin shots.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

UPDATE: So Theo is on his second vet after first one had him do 10 days doxy and then told us it is allergies. Second vet did Baytril two weeks and was skeptical of it being anything. I kept Theo on Baytril for a week longer than prescribed (3 weeks total instead of 2).

Over a week ago, we went back in to new vet for a culture because he still had white snot at the end of Batyril. Theo did not seem to have much snot the day the culture was done however. The lab is also out of office so I am feeling like these are reasons why the results ended up negative. I believe he is sick and getting worse after being told by two vets it doesn’t seem like anything. VETS, SINCE WHEN IS CONGESTION AND WHITE SNOT BEING SNEEZED OUT “NOT ANYTHING/ POSSIBLE ALLERGIES”?!!! I do not think any of us need to be vets to know this doesn’t seem right… white discharge signals infection. Getting this false culture result doesn’t help me argue my case and they just think I’m a crazy lady looking for something that isn’t there. To top it off and make this even more urgent now, Theo now has less appetite since the culture vet visit…. What do we do?!

[Wick & Fable]

I have a bias against cultures, largely due to Wick’s first vet, who holds that opinion. Cultures always have a chance of showing false negatives, while giving your rabbit a rabbit-safe medication to see if there are improvements or not are, as she and I saw, a bit more definitive. There are times when cultures are great and very informative, but always balance the results with what symptoms you are seeing with your rabbit.

If you believe your rabbit is still getting worse, I would discuss this with a vet you feel comfortable with. As I mentioned in my previous post, it took three times to find the right medication combo for Wick’s particular URI — we didn’t do any cultures; simply trial and error based on symptoms. Some vets are comfortable with this, some aren’t. It’s also for owners as well; some are comfortable with this approach, and others are not.

If you happen to live in southeast Pennsylvania, I would recommend Wick’s first vet!

In terms of the appetite, I would definitely raise this to a vet. How is his sneezing frequency and breathing sounding now?

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Bam]

Cultures should be done at least a week after a course of antibiotics has been stopped, or you may not get enough bacteria in a sample to culture. Also some bacteria won’t readily grow in a petri dish. That doesn’t mean they’re not there.

I recently went to a lecture where a rabbit vet discussed snuffles. Her take was that if you have tried a bunch of antibiotics, done long courses, the bun is eating, drinking, pooping and behaving normally, doesn’t lose weight etc, then you might have to accept the snuffly nose and just be really observant so the infection doesn’t spread down into the lungs, that’s very serious in rabbits.

It’s very frustrating though, when you can’t get to the bottom of a problem. Was he given any metacam? Sometimes vets will prescribe that because it’s an anti inflammatory med. In humans, cortisone is much used for inflammation and sinus infections, it makes the tissues less swollen = nasal passages widens and antibiotics can reach through to do their work. You should not medicate rabbits with cortison, so Metacam is often used instead.

Were any antihistamines prescribed? If the vet really thinks this is an allergy, anti-histamines would be the drug to try. If it makes no difference at all, it’s less likely to be allergy.

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Theo has only been on the Doxy and Baytril. When the culture was done, it was day 8 of no antibiotics. Last night is when I was sure he must be sick despite the results that I received Friday because I woke up to him sneezing a lot which I hadn’t really heard since before going in for the culture. Sure enough, when I checked on him, there was a lot of white snot. After sneezing a lot this morning, I got him some steam in the bathroom and he did not sneezed/snorted nearly as much After that during the day but had a very wet nose all day and just had his worst sneezing fit with booger’s tonight.

He is pooping but is not pigging out on his pellets like he would normally. I have noticed an increased interest in his hay instead of pellets when they are both right there. I have been introducing more veggies into his diet the past couple weeks also so maybe he IS eating the same amount of food but it’s just that he is eating different items? Seems concerning I will weigh him tomorrow if I can do it without stressing him too much. Are there any risks to antihistamines and what should I be looking and listening for in terms of the lungs and pneumonia? I’m thinking he must be sick so will probably have to try another medication for some duration so any suggestions?

Poor baby, he has been dealing with this rollercoaster of symptoms since I got him in January and suspected something from his clear, damp nose and him sneezing a few times a day…

[Bam]

There is also a possibility that there is something in his nasal passage, or that his nasal passages are very narrow etc. The vet I listened to said that sometimes they do find a seed or piece or hay deep in the nose of a rabbit, but that it’s extremely difficult to get a view inside those tiny, tiny structures. There are fiber optic devices that potentially could be of use, but they are still incredibly pricey (somewhere along the lines of 300 000 dollars), so they are not an option for most vet clinics.

Are his eyes still runny? Tear duct problems are not uncommon. Has his teeth been checked?

It’s good that he eats hay, it’s really healthy for him. Teeth should always be considered when a rabbit changes his eating habits, although it is indeed more common that the bun goes off hay and only wants easily eaten food like soft vegs and pellets.

I know some of our members, among them Forum Leader LBJ10, has been prescribed benadryl for their buns. The main side effect is drowsiness. For humans there are antihistamines that don’t cause drowsiness, but I’d have to look into that more to say if there’s one that can be used with rabbits.

When my bun Bam had a lower respiratory infection, I heard it when he was upset or excited. For example when he had something extra yummy to eat – he went crazy excited for treats. It was a very soft” twittering” sound, easy to miss. The vet of course heard it perfectly well with the stethoscope. She also x-rayed his chest (awake) to confirm. (He was completely cured after two weeks of Bactrim, so it was a pretty minor infection).

[TheodoreTaloolah]

Teeth not checked but he is only 6 months so they did not suspect anything and he has been eating like crazy until a few days ago. His eyes have been fine since using the drops a while back. The nose has had gunk come out both nostrils, not just one side otherwise I might have suspected something to do with a foreign object as you discussed.

I spoke with the vet today and he thinks try Theo on Benadryl for a couple days and if no change, then resort to another trial and error antibiotic in case it is an infection. I swear he told me 4 ml but he must have said 4 mg (2mg/kg) because 4 ML would kill a bunny. I did the calculations and it should be that 4 mg is 1.6 ml. For some reason I am hesitant to give him this though.

[Bam]

I will alert forum leader LBJ10 to this thread, because I know she has been given benadryl for one of her buns.

I agree it seems unlikely that such a young rabbit should have very overgrown teeth. That would need a while to develop.

ETA: I asked forum leader Jerseygirl too, she too has given benadryl to 2 of her buns. She found the dosage on RabbitWiki. For diphenhydramine it is indeed 2 mg/kg by mouth every 12 or 8 hours, just as you say. This is for plain diphenhydramine Benadryl, not the type for allergy plus congestion. I don’t know if that would be safe for rabbits.

http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Common_drug_dosages_for_rabbits

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