Moving In – A Trio!

[Miichelle Erin]

Hi all! I am in the process of introducing and bonding three buns and need your opinion on one aspect.

Rabbit 1 – Pan. Pan is a neutered 8 month old Male lop. He was taken from his mom and litter at 10 weeks old and has been a single rabbit with me ever since. He was never been introduced to other animals, with the exception of a dog sniffing around his cage a few times. He is gentle and sweet, social and never aggressive, with HUMANS. He is confident and loves to explore and test new territory and challenges. He has shown no signs of depression or loneliness being an only rabbit. He has been neutered since he was 6 months old.

Rabbits 2 and 3 – Eleven and Ash. I got Ele snd Ash one week ago at 10 weeks old without knowing gender. They are lionhead siblings and very small! I have checked them and Ele is female and Ash is Male. They are very close and act like twins. They cuddle, eat drink and use the bathroom at the same time. They are also very friendly and explorative and curious. They are not yet spayed or neutered.

None have any health issues or disability.

My ultimate goal was to at least try to bond the three of them, realizing all of the challenges but wanting to take it on with the end goal of all three being able to live together in what is currently Pan’s large two story hutch. When I brought the babies home, I placed them together in a separate cage from Pan, but with the wall of the cage up against the wire of the hutch. Over the past week the buns have met and sniffed and gotten to know each other and me through the cages. I have switched out cage items back and forth to get the smells of all into each others space. Pan was initially a bit scared, then curious, and then I noticed that he started eating at the same time they did, then eating next to them, and laying down in his cage up against the wall of theirs comfortable. Yesterday I brought the babies to an upstairs bathroom which is neutral for Pan, and went to get Pan to meet them face to face for the first time. It was so strange, usually when I open Pan’s door he leaps out excited to run around, but this time he cowered in the corner and did not want to come out. Like he knew!! The babies were secluded a whole floor upstairs, nothing in sight, but he was terrified to come out! Buggy eyes, breathing so heavily, body tense. I have never seen him so scared since he was neutered and in pain!

So, I was able to get him out and up to join the babies, prepared with gloves spray bottle and a broom to separate if needed. Pan is huge compared to them,although he isn’t a *huge* rabbit, he is healthy and strong and a good size lop. So my worst fear would be him being aggressive and something happening to them. When they met, it was actually uneventful. Each of them did give off a few Thumps, but they were tentatively curious of each other, and within a minute or two, Pan who was still very stressed, was letting Ele groom his face and ears and Ash was cuddled up against his side. Now at this point I didn’t trust everything because I thought if he was really terrified he could be kind of paralyzed or just submitting in fear. But after a few more minutes, he was up and sniffing and interacting. I did not see a *click* love at first sight, but it also wasn’t disinterest. It was like strangers becoming acquaintances. I’m not *all in* but hey you’re okay! I consider the first meet successful. Absolutely no violence fighting or aggressive signs. Days two and three I had more sessions and this time let them loose in a large area that is Pan’s territory. His hutch is in this room and this is where he hangs out 100% of the time when he is free. Had the same result. They groom each other a little, this time there was some playing and binkying around each other and some playful chasing but not too much. Also of importance, Pan walked right into their cage and started eating and drinking their food both with them in there and by himself. And the babes went into his hutch and did the same. Pan also joined them in his hutch and they all ate together and just hung out, they spent about 20 minutes together in his hutch with not even one sign that anything was wrong or there was any territory stuff happening.

So, being that the goal is for the three to live in the hutch, a few things. Do you think I should continue longer and longer sessions of them in the hutch together but not fully move them in yet? Or do you think that what they have displayed so far is enough that I can trust them together and they are fine. I am not sure if I’m overthinking and over cautious or not. What do you think are the best next steps to continue to work toward co-habitating. My worst nightmare is that things are good and I have locked them in and I go to bed and come down to someone injured or worse because they weren’t ready! I have a lot of green lights, especially the eating together and laying down with each other in these close territory spaces, and I have read a lot, but am looking for some opinions and advice on this.

Thank you all so much in advance!

[DanaNM]

Hi Michelle, welcome

Your bunnies sounds adorable.

For now, you should stop all sessions and wait until the babies are spayed and neutered. It is normal for babies to get along with adults, but they are not truly bonded. Much like an adult being kind to a baby or child. They have no reason to be mean, because the baby is not a threat. But, once puberty hits, things can go wrong really quickly (as you mention is your worst fear). Also, females can get pregnant very early, so she should be kept very separate from your boys. I’ve heard stories of males impregnating females in other cages by spraying sperm. Not sure if it’s true, but better to be on the safe side!

So, yeah, for now, separate all three. They can still live side by side (except don’t have the unspayed girl next to her brother until he is fixed).

Then you can re-do prebonding, as you did, and start sessions again. But, females can’t be spayed till 6-8 months, so you have some time to wait. Boys can be neutered younger, so once that happens, you might choose to work with the boys first, then add in the girl later.

Sorry I can’t tell you they are bonded! But I glad you trusted your gut and decided to check before moving them in together!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Miichelle Erin]

[Miichelle Erin]

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! I have shared a photo of the family. Yes, I have read exactly what you have outlined, that getting the babies fixed is completely necessary before anything will be truly successful, and I do not want more babies between brother and sister, so I will have to separate them anyway until then. That part breaks my heart because they are so close! I was hopeful about these first interactions too. Are we sure they are really meaningless? Or is it at least a good thing that there is all positive hang outs and that they are used to each other?

Now thinking, when the babies come home from spay and neuter they are going to smell weird and will probably have to reintroduce based on that alone. Well it sounds like I really just have another three months of waiting while just keeping the babies healthy and growing them until they are all fixed. That is the key!

[Asriel and Bombur]

You really can’t assume anything until after they’ve been fixed and you start bonding. Their personalities and their scents will change after being fixed. So even if they are close now, that could change once they’re neutered, and it could even have changed before separating them when their hormones kicked in. Hormones really change everything, so to be honest, no, you really no with younger buns what the bond is going to be like.

My boys had been together since day one, all snuggled up and loving on each other. Hormones kicked in and they had a small scuffle. We kept them separated till well after their neuter. When we started sessions they went really well at first and then stalemated, mainly due to Bombur’s health issues, but still it drove a wedge between them and they’ll never really get along. So definitely too soon to really tell if they’ll all bond.

[Miichelle Erin]

Okay. I do not have three cages. If I put Pan and Eleven together (Pan neutered and they get along the best), and watch them carefully, do you think that would be okay just until she is spayed? That way, she can’t get pregnant, and she is too little to be a threat to Pan like you suggested.

[Asriel and Bombur]

No, When she gets hormonal it’s likely that Pan will not get along with her and will feed off her hormones. Even they are likely to get into a nasty scuffle. It really is best just to wait until they all are fixed.

[DanaNM]

Oh my word they are so cute!!! They will be happy to have each other as neighbors, even if they can’t be together.

But yeah, unfortunately you will want to separate all three. It’s hard to say if getting along now means anything, but if a fight breaks out when all of the sudden the baby boy hits puberty, that can definitely make things harder with their eventual bonding. .

You might want to invest in a couple extra x-pens, or some packs of NIC cube grids to help you divide up your space and make some temporary housing you are happy with. This is usually a cheaper option than buying a cage.

This tutorial is for a very simple cube grid cage, and is what I’ve always used during bonding: http://www.bunssb.org/bunnies/perfect-cheap-bunny-cage/

It’s not as big as I would want for something permanent, but works great for a few months, and is much larger than pet store cages.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Miichelle Erin]

Although I don’t like these answers, you are correct and I need them. I appreciate your expertise, time and feedback! All of this will be worth it in the end, when things are done right, the babies are healed, and hopefully Pan is bonded with at least one, running around, playing and cuddling. I just wanted a companion for him and now have a jigsaw puzzle of complex creatures as beautiful and sweet as they are! I love these guys so much and will do anything to ensure their ultimate health and happiness. I think the next three months will be the toughest and then we will be good. Thanks again for backing up what I have already read but was hoping to hear different. I appreciate it!

[Miichelle Erin]

One more question.

When the time is right and if I do things patiently and correctly, do you think that I have a chance of bonding all three?

[DanaNM]

I think you for sure have a change of bonding all three if you have enough patience, which it sounds like you do.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Miichelle Erin]

One more question for you. You mentioned that when Ele starts to process hormones soon, the relationship will change with Pan. If there were to be aggression at that time, would you expect to see it from the older neutered male or from the littles? Is there any rhyme or reason? Like, the littles may become more aggressive with testosterone and hormones flowing but not yet desexed, or vice versa Pan could show aggression sensing these changes. Or both?

[DanaNM]

I imagine it could be some combination of both! Pan might all of the sudden see them as a threat and act out, or they might start getting defensive around him (much like moody teenagers….).

Side note, not sure how you managed such a huge photo in your signature, but it seems like your photos are inserting into every post. You may want to remove, or if it’s in your email signature, edit it to be smaller so it’s easier to follow the thread.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Miichelle Erin]

E-Mail signature?

[Miichelle Erin]

I do graphic and web design so I had it set large. It is not an eMail signature, it is a forum post signature that goes at the bottom if each of my posts, like yours. Is this a better size for you?

[DanaNM]

That looks great! I meant to say forum signature

I was mostly surprised that the site was letting such large images though, as it can be pretty particular sometimes! But it sounds like you are well versed in all the technical stuff so that makes sense.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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