Pre. Vet trip

[Dougster_thelop]

Hi all,
Happy new year.
Just wondered if you could all give me some advise.
I will be taking my bunny to the vet tomorrow as soon as I finish work in the morning but wondered if I could tell my partner to do anything tonight.
So basically I think he might have some go stasis he W hasn’t eaten well say the last 72 hours I had some ranitidine from before (post op)so I’ve been giving him a bd dose like before. He’s pooing a little bit not much but he’s only had this in his now for 24 hours max. I’ve felt him tummy and given it a bit of a rub to try and relieve some of the gas and he did start eating a little bit of hay when I did it. He is a bit distended. He also hasn’t weed in over 24 hours which worries me he’s done this before hence not taking him straight to the vet but its all adding up now.
I’ve also just found a hock on his foot which he’s never had before either.
If anyone had any advice just to stop me worrying so much or has any previous experiences to share please say. I’ll be taking him to the vet like at ten tomorrow morning as soon as they have an appointment anyway but just thought I’d ask.
Thank you

[Bam]

Ranitidine and gentle tummy rubs are all good. Make sure he’s warm enough, sometimes poorly buns get hypothermic. It’s not super-difficult to take a bun’s temp if you’re two people. Here’s a HoWcast video on how to do it. If he is cold, you need to warm him up. Sometimea you can do that by sitting the bun in your lap and warming him up with your own body heat. You can use a hot water bottle or hand warmers, but you must make sure there’s room enough for him to move around from the heat source if he wants to.

You can syringe feed water, but you need to take great care so the bun doesn’t choke. If he’s eating very little you should syringe him pellet mash (pellets soaked in water). Make the mix runny so he gets extra fluids in him. You can also give baby food or canned plain pumpkin.

If you have metacam left you can give that + ranitidine, but keep in mind metacam lowers body temp.

If the hock is an open sore or seem infected you can clean it with weak chlorhexidine solution or diluted iodine disinfectant, if it’s just a pink callus, leave it alone until you see the vet.

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you.
Turns out he was cold, and they’ve found a lump which they aren’t sure what is happening. Given him some pain relief, ranitidine and done fibre paste and going to give him 24 hours. He may have to go to theatre or be put to sleep.
Such a horrible day

[Luna]

Sending recovering vibes for your bun. I hope he gets better!

[Bam]

I’m so sorry. The lump could perhaps be be an obstruction or cecal inpaction. Here’s some info on that: http://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/. Sometimes sub Q fluids help. Hydration is any case key when there’s a blockage. Did the vets do x-rays?

We have a member here (Muchelle) whose bun (Kuro) had to have surgery for a blockage. It went well, but it was really scary.

[LittlePuffyTail]

(((((Recovery Vibes))))))) Hope things improve!

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you for all the lovely messages. There was no X-rays or anything yesterday. He said to give him the “benefit of the doubt” for 34hoirs with the meds and today we will have to make a decision.
I do have pet insurance so I may get him reffered to a specialist as my vets is only small and the gymuy I say yesterday now isn’t in so it would be a different vet doing the op.

Yesterday he said sometimes here’s no point in them doing bloods and uss and they might aswell just do a laparotomy not sure if he was saying that because he truly believed it or because he was trying to save me money.
He has passed some stool overnight and did eat a load of parsley and some hay last night. He’s refusing this morning to eat his pellets though- I’m going to try the mashed up idea like you said. And I’m still having to force fluids down him he won’t drink out of a bottle nor his bowl.

[Bam]

I’m glad he’s eaten some parsley and pooped! If he eats a lot of parsley he’d need to drink less because parsley has lots of water in it.

I would try to get him to a specialist vet, if you can afford it. Regarding the bloodworks -they’re pretty expensive if you decide to do a full blood panel and you can only find out so much from them in an emergency situation like this. I’d want to ask a specialist vet about it. I do think they’d want to do x-rays because x-rays can say where the blockage is at, and if it is a blockage.

[Dougster_thelop]

The appointment today isn’t until 1730 as I’m dragging my partner with me but I’m 99 percent sure we will ask to be move elsewhere. I don’t want to put him under a GA when there no point and they don’t actually know what they are going to do.
Do you know how much I should be trying to get him to drink I put it into google and it said like 100 mls but that seems loads I only have him like 20 yesterday and I didn’t see him drink anything but with the parsley I’m guessing he got a lot more than I thought

[Muchelle]

I replied to the pm writing here so the forum will keep me updated about this thread

[Vienna Blue in France]

I would be more concentrated on the eating and pooping part…. fluids can be got by food. Mine don’t drink anything.
Keep feeding, syringing and massaging gently. You can lift his back end up slightly with your fingers by putting your hand under his belly, to help any gas escape quicker (air rises).

(((( big hugs ))))

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you I will try this on a moment.

[Bam]

Here’s a good HowCast video on how to massage a bun that has gas pain:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LbyC6CWbm5M

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you there’s some strange noises Comingout. He’s eating hay as I do it too

[LittlePuffyTail]

Yay for eating and poos!!!

[Dougster_thelop]

So we’ve just been to the vets and we’ve got to pick him up again shortly and take him to a 24 hour vets.
They’re going to give him some pain meds and put a cannula in so IV treatment tonight. Then tomorrow we have to pick him back up to have a X-ray and uss tomorrow day and then take it from there.
He hasn’t weed since yesterday at the vets so about 30 hours now so they’re not sure what’s wrong with him.
She said it could be his kidneys but then she said I can feel something but it’s too far down to be his kidney and then she said she couldn’t feel them.
Don’t think we will have any answers till late tomorrow ?

[Gordo and Janice]

Yes (((Recovery Vibes))) for Dougster

[Bam]

Recovery vibes for (((((Dougster)))))

[Dougster_thelop]

He’s all tucked in for the night now at the vets. His glucose apparently is fine, she couldn’t get any more blood off him to send off as he wasn’t playing ball so she’s going to do that tomorrow when they do the tests.
Apparently his heart rate is really low only 100 that was pre fluid bolus and post- they’re going to do another one just to make sure it isn’t just dehydration.
Thank you all for your help today and kind words. It’s jre if Doug was feeling up to it he’d send you all bunny kisses. Xx

[Dougster_thelop]

Update: His bladder was full of thick sludgy urine, which has now been emptied
Possible causes are UTI or raised calcium in blood, which could be a problem
However on the scan his kidneys didn’t look full of calcium deposits which is a good sign but we’d have wait for the results tomorrow
He had a sedation for the investigations and now we’ve just noticed him head tilting so you think this is just a side effect to the sedation and it’ll go away or should we be really worried

[Muchelle]

If he had the IV port in his ear it’s something that can happen. if he had the port for a long time, keep an eye on that ear…

but it’s wonderful news he doesn’t need to be cut open! sooo relieved

[Dougster_thelop]

So they still don’t know what’s wrong really. The urine cultures didn’t really show anything. We are still treating a uti he can’t wee himself at the moment. We keep having to take him in to them be sedated to have his bladder expressed. We had to see a different vet today and she mentioned that our vet mentioned seeing what happens until Tuesday and then make a decision on high we weren’t aware about and dread

[Bam]

It’s really great that he doesn’t have to have tummy surgery. I’m very sorry to read he’s still poorly, though. How’s the head tilt now?

Rabbits, unlike most other mammals, absorb all calcium from the food they eat, so they can pretty easily get too high blood calcium levels. My Bam had elevated Ca in August last year, so I was told to immediately stopp kale and black kale and spinach. Luckily he loves fennel and romaine lettuce.

[Dougster_thelop]

No head tilt now. I told the vet and we are querying whether it was the Valium or not. His bloods didn’t show high calcium it do his kidneys have deposits but I think once he starts eating hay again we are going to cut back on everything and see what happhappens makes. Have you ever or hgot are if anyone mannually emoting a bladder?

[Muchelle]

How is it going? Is he better?

[Dougster_thelop]

I didn’t realise you had posted. I’m going to tell you all a little sorry and then I need some help please.
He been doing well the vet was happy he was weeing himself pooing like crazy and running around so we stopped his gut stimulants, and gave final doses of antibiotics and metacam. He is on pancur until bloods results are back but we were doing fine.
Yesterday morning I came back from a night shift no wee thought give him the day see what happens anyway still no wee and he’s a bit quiet but really moving much and has really slowed down on eating. His poop is really small too
So I took Doug to the vets. It’s a loccum vet in he wanted to transfer him for a cut before evening getting him in but I argued with the vet about restarting meds. (Because I know he isn’t perfect he isn’t like he was)He felt his bladder nothing in it. He looked at his eyes thought he was fine anyway though he might be dry so have him some fluids subcut. He took him away said he would give him some gut stimulants and more pain meds we talked about the names he was on before so I presumed he would have the same.
I get him Home put him in his run and he’s really drowsy did wonder why but thought jeep a close eye on him( he’s still upstairs now) I put the medicines away and I did say to him we still have loads left from before he said read the bottle they tell you next time stop give them. Checking them they are different doses to before like we are use to twice a day and now one is once the doses are all different like I don’t understand. He’s also given buprecare which must be why he’s drowsy. I never got told this and I’m pretty annoyed by it too. Why the hell has he given him an opioid and then never told me he did!
I get home check the bottle there different stuff and it’s been prescribed differently for the same drugs we had before like it was twice a day and now it’s 8 hourly and the antibiotic is once a day whe before it was twice.
Also the pain med he’s been given is apparently an opioid and we had an nsaid before so I’m annoyed at that. He didn’t tell me any of this. Doug currently can’t even hold his head up.
It then gets better I go to change his tray so I can make sure I know what is new and I’ve found a big wee hiding behind all the hay. Like wtf! I don’t know what to do!
Why he decided to wee there I don’t know and why I never look is another question. But I don’t trust this vet.
I want to not give the antibiotic because he has weeed and obviously the uti isn’t there? Or stopping him weeing? I don’t want to give the buprecare if I have to give anything I want to give metacam which I do have so I could give that instead. And then the gut stimulants I’m happy giving until he starts eating? What does everyone think of that or am I just being silly. Which you’re all fine to call me

[Muchelle]

No probs! Glad he’s still hanging in there!
Of course can’t know the details, but playing around with med doses and admininstration time is something that we had to do as well to find the way K would tolerate better the meds, so this makes me think the vet is trying to see if slowing down the doses Doug can get benefit from them more than the old setting.

Opioids… I’m conflicted about it cause they def helped my bun a lot, but I would give him half or less of the prescribed dose cause they made him too drowsy. Obviously I called the vet and told them “listen, the bun’s too drugged, I ain’t giving him this much as you wrote”.
Your vet probably prescrived a bomb like that to completely erase the chance that Doug’s having gut/bladder pains during the whole antibiotic/gut stimulant situation and from the bladder situation from earlier.

So, I’d call the vet and discuss about this issue calmly and ask his reasons. I mean you’re a healthcare professional as well, he should trust you’d understand if he gave you the details. In the meanwhile I’d give a try to the antibiotic and stimulants with the new doses etc to see if they’re better like this.

Btw, how’s the poop? Even if small of misshapen, does it come out regularly? Is he eating and drinking or is he still on force feeding? Was he dehydrated when you got him again to the vet?

Keep a close eye on his water, if you’re using a bottle switch to a bowl (sick buns may prefer the bowl), and it’s possible that Doug will forget about his litter training and go pee in hay (even sleep in it…), so remember to check everything. Especially because if he sleeps in it and isn’t feeling good enough to groom his little butt, you’ll have an urine scald on hand and let me tell you, that’s annoying.

In conclusion… keep pushing!! fight!

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you. So he still out of it I can’t get anything into like al fluids have just drilled out it’s as he can’t swallow. So earlier he was eating a little and the vet new that.
The vet thought he was slightly dehydrated I don’t think he was but he gave him some sub cut fluids anyway.
He has been eatin by himself but he’s also on recovery stuff too so you have to syringe feed him that at times too as he doesn’t go for it much prefers his greens.
I feel like I shouldn’t have taken him in today and just given him the gut stimulant we had here. Really wise it was my vet in and not he loccum.
Really don’t trust him and that sounds awful

[Muchelle]

Damn, he sure got a strong dose of that buprecare. If he’s too drugged to eat by himself, syringe feed him *slowly* both critical care and some water too. It’ll help him get around too if his body has food to process and keep all the chemicals going (idk how scientific this is, but it’s what I did when K was too drugged).

Well, you reacted like anyone with a sickly bun would do, don’t beat yourself for it! I’m sure you can iron out this situation with the vet and also you can find another one to get a second opinion

[Bam]

As Muchelle says, with pain meds you have to suss out what suits your bunny best. My dog got a medicin for her back pain and the dose prescribed was quite ok for her weight, but she was like a zombie on it. So we had to cut down the dose to 1/3.

If you like to you can tell us what meds Dougster has been prescribed and the dosage of each and how much Dougster weighs. We can then help you calculate and check so the doses are the same as Medirabbit recommends.

With some medicines there’s quite a big therapeutic window, meaning that you can give anything from a very small dose to a much larger one, depending on what the prescribing vet thinks is suitable for the problems the patient is having. Metacam (Meloxicam an NSAID for buns) can be given in doses of 0,1 ml per kilo body weight up to 1,5 ml per kilo body weight. It is however a drug that can affect the kidneys, so if your vet suspected/suspects a kidney issue, that might be the reason why your vet prescriped the opioid instead. The problem with opioids is that they slow down the gut. Here’s Medirabbit’s list of rabbit safe pain killers, with dosages: http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm

I can’t quite make out if you’re not giving him the antibiotics. If you do, you can check it against Medirabbit’s list of safe antibiotics. It has dosages and side effects listed:
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

I hope you can get in touch with your real vet soon. It always feels better to have your “own” vet. Sub Q fluids can be given “just in case” – it wont harm. Sometimes it really perks a sick bunny up.

Its very common when buns feels sick that they dont bother with going to the litterbox, but pee and poop someplace else.

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you.
So I wasn’t going to give the antibiotic.
It’s been 7 hours and he still can’t control himself. He’s sat on us and just slipping- I’ve tried giving him stuff but it’s like he can’t swallow. I’ve neber seen him like this before

[Muchelle]

Is there an emergency vet you can contact, just to have a quick phone opinion? Seven hours is a lot, do you know how much pain med he was given?

[Dougster_thelop]

I only know why it may say on the invoice. But I can’t fogire out the dose given as it doesn’t even say on the bottle it just says how many mls I need

[Bam]

It sounds like he needs to be seen by a vet now.

[Dougster_thelop]

Update- Dougies blood results cane back and he has encephalitozoon cuniculi and an extremely high result.
He had a really bad night yesterday we shall be going to the vets this evening to stop his pain for him.
Thank you for all your support x

[Bam]

I’m so very sorry to read this. Sometimes vets try a corticosteroid injection as a last resort for e cuniculi. Oxibendazole instead of fenbendazole is suggested in this article:
https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/management-of-head-tilt-in-rabbits/

But you know best, he is your bunny. We can’t let them suffer.

[Vienna Blue in France]

So very sorry for you. Prolonging suffering is the worse thing that we can do for our furbabies.
((( Dougie ))))

[Dougster_thelop]

Thank you for all the messages.
Sorry for the late reply I just had to sign off.
So we were treating it but then Dougie was slowly becoming paraslysed and they think what was happening was the Panacur was treating it but the cysts etc formed on his spine were breaking down and his body was too far damaged. As much as we wanted imhim to stay in our lives- he was a bunny full of binks and the fact he couldn’t do that nor eat wasn’t fair on him. You could see the frustration on his face when he couldn’t move. I wouldn’t wish this in any one.
Thank you for all your support xx

[Bam]

I’m so very sorry. You obviously loved him very much and tried very hard to help him. Thank you for updating, I wish it weren’t so sad news.

Binky free, sweet ****Dougie****

[Luna]

I’m so sorry Dougsterthelop. You did your absolute best getting him medical care, and he knows all your efforts were filled with love. 

Binky free Doug

[Author]

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