Lots of Bonding Questions

[DogRN]

OK, so I haven’t officially introduced myself and my bun and I am sorry in advance if this ends up being long.

I adopted my rabbit, Moxie, from a local rabbit rescue at the beginning of September. She is the first rabbit I have owned in my adult life. I had rabbits when we were kids, but my knowledge back then was not great. I am a Certfied Vet Tech and worked for years at a small animal and exotics practice, so I got the opportunity to work with a lot of rabbits (and see some cool medical stuff involving rabbits). This is where I learned most of what I know (and this forum–which I have been reading obsessively for over a year). I grew to have a deep love and respect for rabbits working at the animal clinic. I now manage behavior and training at a Humane Society.

Anyways, Moxie is perfect in every way. She is a large Harlequin (I will post pictures when I figure it out).  She is between 10 and 11 pounds. She is estimated to be between 1 and 2 years of age and she is spayed. She was originally found outside as a stray. She was in rescue and then in a foster home for about 6 months. She is calm and affectionate and has been the perfect addition to my home, which includes several dogs and a cat. She never batted an eye at her other furry siblings and they all get along well. Moxie has a large x-pen where she spends her time when I am not home. She is able to be out for several hours a day, basically any time I am home. She has great litterbox habits and has never chewed anything but her toys. She has formed a very interesting relationship with my cat. They seek out each other’s company and often lay next to each other and groom each other.

I worry that while Moxie is in her x-pen she is lonely. I had always figured that when I finally got a rabbit, I would have 2, as I know they are social and benefit from having a bond mate. We always have rabbits at the shelter where I am employed, and the rescue I got Moxie from offers bunny speed dating. I have read every thread regarding bonding rabbits and I am a bit nervous. BUT, there is currently a rabbit at my shelter that I am completely in love with. He was found outside as a stray and appears to be a mini lop. He definitely seems like a baby and is between 2 and 4 pounds if I had to guess. He is a male and would have to be neutered first before anything could hapen.

Question Time:

-There would be a big size difference between these two if it did end up working out, is that a huge factor to consider? Does anyone have bonded rabbits of very different sizes?
-I would be able to speed date at my shelter very easily, but how long must I wait after this guy is neutered to do that? Can speed dates happen before the months a person would normally wait before doing official intros?
-Is a very large x-pen enough space for two bunnies to live happily while I am not home? I would love another big rabbit, but I fear they wouldn’t have enough space.
-Does it matter one way or another that the male is probably a baby? Is it better to introduce an adult rabbit to another adult rabbit?
-Is it possible for two rabbits living together to still have good litterbox habbits? Do people with bonded pairs have multiple litter boxes inside their enclosers or is one sufficient?

I have the option for a second cage in another room and would definitely take it slow with pre-bonding.  I will be a bit of a nervous wreck whenever I decide to add another rabbit into the mix. My main priority is Moxie’s happiness as I love her so much and she deserves the very best life. I have just read everyone’s stories about bonding struggles and I am worried. On the flip side, I know a lot of bonded rabbits who are very happy and I hate the idea of any animal to be alone if they don’t have to be.

Just looking for some advice on how to procede. I am in no hurry, but I am asking all of these questions as this little guy at my shelter caught my eye. Wondering if I should give him a chance.

I am so grateful for this community of rabbit lovers and very appreciative of any advice you have to give.

[Sirius&Luna]

It sounds like you’ve done lots of research!
Lots of people have big and small bunny pairs. I think member DanaNM is one. There’s no reason why size matters, other than being very careful while bonding so the little one doesn’t get hurt, but you need to be very careful with any bonding so I don’t really think it’s different.

It’s hard to know what a ‘very large x pen’ means, as everyone has different ideas of what very large for a bunny is. My two mini lops have a 2 meter by 1 meter pen, and time outside it daily. I still think it could be bigger but I’m in a small flat at the moment, and it’s big enough for them to run and binky in.

You don’t have to pre bond before speed dating, it’s basically a supervised visit to see if they’ll ever tolerate each other. Normally it takes about a month after a neuter for a male’s hormones to dissipate. I think trying a speed date with a non neutered male might end in aggression that wouldn’t be there if he was neutered, I would wait until after neuter personally.

Baby/adult doesn’t matter as long as they’re both neutered. Introducing a senior rabbit to a baby probably isn’t a good idea, but your existing bunny isn’t old.

My bunnies have two litter boxes and are pretty good with them. They often sit in the same one, but I think at least one litter box per bunny is essential.

If you did adopt him, then you should keep him in the separate room to settle in for a couple of weeks, before moving them near each other (but not so they can reach) and starting to prebond for at least a month.

Hope that helps!

[DanaNM]

Sirius and Luna pretty much covered it! Yep, my first pair, Bertha and Bunston (my avatar) were 9 lbs and about 3 lbs! Size of the two buns doesn’t matter at all.

But, any possible suitors do need to be neutered, and hormones settled for at least 6 weeks before dating them. The male’s behavior will be way different and he will smell different, so the date won’t be a good indication of how they will be together if he’s still hormonal.

For similar reasons, babies can’t bond properly, so you’ll need to get another adult. BunNoob had a sad experience with a baby… she adopted him before his neuter so wasn’t able to date them really, and then once he was neutered wasn’t able to bond him with her bun Ophelia, and then was heart broken having to re-home him.

I think it’s just much less risky (and easier on yourself) to aim for an adult that has long since been neutered. It’s best not to get too attached to any particular bun and let Moxi do the choosing when you date. Go to the rescue before hand and pick out 3 buns you are interested in (worth trying a female too if there is one you like). Same sex pairs can work if the personalities are compatible, Bertha has a DEFINITE preference for boys though.

Bonding is super stressful, but I think it’s worth it. All of my buns have been much happier bonded. Litter box habits will go out the window while you are bonding… but should return (mostly) once they are bonded. I do think the forum tends to have more stories of bonding hardships and fails, because people tend to come here looking for help. Fewer people go through the trouble to post when it all goes smoothly.

I think doing the homework first (so you don’t make mistakes that set you back early on), and going on speed dates really increases chances of success.

I think a large x-pen is perfectly fine while you are away, especially if they will get free run while you are home.

Bertha and Bunston shared one big litter box (a jumbo cat pan), but with Moose (her new man… Bunston passed away 2 yrs ago), they each have their own, side by side, plus I added another in the apartment. Moose had pretty bad box habits from the get go, that never got better after bonding, but I suspect he was never trained really, as he wasn’t neutered till he ended up at the shelter. He got much better with a bit of positive reinforcement and the extra box.

That’s sooooo cute that Moxi snuggles with your cat!

My Bertha sounds a lot like your Moxi: super cuddly and chill, BIG, so affectionate. As much as she loves me, I know I can’t be with her most of the day, and it warms my heart so much to see her getting grooms and snuggles from Moose while I’m in bed or getting home from work. I know she’s never alone that way. And, I’ll add, her affection towards me has not gone down in the slightest! Bunnies aren’t like parrots in that they only bond to one person, they will take all the love they can get. Now I just get two bunnies to pet at the same time! It’s great.

Do prepare to be eaten out of house and home though…

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Deleted User]

Since it’s your first time bonding, I agree with Dana that it’s probably best to look for a neutered adult. That way, you can start speed dates asap and don’t have to worry about waiting more than a month. The thing about speed dating is that you can get a sense of which rabbit your Moxi wants to be friends with, rather than picking the friend for her.

I made the mistake of picking the bun that I wanted, getting a little cute baby, and my bond didn’t work and I was absolutely heartbroken for weeks.

I got Ophelia from a breeder, which I honestly feel bad about in retrospect. I love her dearly though, so of course I don’t regret my decision! I kind of got her very impulsively, I was reminiscing about how I had rabbits as a child and thought…ohhh I should get one now! I had a female dutch as a child named Velvet. I saw the picture of Ophelia and she was the spitting image! So I had to have her. She was only 8 weeks at the time, so the breeder told me I had to wait to get her until she was 12 weeks, but I could pay her in advance and she would hold on to her for me. I spent that next month researching EVERYTHING about bunnies (and sadly realized how mistreated my childhood bunnies were because I was simply so uninformed.

A few months went by and I decided that I wanted to get Ophelia a friend, and I wanted another baby bunny. When I got Quincy, Ophelia was already spayed and recovered. He was only 12 weeks though, so I had to wait a bit to get him neutered. I set him up in my room and put up baby gate barriers and did prebonding for nearly 2 months. When I went to have dates, Ophelia seemed very loving and receptive of him, and he didn’t show any negative behaviors (but I could tell he was stressed because he would just sit in one corner and look wide eyed). Things went really well for about 2 weeks, but then Quincy started getting more comfortable and kept trying to pick fights with Ophelia and he refused to let her be dominant (in nearly a month of bonding dates, he only allowed her to mount him twice without freaking out). I think she started to get fed up of his bad attitude, too. So I gave up after several dates with increasing aggression.

Long story short, I advise you to go with an already neutered adult male. I made the mistake of falling in love with a little baby lop and I got him because I wanted him…but with bunnies there is no guarantee that two bunnies will get along, so it really is best to let them choose who they “mesh” with. It’s sort of like humans, you can’t pick a friend for someone and just expect them to get along, they might hate each other!

[Bladesmith]

Pictured, my mismatched buns.  American Chinchilla and Neatherland Dwarf. Clearly inseparable.   I’m lucky, it only took about 2 weeks to bond them, since Clover(the large one) gets along with everyone and is extremely easy going.

[DogRN]

Thank you all for your great advice. I am definitely glad to know that size won’t necessarily be a problem.

I am just feeling really torn at this point. I really want Moxie to have the best life possible, but I also want to have a connection with all of my own pets. We have other rabbits at my shelter right now, but none of them are “speaking to me”. Is that wrong? One of them is huge and grunts/stomps every time he sees another rabbit, 2 are terrified of everything, especially if they see a dog (won’t work in my home), a couple are females, and we have a cute bonded pair of girls (not going to go there).

Like I said, I am in no hurry, but I wonder if I am doing a disservice to Moxie by potentially being selfish. I definitely want what is best for all parties involved. But, because a bunny is a commitment for many many years, I have to include myself somewhere in the equation.

Just out of curiousisty, is there any way to get a rough idea of age in a rabbit? I think the guy I am interested in is a baby because of his size and just the way he acts I guess. But since most of our rabbits come in as strays, I am wondering if their is a good way to guesstimate and age.

At this point I don’t know what I will do. I want to adopt a rabbit from my shelter so I could foster him for a period of time through the bonding process to make sure I had a good match for Moxie. I think that would elimiate some guilt if for whatever reason it didn’t work out. I am a super committed pet parent, but I am nervous about this potential transition.

[DogRN]

That last post was me ^.

Idk why I was signed in under another account I have on a different forum (not rabbit related)!

Anyways, DogRN is Moxie BunBun

[Deleted User]

Rabbits will generally be happier in pairs, but that’s not to say that you can’t have a happy rabbit who lives as a single. If they get lots of attention and stimulation from you, then they can be perfectly happy still. of course, it would be grand to have a memeber of their species that they can communicate with.

I think that determining age in rabbits can be a bit tricky. Maybe judging by teeth? But I think you’ll get a ballpark figure that’s not all that accurate.

[Deleted User]

Agree with BN, especially if it’s a dwarf breed. They’re always so tiny that it’s impossible to tell what age they are, if you aren’t experienced at it.
A suggestion though, instead of bringing a random bun home, why don’t you take Moxie to your shelter to speed date? That way you won’t be taking in a bun for months that could possibly not work out. Also, if you do foster one, it’s so important to let them settle in for at least a month. Make sure in that month of settling in you do prebonding. It’ll get the new bun used to you and your routine and the environment, and it will allow the buns to become familiar with each other before any bonding sessions happen.

[Bladesmith]

Just to reassure you, My rabbits live here with my 2 cats, my rescue parrot, and a bearded dragon. Everyone gets along, although the rabbits are iffy around the Beardie, despite Beardies being the most mellow reptile on the planet. I think it’s an atavistic thing for the Buns, Reptiles=Predators.

Clover, my big bun, has bonded with everyone in the house. Our cat, Pyewacket, adores Clover. Pye loves to “boosh” Clover, and they’ll frequently cuddle up to each other and groom each other. The cats and Dawn, our little one, will often play “Chase me” games with each other. I used to think they were chasing and scaring the poor little thing until I noticed that Dawn would turn around and chase the cats. They were taking turns. Clover would sleep in the parrot cage if I let her.

Point being, while Buns would be best if they have another bun to bond with, they can and will bond with other household pets as well. But it takes time and due diligence to do so. For the first 2 weeks we had Dawn, I kept a spray bottle loaded with water and white vinegar to hand, and any time it looked like Pye was being predatory, I’d give her a squirt and loudly say, “NO! My Bunny!” She got the idea pretty quick.

So my suggestion/observation: Don’t look at Moxie as being bored in her Xpen, it’s her secure place for downtime after bonding with you. As long as she’s getting plenty of free roaming time and bonding time with you, she shouldn’t be bored (Although I’ve noticed a lot of buns resent having their free roaming reduced, sort of an “Aw Mom, do I HAVE to come inside? It’s not THAT dark out” thing.). I’d also recommend that you make sure Mox is fully bonded to you before adding another bun to the family. From what I’ve seen on here, bonding two strange bunnies to each other takes a LOT of time and effort and most of all, perseverance, and it doesn’t always work out.

Caveat: I have a lot less experience with bunnies than most of the folks on here, and I’m only putting forth what has worked for me. I’m well aware how lucky I am and how unusual Clover is when it comes to bonding. And how weird my furry family is. Your mileage may vary. Best wishes!

[DogRN]

So what I am reading is that I don’t think speed dating would be an option because all of the rabbits we get are not yet fixed. If I would have to wait 6 weeks following spay/neuter surgery to even speed date, I would never have any candidates to try because they all get adopted well before they are there for 6 weeks.

I guess I am feeling a little discouraged and wondering how anyone ever makes this work. I am learning all of the right things TO do, but it seems like none of that will be possible. I know Moxie could live a generally happy life without another rabbit, but I feel really bad not even giving her the chance. I can’t imagine not having a member of my own species to communicate with.

It seems like it is very complicated to do the exact right thing, and even then it is very iffy. How many people just go for it and try to bond in less than perfect situations?

The only issue is the amount of time that would need to pass after neutering and before speed dating. It is just not realistic in sheltering to hold a rabbit for 6 weeks for a potential bond mate that very well may not work out.

Feeling discouraged.

[Bladesmith]

Don’t be discouraged. Far too many people do, not realizing that rabbits work differently than cats and dogs do. It just takes time. And a lot of patience.

As humans, we’re an instant gratification species. We want what we want and we want it now. Rabbits are not like that. If your Moxie is playing, eating well, binkying, and enjoying your attention and company, then she’s having a good life.

It’ll work out. And it’s worth the wait.

[DogRN]

I don’t mind anything taking time and I definitely think that Moxie is living a pretty good life. She seems happy and there is no rush. I don’t want any type of instant gratification, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to be able to adopt a bunny that I could speed date before bringing home for a period of settling in and pre bonding. The 6 week time window would limit that always.

It just doesn’t seem like meeting all of the parameters for getting a bondmate will be possible. Due to the amount of time post neutering that needs to pass before you could even speed date two bunnies. Without adopting a rabbit, keeping them separate, and taking the chance once 6 weeks has passed. With a decent chance it wouldn’t work out.

I’m just confused how anyone could follow all of these parameters. Unless everyone has been able to adopt rabbits that have already been altered (spayed or neutered) for a long time?

[DogRN]

I don’t mind anything taking time and I definitely think that Moxie is living a pretty good life. She seems happy and there is no rush. I don’t want any type of instant gratification, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to be able to adopt a bunny that I could speed date before bringing home for a period of settling in and pre bonding. The 6 week time window would limit that always.

It just doesn’t seem like meeting all of the parameters for getting a bondmate will be possible. Due to the amount of time post neutering that needs to pass before you could even speed date two bunnies. Without adopting a rabbit, keeping them separate, and taking the chance once 6 weeks has passed. With a decent chance it wouldn’t work out.

I’m just confused how anyone could follow all of these parameters. Unless everyone has been able to adopt rabbits that have already been altered (spayed or neutered) for a long time?

[Bladesmith]

Posted By Moxie BunBun on 12/16/2017 9:18 PM

I don’t mind anything taking time and I definitely think that Moxie is living a pretty good life. She seems happy and there is no rush. I don’t want any type of instant gratification, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to be able to adopt a bunny that I could speed date before bringing home for a period of settling in and pre bonding. The 6 week time window would limit that always.

It just doesn’t seem like meeting all of the parameters for getting a bondmate will be possible. Due to the amount of time post neutering that needs to pass before you could even speed date two bunnies. Without adopting a rabbit, keeping them separate, and taking the chance once 6 weeks has passed. With a decent chance it wouldn’t work out.

I’m just confused how anyone could follow all of these parameters. Unless everyone has been able to adopt rabbits that have already been altered (spayed or neutered) for a long time?

If you’re happy and Moxie is happy, I really don’t see the need for you or her to put yourselves through unnecessary stress.  I had to adopt Dawn, our dwarf bun, because my Ex wife basically said, “She either has to stay with you or she has to be re-homed” (Sounds worse than it was.  Dawn is my daughters rabbit, and since my daughter now lives with me all week and goes to her mother’s on the weekends, Dawn wasn’t getting the care and attention she needed).   And I got VERY lucky in that Clover is so laid back she accepts everyone (Well, everyone who admits she’s Queen and worships her appropriately.  Blueberries as offerings are encouraged.  Human sacrifices may be required at a future date.)  I’m also lucky (First time I’ve said that about my condition) that I’m disabled and can spend the time required to monitor these maniacs.  Bonding, even easy ones like mine, seem to be labor and attention intensive.  Side note: Neither of my girls are fixed, but it’s in the plans to do so.  I’m not encountering any issues with them being unfixed either.  Just depends on the bunnies I guess.

Pretty sure my buns think I’m just a big rabbit who sucks at being a rabbit.  I don’t hop, but I am good for laying on the floor, rubbing heads and sharing treats, so they tolerate me.

If I was in your position I wouldn’t worry about having another rabbit until you feel you’re up for it, if ever.

[Sirius&Luna]

Most rescues in the UK immediately neuter/spay bunnies, and they’re then available for dates, but perhaps it’s different in the UK.

That said, I have bought babies, kept them separate, then neutered, prebonded and bonded successfully. But that is a riskier method.

Would you be able to adopt from the rescue on the basis that you could return the bunny if they didn’t bond?

[DanaNM]

With my first pair, Bunston and Bertha, we didn’t do speed dating. I currently had Bunston, Bertha belonged to a friend who was looking to re-home her due to a dramatic change in her living situation (terrible break up from an abusive partner…. so just unstable in general). She knew I was thinking of bonding Bunston, so we decided to see if things would work out with them.

In that case, we did do one speed introduction with them in my bathtub to make sure they didn’t hate each other outright. Things went well on that (Bertha flopped and Bunston mounted her head, hahah), but then we made the mistake of allowing them to interact in my apartment (I had no idea what I was doing at the time). Bunston attacked Bertha (understandable), but we were right there so we stopped it immediately and all that was lost was a clump of fur, and some hurt feelings.

So, we decided to go for it. Their bond was really tough (about 3 months), but I attribute this in large part due to our mistake that first day.

With Bertha and Moose, we speed dated (and dated like 7 bunnies!), things with Moose went well, but their bond still took about 6 weeks start to finish!

So this was a long roundabout way of saying that you don’t always have to speed date, and it’s no guarantee of ” love at first site”. I think it’s helpful if possible, but even if you can’t, I think that most pairs will follow a bell curve. A few will be super easy, some will be very hard or impossible, and most will fall somewhere in the middle. And once they are bonded, the bond is the same, whether it took 2 weeks or 3 months.

I think if I were in your shoes, I would just wait until a promising male is available at the shelter, and take a chance on him. If it doesn’t work out, you can treat it as though he was in foster care with you for a few weeks…. Lots of folks aren’t able to speed date, and many are still successful. Not sure of your location… but you might also look for other rabbit rescues in your region, or craigslist. Private owners looking to re-home might be willing to let you bring Moxie over for a date at their place.

But I do agree with everyone that there is no need to stress out about it! You can just be open to the possibility of bonding her, and then see what happens over time…

Oh, and about rabbit age…. Someone at our rescue said that she’s noticed bunnies back feet get farther apart as they age. So in a young rabbit, the heels are closer together, and the back feet are almost parallel. As they get older, the feet shift farther out, and at an angle. I can’t remember if they had noticed this only for females, or males too.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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