Boys fighting…

[Heather]

So, I am new to the rabbit thing. We got two boys, the person we got them from said one was just a “mix” and the other a dwarf dutch. (Vet, however, didnt agree. Said she would bet money on the “mix” being at least half rex because of his coat/shape/ect..)
But here is my issue, we were told they had always been together with no problems. (Vet aged them at about 3.5 months, so born in July). They have a 36×48 c&c set up that they stay in at night and while we are at work (mainly because my gargantuan cat thinks he is a kitten and can lay on them). So, this morning about 4am we get woken up to the smaller bun screaming. So went and got in the cage and there was fur everywhere! Checked them both out and few nips and missing fur but no blood. So I separated them.
My question here is, is it ok for me to just add on to their cage and separate them with c&c grid? I am working on getting an appointment to have them fixed. When we went for a check in September the vet said their balls were visible yet, so too young to fix.
My other question is, now that they have been apart most of the day, they are both just kind of sulking around and not really playing like they usually do. Is that normal?

[Bam]

It is normal for boy buns to start fighting when they hit puberty. as you have noticed, the fighting can be quite serious. They need to be separated until they are fixed and have healed. Then you can start to bond them for real, starting with a period of pre-bonding. Pre-bonding is recommended for buns that have gotten into a fight. If you keep them separated chances are they can be bonded post neuter, even though this fight seems to have been pretty bad, with one bun screaming.

They are used to be together, so they don’t like being separated now, but it has to be done for their safety and for their future bond. The problem is they could become depressed if you put them in different rooms, but ideally, they shouldn’t be so close now that they can rile each other up and continue their fight. maybe you could place them so they cant see each other but still hear and smell each other? In any case they must be placed so they absolutely can’t reach to bite each other through cage bars or grids. Because they will continue fighting, then lie next to each other by the separating cage bars like the best of friends, then suddenly fight like mad again – because that’s how unbonded rabbits do.

[Heather]

Might see if I can get some chloroplast or even a piece of cardboard to put on grids between them. Right now they are in two separate rooms because all I had handy was a large play pen and the top is open, so had to be able to lock out the cat.
There is a decent size difference between them, and the smaller one was the one making the noise… Nibs (the Dutch) about 2.5lbs and Stripe( “mix”/rex) is only litte over a pound.
Hoping by end of next week we will have an appointment with the vet. But in the mean time will try to get them closer to each other at least.
Should I worry about play time when they arent in their cages? Or should it be ok since they are always monitored when out anyway?

[Nutmeg]

Hey Heather – I had the same thing – my hubby surprised me with a brother and sister… I had to instantly go and buy another cage and just like yours they sulked at being apart but I couldn’t risk them fighting.

They can’t be alone together at all until they are fixed. Not Even for play time.
** Although I had them share the play area – one at a time, not together – so that they got used to the other ones scent out there. Helped with pre-bonding.

You can have the cages side by side, just leaving 6″ gap between so that they can’t fight between the bars.
If no blood was drawn you are probably ok with them not holding grudges over the fight, so that should be ok.

** Oh and on top of what Bam said (which I 100% agree with all of it) just remember it can take a month to two months for their hormones to settle down after they are neutered. They can actually go a little more crazy while they adjust to changes.

Oh and be prepared for a lot of territory pooping and pee’ing. My boy was WAY worse than my female. But this all went away after he was fixed.

Congrats on your new additions

[Heather]

Well, we finally got the c&c added to today and separated. Cage is actually all in one part but there is a double wall with cardboard sandwiched between so they cant get to each other.
So far no one is peeing anywhere but box, just the scattered poop which is easy enough to deal with.
Called and got quotes, so Monday am appointment will be made. So crossing fingers. Read a few places that boy/boy was a tough bond even after being fixed. Hoping they will cooperate and we can get them back together.

[Nutmeg]

That’s great!
I know its harder with two boys, but even harder with two girls… A lot of it will come down to personalities.
Keep us posted

[Heather]

Update: well it has been little over week since we had the boys neutered. Only problem we had on that front was doc said no jumping and playing, but I guess they did not want to listen lol. Never slowed them down a bit.
We let them out one at the time for the first time since the surgery yestersay. (House is over 100yrs old and sorta an open floor plan, so only one big room in front) neither boy went harrass the other through the bars! So guess thats a small win. Hopefully that will continue. When things slow down in a few weeks and I have time off for the holidays, we are going to see if we can manage them out at the same time. Will have 4 people at home during that time to occupy them and see if we can at least have them not beeline to fight with no cage between. Fingers crossed.

[sarahthegemini]

If you’re going to start bonding sessions in a few weeks, make sure you have neutral territory.

[Asriel and Bombur]

I also just want to add that you can’t simply let them out for play time and hope commotion will distract them. You need to actually go through bonding sessions. So no play time. They need to be closely monitored, and sessions need to start out short like no more than 5-10 minutes in length and then increasing gradually the better they do.

[DanaNM]

Yes, just catching up on this now, but agree that you will need to do supervised bonding sessions in a completely neutral space (an area that no bunny has been before).

Even though they lived together before, you also should probably do some pre-bonding cage swaps to help them get used to each other’s new scents (things prob smell very differently since they are mature and also neutered), and help them lose track of who’s territory is who’s. Once they are healed up and their hormones have settled (usually this takes a few weeks for males), you can start swapping who is in what cage every day or two. Do this for a week or a few, depending on how they react. If they seem calm and are not marking all over the place and trying to get at each other when you swap, then you are ready to start bonding sessions.

If you haven’t already, I recommend reading through the bonding info section in the “bunny info” section at the top of the page. And def keep asking questions!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

I have been reading my eyes out. Desperately trying to figure out the safest way to go about this. Problem is I have literally zero place that neither have them been before.
Would it work to put fresh sheets and move them to my bed to do this?
Neither go in the bed room often, but occasionally will sneak in when one of the cats decides to open the door for them ?
It’s been about a month less about a week since they were snipped. Is it too soon to start with them? Cage swaps should be easy since I wash their bedding every three to four days.

[Heather]

I have been swapping their litter pans every other day too when I change the litter.
So far no ones been pissed off about that. Dont know if thats any real purpose tho

[Heather]

I have been swapping their litter pans every other day too when I change the litter.
So far no ones been pissed off about that. Dont know if thats any real purpose tho

[DanaNM]

For boys, three weeks may be enough time, but sometimes there are some hormonal pulses, so if you notice them being very hormonal you might want to wait a bit longer.

The bed could be ok…. but expect them to pee all over it! I also imagine it smells strongly of your home, even with new sheets. I think Sirius&Luna used her dining room table for a lot of her sessions and had good luck.

What about your bath tub? I haven’t had the best luck with my bathtub once sessions got longer (i think mostly because my Bertha is a big 9 lb girl), but lots of people use their tubs, and have good luck if their buns are on the smaller side.

Other ideas are a pen set up at a friends house, or in a back yard. Or your car, or a bin on top of the washing machine…. (these would be stress sessions, but might be helpful).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

Our dining table is small (one cat stretched out takes it over…)
Didnt think about the bathtub.. that might work.

Dont have any where I can safely go with them. My grandma has 6 cats and other two family members have 100+lb dogs.

They still go visit the front of each others cage when one is out to play.
We had a nip incident through the bars when my 7 year old let them out and didnt put the narrow gap pen around the front. (She didnt ask or tell anyone) that was about 12 days ago. But no blood drawn just little scrape on nose.

We have milipeads taking over back yard so not sure that is safe.

Guess I could go sit on the trampoline with them?

Just want to thank everyone for the help and suggestions. We have had every other type of warm blooded animal and never had issues. Think I underestimated the needs of these little guys. But we are getting there just been a little hectic and some re planning lol

[Heather]

Our dining table is small (one cat stretched out takes it over…)
Didnt think about the bathtub.. that might work.

Dont have any where I can safely go with them. My grandma has 6 cats and other two family members have 100+lb dogs.

They still go visit the front of each others cage when one is out to play.
We had a nip incident through the bars when my 7 year old let them out and didnt put the narrow gap pen around the front. (She didnt ask or tell anyone) that was about 12 days ago. But no blood drawn just little scrape on nose.

We have milipeads taking over back yard so not sure that is safe.

Guess I could go sit on the trampoline with them?

Just want to thank everyone for the help and suggestions. We have had every other type of warm blooded animal and never had issues. Think I underestimated the needs of these little guys. But we are getting there just been a little hectic and some re planning lol

[DanaNM]

Oh man, buns on the trampoline… what a funny mental image :p

I would try the tub first and see how that goes. I bonded my first two pairs almost entirely in my bathroom. If you can wipe everything down with a dilute white vinegar solution it will neutralize any smells and make it even less familiar.

Since yours have a history of some scuffling, focus on building trust between them. So when you do start sessions, and they approach each other, just start petting them both a LOT and swap scents. Set a short time goal to start, and always end on a positive note, even if it’s just you petting them.

Have you been swapping cages?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

Well we were going to start in the tub this week, but my bathroom is currently inhabited by a kitten that I went get from a “person” bc her kids cut poor things whiskers TOTALLY off and she was just going to throw the baby outside and be done…. he is pending his new momma coming get him after the first….

So started swapping cages between the buns and that didnt even phase them.
My oldest is home for the next two weeks so going to get him to help me referee the cats so my 25lb monster doesnt torment the poor 3lb kitten while I clean the bathroom and get the buns in there for a few min.
And we are going to remove the cardboard that is between the cages this weekend too. (Still have c&c and two fine mesh grids on each side between them so they cant physically touch each other)

Just been a really psychotic month this month

[DanaNM]

Oh man, yes and dealing with bonding on top of everything just adds a layer of craziness.

And OMG that poor kitten , thank you for saving him!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

So I have to say I’m almost scared to try to do this. Is it better to hold them when introducing them? Just dont want anyone hurt.
Will they initially try to attack each other is that normal?

[DanaNM]

Most buns do not immediately try to attack each other, especially if in neutral, unfamiliar space (much like people, they will want to feel each other out). In my experience the most common thing is for them to explore the space first, then approach each other. They may ask for grooms, nip, try to mount, chase, lunge, or a combo of these. Or they may just boop noses and them continue exploring the area. When they approach each other and get nose to nose, I like to pet both a lot and swap scents. This calms them and makes them think they are being groomed.

I wouldn’t say it’s good to hold them, but some people like to do what’s called “smooshing”, where you place them side by side and pet them both a lot. If they relax into it, that’s awesome. If they try to leave, let them. I prefer to let place them in the bonding area at the same time on opposite sides, and just watch them. If they approach each other, pet pet pet pet.

How do they behave towards each other through the fence? Do they seem chill with each other? Or do they show aggressive behaviors, such as lunging at each other, running the fence, grunting, etc? If they are acting aggressive through the fence I would do pre-bonding for a bit more.

Set some sort time goals for the first few dates, like 3 minutes or less. I know I personally have a tendency to push dates too long in the beginning, hoping for a miracle! Even if the first date is just them sniffing around and not really interacting, still end it on schedule.

It is also important to relax! So try to take some deep breaths and stay calm (easier said than done, I know). You can do it!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

One give zero cares, the other is still aggressive through the bars and taunts. We swapped cages without cleaning and the chill of the two threw a total hissy fit and threw stuff around dumped hay everywhere, he even turned his litter pan upside down…
After I cleaned it all up the next morning, he chilled his beans.
Kitten going to his new home in two weeks so I can reclaim our other bathroom. So we still been swapping stuff around toys bowls litter pans and all. This weekend when I’m off I’m going to take the cage apart and get rid of the visual barrier again. Just want to be able to put some space between them before attempting that again.

[DanaNM]

If one is still aggressive through the bars and throwing fits, then keep pre-bonding for a bit more. Make him deal with the dirt cage! It’s all part of it!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Heather]

Nibs is the one that threw the Temper tantrum to be moved, Stripe is the one still being aggressive through the bars.
So not the same bun causing both problems.
Had someone suggest sitting with them in a small area and spritzing the aggressor with water if a fight started.

Just Leary to do that with it being so cold right now. Dont want to end up at the vet over a cold or anything.

When I hear them starting with each other through the bars, I have been taking a slipper and slamming it on the floor and they both immediately stop and come to their doors and just sit.
So hopefully they will listen that well once out if they tie up.
Even had someone suggest bringing each of the boys separately to a rescue and letting them “speed date” with an already fixed female and just having two set ups. But seeing as I’m currently the only one tending to them, dont really want to add two more because I feel like at that point no one would get the deserved attention and they both seem happy in their own space but they always either have a kid in the cage or are out (one at the time of course) with me after work and on my days off.

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