5mo old refuses to use litterboxes

[hdubs214]

Spinelli is a young girlbun, spayed a month ago, she has headtilt and can’t see out of her down eye. She is extremely happy, friendly, and loves to run laps which seem to help her headtilt. She has no issues jumping into her litterbox, but it’s the only place she won’t use as bathroom. Her main litterbox is an extra large, low entrance, box meant for elderly or disabled buns. When she goes on the floor its scattered and she pees in different places each time. She’s not establishing any pattern or preferences.

Here are the things that I’ve tried:

– She was going on the floor which is a tarp lined with towels for now, so I used one of the peed on towels to line her litter box instead of litter.

– Every day I pick up the poop from the floor and pile it in the litter box. When I clean pee from the tarp I put the pee soaked paper towel in the litter box.

– I bought two more boxes of different sizes. One has a combination of newspaper pills and carefresh natural paper clumps. I put hay on one side and some dirty litter from my other buns in the corner. The other litterbox is just hay. I have seen her lay in the box with litter and sit in the box with hay to eat, but she doesn’t poop or pee in them.

– I have reduced her floor space and increased the litterboxes hoping to make it more convenient to just go in the box instead of the very little floor space, but she still goes on the floor.

– Her pellet bowl is placed in the extra large litter box. All of her hay is only accessible from sitting in the boxes. She’s the only rabbit I’ve ever seen who doesn’t poop while eating. Instead, she eats in the box then poops all over the floor after. I sprinkled pellets throughout the boxes to encourage her to sit in there longer looking for them. But she miraculously never poops or pees in the boxes.

– I give her extra praise and pets when she’s in her litterbox, but it doesn’t seem to encourage her to use it as a bathroom.

Any new ideas?? My other buns were easy to train. They marked their territory, started using one corner as their toilet, that’s where I put the box. Now they use the box no matter what. Very easy. 

I’ve been using this forum for advice for years, this is my first post. I’d really appreciate any help.

[Asriel and Bombur]

Is the head tilt caused by EC by any chance? If your girl does have EC it’s likely the urine everywhere is caused by that. When EC affects the kidneys it can make them pee in odd places and dribble, so that’s a possibility.

Do you have another bunny or just her? If you do she’s probably still pooping everywhere to mark her territory.

[hdubs214]

I just reached out to the shelter to find out if they know the cause of her head tilt. I will let you know what they say.

If she were peeing all over, including in the box and on the floor, I’d assume these were accidents. But she has never pooped or peed in the box. Would EC cause an aversion to using a litterbox? It seems like the list of reasons why she may be going outside the litterbox aren’t mutually exclusive to the reason she won’t go IN the litterbox. They may be different issues?

I do have other rabbits in another room. Her tarp is over a rug that other rabbits once used, so it could be some territorial marking if she’s smelling it beneath the tarp. But usually when my rabbits mark, they scatter poop for a few days then stop. They don’t usually pee all over. And when they are marking, they do at least also poop in their box as they eat hay. She won’t use the box at all. Do you think because the tarp is over the rug, she’s not successfully marking it and continues? Should I let her mark the rug directly? Or remove it from the room? I tried putting dirty litter from the other rabbits in the boxes to encourage her to mark those, but she won’t.

[DanaNM]

How perplexing!

My first thought was a medical issue, possibly a bladder infection, or EC as A&B suggested. I also wonder if there might have been a complication with her spay? Did you have her pre-spay or did you just adopt her? I think ruling those out should be the first step.

It is really odd that she won’t use her box at all. When my buns mark, they usually do it in addition to using their box, not instead of, so there is probably something else going on. I vaguely remember a member a while ago having a bunny that didn’t like to poop or pee while eating hay, so they ended up moving the hay outside the box and it worked a charm. Super strange, and pretty much the opposite of every bunny ever, but might be worth a shot!

If you remove all the litter boxes, will she pick a corner? Or still go all over?

In the meantime puppy pee-pads will probably be your best friend….

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hdubs214]

I found out that she did test positive for EC when she came into the shelter but has completed her antibiotics. I just took her in recently from a previous foster who had her for the past month while she needed medication. I don’t think it’s a UTI because it’s not dribbles, it’s full pee roughly twice at night and twice during the day. Her previous foster mom said she was using the box and floor 50/50 at her house with a towel in the box. The previous mom thinks this baby is just tough to train.

I can try removing her litterboxes and see if she starts to favor a corner. Then put the box back in with the same arrangement her previous foster mom had. I havent seen her pee in the same spot twice. She’s peed everywhere except in her boxes and interestingly, she has not peed inside her hidey-house.

I’d love more ideas to try. I’ll report back with what I learn from removing her boxes. I’ll put hay in one corner and see if she prefers to go far away from her hay, or if she’ll pick a corner once she’s free from my suggestion.

[Asriel and Bombur]

EC isn’t an antibiotic based thing. It’s an actual parasite and it can, unfortunately never be cured. You can kill the spores with deworming meds like Oxibendazole and Panacur, but it’s ultimately something she will have for the rest of her life. I suggest getting her to the vet and on a round of one of the drugs as she could be having a flare up. EC symptoms can happen once in a bunny’s life or several times. My Bombur has kidney complications due to EC and he’s been on 4 rounds of Oxibendazole since February. He dribbles urine and pees everywhere during a flare up. Especially because your girl has head tilt and what appears to be kidney related complications as well, it’s something you’re going to have to consistently monitor her for throughout the course of her life.

[Wick & Fable]

Speaking from my experiences with Wick, I feel like some rabbits don’t really “click” with litter box training. Thinking about it at its core, litter boxes are really something we impose onto rabbits, which is possible because they are naturally inclined to fixate on certain spots to eat and do their business. But we’re designating “this is your toilet”. Putting myself in those shoes, I imagine that myself, liking my toilet as my go-to spot, suddenly being told “Nope. Not the toilet. You need to go in this corner.” I found it difficult to answer Wick’s foot flicks which represent the question, “Why did I have to go in there instead of where I was? Gosh.” Because the answer is, it’s convenient for me, even though you may not think so.

Interestingly, Wick also can eat hay without pooping or peeing. He has 8 sources of hay. 4 are in litter boxes, and the other 4 are fabric feeders in his hutch. For reasons beyond my comprehension, Wick will not poop or pee when eating hay from a fabric feeder, versus it being piled in a box. I’m confident in this because I wanted to use a fabric feeder in the litter box to prevent him from peeing on hay he’d dig through, but after three days, he never peed or poop in that litter box I experimented with. Beyond me.

How are you presenting the hay in the box? Wick seems to like digging for a good piece, and i find that natural inclination goes along with him pooping and peeing in that context.

Wick’s litter box adherent is acceptable, at best. I probably clean two pees a day on average now because he tends to just pee after he’s done a cecotropes eating, and he does that on carpet so he has more traction (or he’ll fall over), which is much lower than it was, and there are some days there are none thank goodness. I did a more aggressive litter training process and consistently do it. I make the same snake hiss sound when I see he is about to pee, and I’ll march up to him, pick him up, and put him in the box and keep him there until he pees. I do this every time. Eventually, it’s now I hiss and get up and he’s already on his way to the box to go pee in it. So again, he doesn’t really see it as something he wants to do, so I had to instill it as he HAS to do it. Or reap the consequence of being brought to the box. For poop, I found that naturally resolved itself as his pee compliance got better. I want to highlight that I don’t punish him or yell at him. I simply created a signal of “I’m now triggered to bring you to this box.”, so he makes he conscious decision whether or not to circumvent that by going there himself.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[hdubs214]

Maybe the antibiotics were preventative from her spay. 

The reason I’m inclined to believe this is behavioral and not medical, is because there is no urine in the several boxes she has in her pen. If it were a lack of bladder control, I think the pee would be everywhere including in the boxes. But it’s never in her boxes and never in her house even when I reduce the floorspace and increase the boxes. She seems to be avoiding using the boxes.

[Dasher]

Bunnies are the most mysterious creatures. Maybe try experimenting with hay in different places or no hay in the litter box and see how she reacts.

[hdubs214]

Wick,

That makes a lot of sense.

Her hay is piled in the box.  She eats the most hay out of the box that’s just hay and no litter. She sits in it and eats for a long time without pooping or peeing. She doesn’t really eat the hay that’s in the corner of the litter box where I’m trying to get her to go. In that box, I have the hay on one side and put the poop from the floor into the other corner. She won’t eat from or use that box. 

She has definitely learned not to pee when I’m in the room, so I don’t have the opportunity to interfere. 

I think I’ll clear all the boxes out of the pen. Line it in puppy pee pads. Leave the box of only hay and maybe another pile option. Then see if she ever comes to a consistent toilet spot. 

[hdubs214]

This doesn’t feel like it’s progressing into any kind of pattern. She pees all over, but never in the box. She was consistently peeing between the legs of the desk so I move the box to that spot, but now she won’t go there. She hops into the box, but doesn’t use it as a bathroom.

[hdubs214]

Here is a photo of the current situation. Also noting that she does not poop or pee in the hay box. I removed hay from the litterbox because since she doesnt go to the bathroom while she eats, I thought the hay was deterring her seeing the litterbox as a toilet. She was consistently peeing between the legs of the desk so I move the box to that spot, but now she won’t go there.

[Wick & Fable]

Have you sat in there with her for long periods of time to intervene and put her in the box when she’s about to pee? She needs guidance it seems, like Wick did.

Also be sure to cycle out those pads. They’ll be a continual reminder that she pees there.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

I remember someone on this forum having a lot of luck training with carefresh bedding (or something similar) because it is so soft and fluffy. Lots of buns like to pee on soft things… You might give that a shot as well?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[hdubs214]

You’re probably right. She could use 24hr supervision to help her learn where to pee. She definitely avoids peeing in front of me. I’ve only seen her pee twice or so.
I had let the pads get that spotted because I was trying to see if there was any pattern. I didn’t notice any, it seems like she’ll pee anywhere, but I don’t let them get that dirty normally don’t worry. 

[hdubs214]

Just to update the forum…
We ended up not being able to train her and gave her to a foster home for special needs buns. We took in one of the fosters from the home to make room for Spinelli. The new foster has aggression issues – but is impeccably tidy.

[DanaNM]

Sorry it didn’t work out, but glad she will be in a home where they can care for her, and that you can give a home to a bun that will be a better fit for your home.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[borya91]

Hey in case anyone ever sees this thread, i wanted to share how it worked with my bun.  I put the carefresh, i think she likes the feel of it.  but i found she does not like if its filled all the way.  she only wanted one small corner of the litter pan with that bedding.  rest she either doesn’t want anything at all or wants hay. (luckily that also makes it really inexpensive as i go through barely any litter just putting in that one corner each day.)   i don’t know if this would ever help anyone.  maybe some buns wouldn’t like it if the whole litter pan has litter.  maybe even trying no litter at all?  i read cat litter is very dangerous for rabbits, i think the carefresh is safe for them even if they eat it.

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