LOTS OF BONDING QUESTIONS

[Buneary]

Hiya! Chibi’s Spay appointment is on January 31st, the day she turns 4 months. I’ve spoken with the vet and she said she will be good to go for surgery by that time, of course I’m a little nervous. Buneary was also 4 months when she was spayed and she recovered beautifully. Anyways, I’ve taken the advice you all have given me, and will be waiting a month post Spay before starting bonding. I’m so unpatient, but for my buns sakes I will do anything. The first day of bonding will be February 28th. Any tips on how to start the first session? I’ve heard many mixed tips from everywhere. Like start off in the biggest room possible, or start in a small area like the bathtub. Of course, all neutral territory. They have gotten to know each other through the cage bars and sharing their play pen (coming out at different times of course) Territorial poops from my older spayed bun have diminished. Trying to nip through the cage bars has not though. I know it’s a month away, but I just really want to make sure I’m prepared and doing it the right way. Keeping them separate has been a hassle, especially when ones out playing and the other one gets jealous. I’ve also been switching them between each other’s cages as sort of ‘pre-bonding’. My plan is to start on February 28th and have bonding sessions everyday after that. I was thinking about buying them a cottontail cottage, but wanted to wait until they were bonded. Would that be a good item to put in the room while bonding? What about outside sessions in an x-pen? I know Buneary is going to nip Chibi, maybe even hard. Why does she nip her? It’s something I know is going to happen in the beginning and I’m not sure what to do. If she nips hard do I end the session right there? I’ve read you should alway try and end every session on a positive note, if a fight breaks out or if one is scared for their life how do you turn that into a positive situation? If Chibi backs down and allows Buneary to be the dominant one (bc she is) will Buneary stop bullying? So many questions for something that’s not going to happen until a while right now, but please give me all the advice and tips you have! I want to do this the right way.

[DanaNM]

Posted By Buneary on 1/20/2018 4:44 PM

Hiya! Chibi’s Spay appointment is on January 31st, the day she turns 4 months. I’ve spoken with the vet and she said she will be good to go for surgery by that time, of course I’m a little nervous. Buneary was also 4 months when she was spayed and she recovered beautifully. Anyways, I’ve taken the advice you all have given me, and will be waiting a month post Spay before starting bonding. I’m so unpatient, but for my buns sakes I will do anything. The first day of bonding will be February 28th. Any tips on how to start the first session? I’ve heard many mixed tips from everywhere. Like start off in the biggest room possible, or start in a small area like the bathtub. Of course, all neutral territory. They have gotten to know each other through the cage bars and sharing their play pen (coming out at different times of course) Territorial poops from my older spayed bun have diminished. Trying to nip through the cage bars has not though. I know it’s a month away, but I just really want to make sure I’m prepared and doing it the right way. Keeping them separate has been a hassle, especially when ones out playing and the other one gets jealous. I’ve also been switching them between each other’s cages as sort of ‘pre-bonding’. My plan is to start on February 28th and have bonding sessions everyday after that. I was thinking about buying them a cottontail cottage, but wanted to wait until they were bonded. Would that be a good item to put in the room while bonding? What about outside sessions in an x-pen? I know Buneary is going to nip Chibi, maybe even hard. Why does she nip her? It’s something I know is going to happen in the beginning and I’m not sure what to do. If she nips hard do I end the session right there? I’ve read you should alway try and end every session on a positive note, if a fight breaks out or if one is scared for their life how do you turn that into a positive situation? If Chibi backs down and allows Buneary to be the dominant one (bc she is) will Buneary stop bullying? So many questions for something that’s not going to happen until a while right now, but please give me all the advice and tips you have! I want to do this the right way.

For the very first session, I prefer a large space, but I’ve done both large and small. The reasoning is that in large spaces, they have space to move away from each other if they feel threatened, so they are less likely to all out fight. In small spaces, they can feel like the have to fight as they can’t escape. I’ve done bath tub bonding before, and it’s been OK… but it’s not my favorite space. For just a quick, “let’s just see if they hate each other”, it can be OK. If the first session in the bathtub doesn’t go well, then don’t try it again for the second. Go for something larger, or stressful (or both!).  My buns have also always quickly learned to escape the tub, so it doesn’t work so well for them.  

I would wait until they are bonded for the cotton tail cottage. Then there is no risk of either one claiming it, and it will help make their area more new and neutral once they are bonded. 

I think an x-pen outside would be great as it’s very neutral and large. Just make sure the grass they are on hasn’t been sprayed with pesticides. And watch out for hawks! It would be ideal if you put a roof over it, like an ez-up or something.

Don’t end the session for nipping.  She is nipping to show her dominance, and that’s normal. Some nips are expected as they establish their hierarchy. But you should stop relentless hard biting, chasing, and circling, as these can lead to fighting. So if she’s nipping and chasing Chibi, then you need to stop that behavior, but don’t end the date right then. If you end the date when she nips, then she learns that she can make the other bunny go away by nipping her! Try to stop the aggression with a loud noise or squirt bottle (vs you pushing them apart).  If Chibi backs down when she is nipped, that’s a good thing, and eventually Buneary should accept that she can be trusted. 

I think in early stages when you think there will be fights and nipping, it’s a good idea to set short time goals. There is a strong temptation (and I think we’ve all succumbed to it) to keep a date going when it’s going well, but often we can push it too far and then a fight breaks out. 

If you have cases where they start scuffling, try to stop it with noise, but stop it however you can to prevent it from turning into a full blown fight. Then I like to smoosh them and pet them both on the head and swap their scents. I will often do this at the start of a date too, especially if they go nose to nose and ask for grooms. 

The idea and hope is that once Buneary trusts that Chibi has fully submitted, then she will stop bullying and they will be bonded soon after that. 

You are asking great questions so feel free to keep posting and asking as things move along! 

I will add that hormonal buns can make spayed buns crazy, so hopefully she will be less aggressive towards Chibi once she is spayed.  

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Buneary]

Thank you so much!!! I’ve never bonded before, so all your advice is super helpful. I will get back to you in a month and let you know how it’s going! Again, thank you!

[Bun0901]

Hey so my cousin is moving and she’s giving me her two buns bc she could not sell them. They’re a bonded pair unneutured and I have a male unneutured who is 10 months. I was thinking of having them in separate cages next to each other but w enough space in between. Help this is happening tm.

[Deleted User]

Bun0901: It might be more helpful to you to have your own thread so people can respond to your specific questions. But, to surface answer yours: if they are all not neutered, they all need to be completely separated at all times. Bunnies that aren’t altered are not bonded, and fights can break out at a moment’s notice. All three bunnies will need separate cages and separate play times until 1 month after the final bunnies neuter. The move to your place will be stressful on your cousins bunnies, and could very well cause them to fight. hope this helps

[Bun0901]

Oh okay I will do that , thank you so much and I do plan on neutering them all. Hope everything works out fine thank you

[Buneary]

UPDATE: Chibi had hopped over her xpen and into Buneary’s (I was so surprised, their pens were half a foot away from each other) I was in the bathroom when I heard a loud squeal, I immediately ran over there to find Chibi sitting there in Buneary’s xpen, and Buneary hiding in her hidey house. I split them up and checked them individually for any wounds, and I didn’t find anything. I’m almost certain it was Buneary who hurt Chibi, and when Chibi squealed it startled her so she hid. Bunnies only squeal when they’re in pain, right? I couldn’t find any markings though, maybe I’ll have to check again later today more thoroughly..Anyways, I know this incident was my fault, I should of been watching both of them. Will this affect them bonding in the near future? Chibi was I’m assuming the one who squealed, but was acting normal (eating, zoomies, binkies) both bunnies acting like it didn’t even happen. Chibi’s Spay is in less than a week, I’m excited! On step closer to them being bonded, any tips for the whole spay process? (What to bring, what to do post Spay)

[Mikey]

Rabbits only squeal when they feel their life is threatened. They may or may not have been hurt. It could be that Chibi was just very startled and frightened.

[DanaNM]

Unfortunate but shouldn’t be a deal breaker, just make sure it can’t happen again! It’s amazing how bunnies can get at each other during this phase.

Hard to know who squealed, but I agree it was likely out of fear as the other attacked. Moose once squealed during a bonding session with Bertha, even though she wasn’t biting him. She had lunged at him and pressing him against a wall, and I think it was his way of saying he was afraid and not trying to fight back. I think some bunnies are more vocal than others. Moose grew up with his brothers so he might have learned that squealing would stop his siblings from picking on him.

Anyway, with your two, did you find clumps of fur (indicating a scuffle)?

I haven’t dealt with spay recovery myself, but make sure the vet gives you pain medication, and have critical care on hand in case she won’t eat. You will also want to restrict her space so she can’t jump up or down on things, and keep her area calm, quite, and warm while she is recovering. Also, she should NOT be fasted before her spay. If the vet asks you to, they are not a good rabbit vet and you should take her elsewhere.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Buneary]

ANOTHER UPDATE: Chibi was spayed 2 weeks ago, I will start bonding her and Buneary in 2 weeks (4 weeks of recovery) they have been seeing each other through their cages, Buneary would try to bite her through the bars before but that behavior has diminished ever since Chibi got spayed. Buneary would lay next to Chibi’s cage, sniff her, binky in a circle and run back to look at her (10 times in a row). She looks like she’s comfortable with Chibi being here now. SUCH a huge change so quickly after she was spayed. I’m wondering if Chibi even had all her hormones yet before she was spayed. We spayed her right at four months, so I’m wondering if her hormones had fully developed before her spay? It would make more sense on to why Buneary is instantly so okay with her now, she might’ve not had as much hormones as she could of when she was spayed, so the little bit she had is now disappearing since her spay. Let me know if this makes sense or not. I’m so anxious to start bonding them, but I know Chibi needs time to heal. I just hope how Buneary is acting towards them being housed next to each other are good signs of them being a good match.

[DanaNM]

That’s really great that Buneary isn’t acting as aggressively.

4 weeks might not be quite enough time. The amount of time for hormones to drain is variable, but I’ve heard anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 months. I believe the minimum recommended on this forum is usually 6 weeks, but searching through older threads some forum leaders have also said 4 weeks is usually enough.
I’ve been trying to find a real reference, because I think sometimes recommendations get longer and longer, because people want to be safe about things.

Since Chibi and Buneary fought before, I would err on the safe side, and wait a few more weeks. But, you can start pre-bonding (cage swaps) now that she is physically nearly healed, or you might want to wait another week.

Since they fought before, I would go for 4 weeks of pre-bonding, then you should also be on good shape concerning her hormones. You can also gauge whether Buneary’s behavior towards her improves even more.

I have personally done less pre-bonding, but in those cases the bunnies seem very relaxed around each other, they have stopped marking and running the fence, and speed dates were very positive. In cases where the bunnies are aggressive, more pre-bonding can be really helpful.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Manda]

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

[Manda]

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

[Manda]

Congratulations on Chibi’s spay! I’m sure both buns are both relieved to have those hormones out of the way! I waited about 2 weeks after Sophia’s spay(4 weeks recovery time) to start bonding- you can use your judgments and your instincts on when to start- you know your buns the best Just start very slowly and cautiously. I would start with a speed date 5 minutes or so just to have them in neutral territory and bring some yummy veggies and treats to the date. I have a link for a really great bonding tutorial that helped me (I’m about to bond for the 5th time in my bunny life experience over 15 years). You are amazing owner and your buns are very lucky!

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

[Buneary]

Thank you all for your feedback!!!
UPDATE: IVE STARTED BONDING.
Extremely stressful.. I’m always worried Buneary is going to lunge at Chibi and attack her once she gets close. I’ve started bonding in our laundry room, it’s a decent size and neutral territory. The first day was probably the best day. They ignored each other. Chibi was in the corner, afraid to go near Buneary. And Buneary was exploring the room. When they got close, Buneary would nip her pretty hard and it would startle Chibi. It always makes me anxious seeing Buneary nip her so hard because I don’t know if it’s hurting her. So yeah, first day they ignored each other, very little interaction. 10 minutes. Good start. Second day was my mistake of having the session too long… this time it was 15 minutes. I tried a longer session so Chibi had time to open up a bit more, she had been sitting in the same corner terrified of Buneary. It went well at first. Buneary would go up to Chibi, they’d boop noses, and Buneary would walk away. This happened 3 times under 10 minutes. Once we started getting near the 15 minute mark, Buneary started nipping her hard again. Buneary would charge at her trying to nip/bite (I can never tell which one) and I believe this started happening because I had kept them there too long. I’ve been prebonding for 2 months now (switching cages) and I think it’s helped a lot. They don’t fight right away anymore which is good. I have so much anxiety while bonding though. Whenever they get close, I’m so afraid bunearys going to attack. Chibi is on the smaller side and is fragile. Am I doing this alright? I think the laundry room is an okay space for them, I’ll continue to use it as their space and will start stress bonding with car rides too. Looking at how Buneary is acting towards Chibi now, how long do you think until they’re bonded? Like I said, there’s been nipping, but they’ve been going up to each other, sniffing each other, then walking away. Let me know when I should increase the time of the sessions.

[Buneary]

Thank you all for your feedback!!!
UPDATE: IVE STARTED BONDING.
Extremely stressful.. I’m always worried Buneary is going to lunge at Chibi and attack her once she gets close. I’ve started bonding in our laundry room, it’s a decent size and neutral territory. The first day was probably the best day. They ignored each other. Chibi was in the corner, afraid to go near Buneary. And Buneary was exploring the room. When they got close, Buneary would nip her pretty hard and it would startle Chibi. It always makes me anxious seeing Buneary nip her so hard because I don’t know if it’s hurting her. So yeah, first day they ignored each other, very little interaction. 10 minutes. Good start. Second day was my mistake of having the session too long… this time it was 15 minutes. I tried a longer session so Chibi had time to open up a bit more, she had been sitting in the same corner terrified of Buneary. It went well at first. Buneary would go up to Chibi, they’d boop noses, and Buneary would walk away. This happened 3 times under 10 minutes. Once we started getting near the 15 minute mark, Buneary started nipping her hard again. Buneary would charge at her trying to nip/bite (I can never tell which one) and I believe this started happening because I had kept them there too long. I’ve been prebonding for 2 months now (switching cages) and I think it’s helped a lot. They don’t fight right away anymore which is good. I have so much anxiety while bonding though. Whenever they get close, I’m so afraid bunearys going to attack. Chibi is on the smaller side and is fragile. Am I doing this alright? I think the laundry room is an okay space for them, I’ll continue to use it as their space and will start stress bonding with car rides too. Looking at how Buneary is acting towards Chibi now, how long do you think until they’re bonded? Like I said, there’s been nipping, but they’ve been going up to each other, sniffing each other, then walking away. Let me know when I should increase the time of the sessions.

[DanaNM]

The strategy that I’ve been using at the moment (at the suggestion of my local rescue coordinator) is to stop nipping and fights BEFORE they happen by petting them both a LOT whenever they approach each other. This will also help calm you down! Turn it into a big petting fest. This can be especially helpful when they’ve fought in the past. I found my two that I’m currently working with were getting more and more aggressive each date, so we had to break that cycle. The goal is to build a positive and calm association with approaching each other.

Eventually they will need to decide who will be dominant, but ultimately they need to trust each other and not be afraid.

I really think this technique will help your two. So yeah, any time they come near each other, pet them a lot!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Manda]

I agree with DanaNM- turn the whole experience into a relaxing blissful time. So when they associate spending time together they associate with good warn and fuzzy feelings. Just pet them until comatose and do your best to breathe and remain calm and remember you are in charge. Your buns will pickup on your nervuousness so just be ready to break up and stop any fights or nipping and say “no be nice” and then pet pet pet pet in all their favourite places. Bring some veggies too or yummy treats. You could always smear a little mushed banana on their noses to entice grooming too(even if by accident)

Hope it’s going well!

[Buneary]

Thank you guy! I’ve been doing 15 minute sessions for two weeks, little progress. In the beginning of each session they will go up to each other, sniff each other, then walk away. But after 5 or 10 minutes Buneary lunges at Chibi, trying to bite her. Sometimes it’s nipping, but sometimes it’s full out “I don’t like you I’m going to bite you” bites. I raise my voice and tell her no and I block her from biting her. It doesn’t help at all that Chibi is a lop – Her ears are the first thing Buneary always goes for since it’s so easy to get to. She has one bite mark on each ear, if did draw blood but only a tiny bit. I usually get frustrated and I separate them 5 minutes after that. I’ve been trying different locations. Laundry room, hallway, same outcome. Bathtub/bathroom is worse, Chibi can’t run away so Buneary’s constantly biting her. Car rides is the only place they seem to get along, even snuggling and lightly nipping. I don’t like doing car rides everyday though, it stresses them out. Is it okay to do it everyday? Chibi let’s her nip her, puts her head down every time Buneary comes near, and just wants to be her friend. It’s buneary who is stopping their friendship from progressing. Chibi has already backed down many times letting Buneary know she is the dominant one. I just don’t understand why she keeps biting her. It’s scary and stressful. I get major anxiety when they come face to face, an injury on the face terrifies me. I know I need to be calm, this is all so stressful and I’m running out of ideas. Veggies/banana on head won’t work, Buneary doesn’t like either of those things (Yes she doesn’t like veggies, still trying to get her to try) When she bites her and draws blood I feel so bad even if it’s a tiny mark. Should I keep the session going even if she bites her? I’m sorry for all the questions, I just really need more advice /:

[DanaNM]

Are you trying the petting technique I described?

Also, you said they are fine for the first few minutes, so you need to stop the session after the first few minutes, BEFORE Buneary tries to bite.

Chibi putting her head down is not a sign of submission, it’s a dominance display, as she is asking for grooms. Buneary wants to be dominant, Chibi isn’t submitting if she is putting her head down.

All of that aside, if Chibi is getting blood drawn then you need to take a break and to let them forget each other, and assess whether you want to continue.

If you are petting and they are still biting that hard, I think you should take a month break (with no pre-bonding), then go back to pre-bonding for another 4 weeks.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Buneary]

Yes I’ve been petting Buneary constantly. I think it calms her down a little, not enough to stop her from lunging if Chibi gets too close. And oh okay, thank you for clearing that up. So Chibi putting her head down Is saying “groom me, I’m dominant” ? Then I can see why they’re still deciding who is who. And I’m curious as to how seperating them completely then trying again benefits? Not saying it doesn’t work, just curious behind the method. And I’ll definitely start doing shorter sessions. The goal here is to prevent any biting at all, and if 5 minute meetings each day prevents that then okay. I’ll increase the time if and when I think they’re ready. And is it okay if during these 5 minute sessions they don’t even interact at all? I might be pushing it, keeping the sessions longer waiting for them to interact. Also how many 5 minute sessions can I do each day? Thank you so much, again, sorry for all the questions.

[Buneary]

Also – Chibi LOVES banana. If I put some on Buneary’s head to imitate grooming, how do you think Buneary would take that? If she’s the dominate one, does she want to be the one that’s groomed? Should I do this later, when they’re more comfortable around each other?

[DanaNM]

It’s probably too early for the banana trick. I found it successful when they get to the point where they are peaceful together, but not grooming yet.

The idea with separating them is to allow them to forget that the other bunny hurt them. Right now if Buneary is biting with the intention to hurt (which she is, if she is drawing blood), then Chibi might start becoming very afraid and unlikely to trust her.

It might seem counter intuitive, but in order for a rabbit to bond, they must learn to trust that the other will not attack them, and they must not be afraid of the other. They have to trust the other rabbit will not hurt them if they submit to them. If Buneary is biting Chibi any chance she gets, then Chibi will not trust her enough to submit, and you will get caught in a cycle of fighting. Since Chibi is too afraid to submit, then Buneary will keep attacking. And so on….

Rabbits can hold grudges, so the more they bite and fight, the harder it will be to bond them. A rabbit that fears the other will not bond properly, and the bond is likely to break in the future.

If you aren’t quite ready to take a full break, you can try really short sessions (and car rides, if that works), and see how it goes, but if it seems like they aren’t calming down after a week, then a full break and then a lot of pre-bonding is necessary.

Female female bonds are often the hardest, and there are some bunnies that just aren’t a good match. If after a full break and lots more pre-bonding they still are fighting, then it would prob be best to keep them as singles, and maybe try to bond each with another bun (prob a male) of their choosing.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Buneary]

Thanks again! Good news, there’s been progress!! Stress bonding in the car has been helping a lot. Yesterday I took them both with me to my parents house. They were in the car together for about 30 minutes, had a TWO HOUR session when we got there, and another 30 minute car ride going home. It went great! They snuggled the whole time in the car. Buneary constantly shoving her head under chibi’s chin. Chibi doing the same. Are they telling each other to groom each other? Chibi groomed her back a little bit the car ride there. The car ride going home Buneary was grooming her for at least 5 minutes! During the session at my parents house Buneary did nip quite a few times, but no blood, just fur. She also flopped and laid down a few times, letting me know she was comfortable! Chibi doesn’t look so scared anymore, she was just chomping on hay the whole time. I noticed they’re starting to mirror each other also. Im excited, it’s only a little bit but it’s still progress. Im just worried about how they’re going to figure out who’s boss. How do I get Chibi to groom Buneary? Chibi wants to be the one groomed, and i don’t think Buneary likes that. Also in the car Chibi would rest her head on Buneary’s back, I don’t know how she felt about this. How do you get a bunny to submit? They each put their head down to be groomed, and I try to pet them both to imitate it but Buneary gets mad when Chibi doesn’t groom her and nips her.

[DanaNM]

That’s really great! Stress sessions can be really really helpful when the buns want to fight.

Just be really careful not to stress them too much (make sure they are eating and pooping fine after the stress sessions).

In terms of getting one to submit, that part is honestly up to them to figure out. They will just need to reach some sort of agreement on their own, and eventually it sounds like they will. When both buns are stubborn about being dominant it can take time. I think it really comes down to learning that they can trust one another. If they are very scared of the other bunny, they won’t want to groom them.

Any grooming at all this point is a huge improvement, so I would stick with car rides for now (and sessions at the other house when you have time), just keep an eye on their stress levels. It’s OK to take a day off here and there to make sure they stay healthy.

Don’t stress too much if they don’t groom each other too much yet. The main goal is to have things not escalate to a fight when one bunny doesn’t get what they want!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

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