Newbie to bonding help pls

[pete]

Hello everyone I have just joined this site and would really appreciate some advice.

I have two male mini lops (siblings, Bonnie & Clyde), I got them both from a breeder at 8 weeks, they got along fine together until the hormones kicked in and a few fights broke out, they were separated alongside each other (x-pens) and I would let them out on their own to run around (bedroom), every other day I would put them in each other’s pen to get use to the smells etc. They have both been neutered.  

I started bonding them in the bath which went well apart from a small scuffle, and then I tried the semi neutral approach in the living room area, I had Bonnie in the pen and was trying to put Clyde in when bonnie escaped, I waited for a few moments and everything seemed fine, they shared the living room area together for 3 days and nights, grooming each other and sleeping alongside each other. They followed me into the hallway and ended up in the bedroom, I had stupidly and hastily removed the bedroom x-pens and washed and cleaned everything hoping that they were bonded after spending 3 nights together with no problems, this morning they had breakfast together and again followed me into the bedroom and a real bad fight broke out.

I was in a panic and getting late for work I left Clyde in the bedroom and Bonnie in the hall; tonight I arrive home and tried them together in the living room area since they had got along fine for 3 days, another really bad fight  took place and they are now back separated in the bedroom, I feel I have now ran out of neutral places and am so disheartened.

Sorry for the long post but would welcome any advice and let me know the mistakes I have made.

BTW i was told by the breeder and 2 vets that Bonnie was female, hence the name

Thank You  

[Sirius&Luna]

Since they’ve had two bad fights, you need to reset. It sounds like you rushed everything a bit, which is probably why they ended up fighting. Did either end up with wounds after the fight?

Separate them for at least a month, or up to three (depending how bad the fight was. If skin was broken, it was a bad fight).

After the total separation, so at least 1 month later, you can start prebonding them. Swap their litter trays and food bowls,or put the bunnies in each others area on alternate days. Do this for another month.

After you’ve been prebonding for a month, hopefully they will have stopped reacting when the swaps happen. If they’re still reacting, carry on with pre-bonding until they’re not.

Once they’ve stopped reacting to pre-bonding, (so at least 2 months from now) you can go back to introducing them in neutral space. You can create new neutral space either with thorough cleaning, or by buying a little pop-up pen for example. You should only introduce them for short amounts of time at first, and you must intervene before fighting happens. Once they’re happily spending 10 minutes together, increase it to 20, etc. They must never ever be left unsupervised during the bonding process. Once this has been going well for a while, you can introduce things like litter trays, and see how they react. If they manage to spend at least 5 hours together happily you can move on.

Once they are happy in the neutral space, (There must be no negative behaviours – fighting, chasing, humping, biting, and there must be positive behavious – mutual grooming, snuggling, flopping, sharing food and litter trays), you can move them into a semi-neutral space, and start the process again.

After that, you repeat the steps in their permanent home.

Before you can declare them bonded, they must have spent at least 48 hours in their permanent home together (fully supervised), with no negative behaviour at all.

I understand that this sounds, and is, very time consuming. However, there’s really not any way of rushing a rabbit bond, especially since yours have already fought.

P.S. How long have they been neutered for? They might need a bit more time to drain hormones after the neuter too.

[pete]

Hello and thank you for your reply.

Yes i think i did rather rush it, Bonnie ended up with a slight mark on his ear, i actually came off worse trying to separate them (nasty gash on hand).
I have them separated again now, they have both been neutered for 8 & 6 weeks.

Today when i came home from work Bonnie god knows how managed to separate and sneak through into Clyde’s half of the x-pen, i do not think any fighting had occurred (no fur etc) and they seemed fine again together, really confusing how they get along one minute and so aggressive another.

When you mention swapping cages for about a month on alternate days, what do you mean when you say they stop reacting?

What do i do regarding daily exercise, at the moment i have been letting them out separately in the bedroom were their home is.

Thanks for your time.

[Sirius&Luna]

No problem

You really need to make sure they can’t get to each other when you’re not there, it could turn really nasty. I know they’re sneaky, but keep them in separate rooms if you have to. As you know, they can bite hard!

When you swap litter trays you might find they’re very angry at first, stomping, digging in the litter, chewing the box etc. Once they’re used to each other’s smells, they won’t react to the other bunny’s smell anymore.

Since there wasn’t any serious injury I think you’re probably ok to let them exercise in the same room at different times. Make sure they can’t reach each other through the bars. The fact that you got a nasty gash means that one was really trying to hurt the other, so it’s important to do the prebonding for at least a month while they get used to the idea of each other.

[pete]

Thank You, i will keep you updated on their progress.

Is it not good if they see each other exercise? 

[Sirius&Luna]

It’s fine for them to see each other, but they mustn’t be allowed to touch. So if you can set up a double bar set-up, with at least 6 inches between the two sets of bars, that’s fine. But if you can’t, blankets will ensure that they can’t bite each other through the pens.

[pete]

Thank You, will be back in a month or two with my progress.

Your bunnies are so cute btw

[Sirius&Luna]

Great, good luck!

Thank you!

[pete]

Hello

This is the beginning of my 4th week with Bonnie & Clyde completely separated, exercising alone every day with no contact through the x-pen, i have blankets and plywood so they cannot touch each other.

Everything was going great until this morning i was in the bathroom and heard noises, Bonnie had jumped the middle partition of the x-pen and was fighting with Clyde, luckily i was near by and managed to get Bonnie back in his half of the x-pen, it was only about 30 seconds, plenty of fur but no serious injuries, i had made a mistake of putting his litter tray too near the partition and i can only guess he used the extra inches to jump over.

I am so annoyed and upset after 3 weeks of things running smoothly this happened, have i wasted 3 weeks and have to start over from scratch again? 

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi Pete,

If there were no serious injuries, (eg. no blood drawn) I think you’re ok to carry on as you were. Have you started pre-bonding yet? That would be the next step anyway. Clearly they are still feeling antagonistic towards each other, although that may be because they were in ones territory.

Start swapping them between pens next week, they’ll probably be very angry at first, but hopefully it will get them used to the smell of each other.

[pete]

Hi and thank you for replying.

I was going to start swapping the cages after 4 weeks but was worried this had set me back, Bonnie is so playful when he comes out, jumping on the bed and trying to get into every nook and cranny, Clyde is much more placid, but the aggression Bonnie shows towards Clyde when he sees him playing isn’t so great.

I am not sure if i have done the right thing by letting them see each other during play times,(the bedroom hopefully will be their home) although they cant touch each other they seem to get very jealous seeing each other play especially Bonnie, i could try using blankets on the outside of the x-pen but Bonnie will climb anything he can and i am worried he will scamper up into Clydes half.

I never thought bunnies could be so stressful 

Thank You

[Sirius&Luna]

I had the jealousy with my two too, and they got over it! I remember how stressful it was though.

Hopefully you’ll be able to bond them and all the stress will be worth it!

[pete]

Hello, hope your fine.

I started swapping litter trays for a few days with no aggressive behaviour, and have now just swapped cages, Clyde is just his usual placid self, Bonnie is exploring everything, jumping in and out of the litter tray and rolling around on the floor, is this angry or happy behaviour?

Shall i swap cages everyday for at least a month?

Thank You 

[Sirius&Luna]

Great that it’s going well! It’s hard to know without saying it, but I would assume it was an attempt to claim it as his territory. Rabbits also sometimes do happy behaviours, like binkys or flopping, aggressively in front of another rabbit, to show them how not fussed they are by the others presence, so you might be seeing that even thought its only a cage swap!

I would swap every other day for a month, so there’s time for them to get their scents over things between the swaps. It also means you can try and time litter tray cleans so that it will still smell of the other bunny

[pete]

All sorts of behaviour last night and this morning, constant running around cages, stamping feet, trying to jump out the cages (when one has his exercise time), when out a mad 5 minute flit and then a few hours relaxing on the bed.

Will carry on as you said.

Thank You

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha, stomping is to be expected. Hopefully over the month you will see this behaviour decrease

[pete]

Hello, Happy New Year and hope all is well.

I am coming up to nearly 2 months now of swapping Bonnie & Clyde’s cages every other day, sometimes no reaction has occurred but  recently (past week ) especially Bonnie has been very hyper on the cage swap, running and jumping around like crazy, sniffing everything, rolling around ( this after nearly 2 months), its like its the first week and not 8 weeks.

I still see signs of aggression (mainly Bonnie), when i stroke Clyde, feet stomping etc, trying to get nose and paws through the bars at Clyde, i am not looking forward to the next stage at all, should i begin with the Bonding or wait longer?

Also how do i get hold of them, they absolutely hate being picked up, last time was a nightmare trying to grab them, i have gained the trust  by stroking them and don’t wont to ruin  that trust by having to pick  them up and scare them.

Thanks

[Deleted User]

Do you have a pet carrier? I would have been trying to train them to get in it so you can easily transport them to the bonding area (one at a time of course).

I have tried to catch up on this thread the best that I can, but I’m still a bit confused.

They have had some fights before it seems, but I thought that I read one response that said they had been living in separate rooms? Then It seems that they weren’t as one got into the others enclosure? If they have had fights and not had the opportunity to forget about it (because they live next to each other) then that may be why they are still so aggressive. Or it could be that they are holding a grudge since they’ve had several fights already. If there is still aggression then I don’t think that I would advise proceeding until you’ve sorted out why they are acting this way after two months of bonding.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may just have a really difficult pair to bond given that they have had several fights already.

[Sirius&Luna]

If there’s still signs of aggression I also wouldn’t proceed yet sorry! You really don’t want another fight on your hands.

It’s good that you are getting some reaction from Bonnie because hopefully it will make it easier to see when she stops reacting.

Seconding pet carrier if they’re not good at being picked up.

[pete]

Hi, they have never been in separate rooms (not really possible tbh),the x-pen is split for them, aggression seems to come with playtime and when Clyde gets attention from me, I do have a pet carrier btw.

Thanks

[pete]

How long do you think I need to carry on? I’m thinking this is going to be a long process

[Sirius&Luna]

Until you stop seeing reactions from the pen swapping basically

Can they see each other from the pens? Do they ever flop near each other or mirror each others movements?

[pete]

They can see each other and do sometimes sit next to each other alongside the bars (can’t touch though), I actually have one of those baby cams so I am always checking on them while at work lol, never seems any aggression. Should they not be seeing each other do you think?

[Sirius&Luna]

No seeing each other is fine – i just meant its a good sign if they start mirroring each others behaviour through the pens (which obviously they can’t do if they can’t see each other) so that’s another sign to watch out for which might mean they’re ready to progress to the next step of bonding

[pete]

Hi, so i have gone 3 more weeks now swapping cages and have not noticed any aggressive reactions, do you think i am ready for the next step? As i mentioned before   they do not  like being picked up at all and the use of maybe a carrier, this would be fine just the once, but using it all the time to transport them to the bonding place i feel will be impossible, i just cant see them being enticed into the carrier for every bonding session ( they are not stupid and know the reason why).

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

Sounds like you’re ready!

You can use the carrier to transport them, but make sure you remove it once they’re in the area, as you don’t want them getting trapped in it and fighting.

If you don’t think that will work, what about picking them up in the litter tray, and carrying them in that? Again, make sure you don’t leave it in the neutral area.

Start off short, and in a small space. If they’ve already had bad experiences in the bath, perhaps you could try blocking off a small area of the bathroom floor and try that instead?

First session should literally be under 5 minutes, and if it goes well, try another 5 minutes a couple of hours later

[pete]

Hi, so I managed to do 3 sessions of 5 minutes, I did as you suggested and used their litter tray to transport them to bathroom.

First session they just sat next to each other with little interaction, the next two sessions an hour or so part and again 5 minutes bonnie most of the time had his head under Clydes tummy and cheeks, near the end of the session Clyde would stomp.

Are the signs encouraging? , and should I carry on with 5 minutes or increase maybe.

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

That sounds like a very positive start! great job

Bonnie has his head under Clyde because he’s asking for grooms. Clyde is refusing, which is totally normal at this stage.

Definitely start increasing the time I would go up to 10, then 15 the next day, hopefully by the end of the week you can be on half hour to hour sessions. You can start jumping up in bigger leaps after the first couple of days

You might also want to pet them while they’re in there. That will get each others scents over them, and will also make them feel more positive. If they sit head to head in a grooming ‘stand-off’, don’t be scared to intervene and pet them both.

Just as a reminder:

Positive signs: flopping, relaxing, grooming themselves, grooming each other, mirroring each others actions

Neutral signs: nipping, regular humping for less than 10 seconds, ignoring, sitting head to head.

Negative signs that must be stopped: fur pulling, chasing, biting, boxing, face humping, excessive humping.

[Manda]

Try car rides or if you can- take them somewhere where you can plop them in a shopping cart in a carrier like petsmart. The car rides have always worked for me and I swear my Cinni was the toughest nut to crack when it came to bonding. She put a really good fight with each friend (over her 13 year lifespan she outlived 3 and just recently left the 4th behind ) however- do not give up hope my friend it CAN BE DONE!! It always took about a month of consistent and insistent bathtub dates, stress bonding and slowly but surely increasing time together. Key is to also never let bad fights break out- it can be hard but with each supervised playtime I was always on guard ready to pounce with an oven mit and brooM pan. Reading their body language is going to help you too- if you see one of them tense, ears back, tail up a fight is brewing. I always took the reins and would say Cinnamin you WILL be friends with this bunny so give up and surrender and just be friends already because THIS IS HAPPENING! and sure enough- every time when I had just about had enough, there would be less and less tense moments, and more harmony. Good luck and keep at it- you got this!

[pete]

Sorry for your recent loss, thanks for input much appreciated.

I had two 10 minutes sessions last night, first session was sitting mostly face to face, second session they sat alongside each other cheek to cheek, pretty stressed out I thought, but as soon as they come out they are within seconds back to their happy selves.

Thanks

[pete]

I only had chance for one session last night, I managed about 15 minutes with Clyde spending most of the time licking Bonnies head, hopefully that was very positive.

Should I have kept the session longer because it was going well or still remove them?

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

That is really positive! well done!

It’s hard to know – you don’t want to leave them so long that they end up ending on a negative note, so it is good to end while things are going well, as that creates a positive association for them, but sometimes it does feel counterproductive to us to stop it when its going so well.

I think you can definitely try and lengthen the sessions now, but be ready to intervene and pet them if it looks like they’re getting antsy. Perhaps at the weekend you can try a longer 1 hour plus session (assuming you have weekends free).

[pete]

Hi, another good session last night for 20 minutes this time, bonnie was cleaning himself in front of Clyde and then licking his head for most of the session, Clyde did look funny with his head so wet with the licking.

Bonnie is already getting wise to being carried in his litter tray, jumps out every time I try and pick it up.

Clyde during the sessions is the only one who has stomped, is this because of the stressful situation ?

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

It sounds like it’s going really well, so don’t worry about a bit of stomping. It might be due to mild stress, or trying to warn the other rabbit away. Since Clyde is the one being groomed the most, it sounds like he’ll be the dominant one. Has Clyde groomed Bonnie at all?

Keep extending the sessions, it sounds like it’s going great

[pete]

Yesterday it was bonnie doing the grooming, the night before the other way round, will do another session tonight, is longer better or more short sessions? I don’t always have the time until the weekend for more sessions

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

I think now you’re at the stage where they are both grooming each other, longer sessions would be better you need to see how it progresses when they spend more time together.

If you can’t manage long sessions on week days, then do try to at least put them together for a bit, just to keep up positive progress. Since it’s going so well, it might be worth trying a very supervised session of a few hours at the weekend, if you have time.

[pete]

Another great session last night, 30 minutes this time

First 20 minutes bonnie was grooming Clyde as well as cleaning himself, the last 10 minutes he put his head under clydes tummy and got groomed himself.

I did notice the time bonnie separated he started licking a bit more aggressively around clydes bum area, stomps again from Clyde again, but hopefully a good session

[pete]

Not so great today, they were bit more hyper than the previous sessions, Bonnie suddenly just flopped in front of Clyde which Clyde did not seem to like and a small scuff took place, i separated before any harm or real contact took place, they then just sat face to face so i ended the session.

Was i right in ending the session because i keep hearing try to end on a positive note, i did not feel comfortable the way things were going, the only thing i did different was to give them some food from my hand between them when i stared the session and again clyde was stomping.

[Harley&Thumper]

The face to face meant they both wanted to be groomed. Next time, pet both of them at the same time. I would not have ended the session the way you did but I don’t think you did anything wrong. If you become uncomfortable then the rabbits will notice and become more uncomfortable as well.

[Sirius&Luna]

Small scuffles happen when bonding, don’t be discouraged! Ending on a good note isn’t always possible, and you didn’t end on a bad note, so that’s good!

I agree, stroke them when they sit face to face to get rid of some of the tension.

Flopping is good though – a sign of being relaxed! ( or sometimes they dramatically flop to show how relaxed they are to the other bunny) ?Perhaps you could try increasing the space a bit, so they can flop further away if they want to.

[Harley&Thumper]

In this case I think the flopping was actually a bad thing. One of the rabbits was mocking the other by showing off that he was happy and the other one wasn’t.

[Sirius&Luna]

Well I did also say that was an option, but since all their interactions have been largely positive up to this point, it’s also possible that Bonnie was relaxed and Clyde just took it the wrong way.

[pete]

Hopefully a good 40 minutes today, lots of grooming from Clyde with Bonnie not doing much at all really just enjoying the attention so it seems.

Clyde did on a few occasions try humping which only lasted a few seconds, he did attempt to hump bonnies face which i stopped immediately, should i always intervene with humping?

Towards the end of the session this time Clyde flopped next to Bonnie and started grooming him from that position (no reaction at all this time), hope this was a positive Date   

[pete]

Good 45 mins today, mutual grooming for the whole session and 3 flops from Bonnie.

[Sirius&Luna]

So, always intervene with face humping, cos it could end up with genital bites.

With normal humping, it’s used to establish dominance, so generally we say let it go on for 5-10 seconds, as long as the bunny being humped isn’t overly distressed by it. If they are distressed, then intervene earlier.

Great that they’re both grooming and flopping, sounds like you’re making great progress. Now you just need to keep extending dates – you could also try doing things like bringing in a pile of hay for them to share and see how they deal with that.

[pete]

Great thanks, would I be able to use another bonding area such as my living room if I make a small enclosure, I could concentrate more hours with them, I find sitting in the bathroom for nearly an hour is hard work

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha yeah, sitting in the bathroom is the worst – I spent so many hours in my windowless bathroom with my two, and I’m about to start it again for the trio. Once you’re confident that they’re not going to fight (and it seems yours won’t), it’s totally fine to take a book or laptop with you, as you don’t need to monitor so closely, but do need to be in the room.

So – to answer your question – you can use another bonding area if it’s neutral, or if you neutralise it – so if they spend a lot of time in the living room, then it’s probably not a good idea, but if they’ve only been in a few times, or never, then it’s fine. If occassionally they’ve been in before just make sure to wash the floors if they’re wooden, or put down a sheet or blanket if it’s carpet, and cover the sides of the pen so they can’t see out if it’s a room they’re familiar with.

[pete]

I made a small enclosure as mentioned in my living room (probably the length of my bath), i was slightly worried because it was the area they had that bad fight last year, but i blocked off the sides as you said and neutralized it as best as i could.

 They had a really good 2 hours together, i gave them some hay which they both shared, put in a bowl of water and also gave them some veg which they shared and didn’t even fight over.They did plenty of mutual grooming and flopping and even had a little sleep together, no humping in the whole session.

Do i keep increasing the time each day? also when they have their playtime in the bedroom i have always blocked off the other ones side of the x-pen so that their is no interaction and touching through the bars when one is having his time out, do i remove the covers or still keep covering the pen, the same for the middle partition of the x-pen which has plywood dividing each half so they can not touch.

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

That’s great! I’m glad you’ve found somewhere other than the bathroom that works.

Once you’ve got to a succesful hour or two, you don’t have to gradually increase time so much. You could go straight into a 6 hour session if you had time, but you can also stick to the two hours if you don’t, just to keep progress steady.

The next big step for you I would say is doing a long session, so 6-8 hours (bye bye weekend!), and if that goes well, an overnight. If the 6 hours is going well, you can turn it into a marathon, and go straight for the 24 hours if you have time and can face it. When I was bonding my two I did the same as you – lots of 2 hour sessions, then one weekend I put them together on Friday evening, and left them together (monitored) until Saturday evening, then moved them into their permanent space and watched until Monday evening, at which point I called them bonded.

You’ve definitely got the basis for a positive relationship, so at this point you just need to ensure they can spend extended periods of time together.

With playtime in the bedroom, I would keep the other blocked off – they might still be possessive over their own space, and you don’t want undo all the great progress you’ve made by them having a fight over their space. Its unlikely I would say, but there’s not really any benefit, and a potential big negative.

[Manda]

Sounds like you are slowly getting there- they are going to have disagreements- you can also put some banana on their noses so the bunny licks the other one and it strengthens the bond. Just keep in mind- they are getting to know each other and like us- it takes a bit of time for relationships to grow- especially when your natural instinct is to be protective of your territory. I think you are doing a great job. Have you tried doing “dinner and a movie” with the buns? If you can take them somewhere in your living room or what not and put down some tasty veggies and treats with a litterbox and plop on a movie and just wait it out. Just be ready to breakup any scuffs. Since they are asking to groom one another it is a really good sign- relationships are growing! if the dates are going good keep lengthening them. Below is some really helpful material from House Rabbit Society.

https://rabbit.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Bonding-Bunnies-PPforrabbit.org_.pdf

[pete]

I started last nights date at 5pm when i arrived home, everything went great again, mutual grooming, plenty of flops, sharing food and relaxing side by side.

I had forgotten to ask you regarding using a litter tray, wasn’t sure to use a new one or one of their own, so i just put in one of their own (it had been cleaned as i did both the cages as soon as i came home), it didn’t cause any problems, they both ate from it and used it without any aggression.

It was now 10pm and they had got along fine so i decided to try overnight, i slept on the sofa (well i tried to sleep i woke up every hour), when i eventually woke up at 4 they were both sitting side by side just watching me through the bars, i hope nothing happened during the times i was sleeping (pretty sure it didn’t),

I worry about exercise during these dates, i could only give them an hour each this morning before going to work.

So they had a good 11hrs or so together, hope that was fine and i didn’t get a bit carried away.

[pete]

“Dinner and a movie”, i like that, but in my case “Dinner and Football”

Thanks for the link very interesting, but i also found it very confusing……..using a bath for bonding is pretty much a no go, and the neutral bonding area is as large as possible, unless i read it wrong i don’t  quite understand. 

[Sirius&Luna]

A new litter tray is best, but I’ve always been fine with a cleaned old one too I’m so glad overnight went well. I imagine you would have woken up if there was any scuffling, and you would have seen tufts of fur, so I would’t worry about that.

Manda’s link is interesting – there’s lots of different theories about the ‘best’ way to bond bunnies, and there’s no one way that works for every bun. I don’t agree that bath tub is meant to be stressful though – I thought it was recommended as it was a definitely neutral place that everyone had, and small enough to manage. That said, my Luna HATES the bathtub, so I’ve never had a successful session in there – like I said, it’s all about doing what works for your bunnies.

Dana has found that a large bonding area really works well for her difficult bunnies, but other people find that a large area results in chasing – again, find what works for your bunnies and keep going with it.

It seems like what you’ve been doing has been going really well so far, (I’ve been talking you through the BB recommended method which you can read here: https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/tabid/53/CategoryID/9/PID/940/Default.aspx ). So your next step is probably moving to semi-neutral space (space they’ve both been in before, but isn’t where they live) and see how they do there. Often they take a small step back when you move to semi-neutral, but hopefully with some more sessions they’ll be back to where you are now! After that, it’s the same again in a thoroughly cleaned and neutralised permanent home

[pete]

As they both live in the bedroom with the x-pens and use the room for the playtime and exercise, could I maybe use the landing as semi-neutral?, I always leave the bedroom door open during exercise time, so they do run into it every day.

Do I have another overnight in neutral or go straight to semi-neutral?

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

Yepp, landing sounds like a good semi-neutral It’s really up to you – it wouldn’t hurt to do another overnight in neutral, but they’re probably also okay to move on now, it depends how confident you feel.

By the way, I would probably start in neutral for a couple of hours, then move them together for semi-neutral, rather than plonking them straight into semi, whenever you decide to do it.

[pete]

I decided on another overnight and will wait for weekend for semi-neutral so i can watch closely on them.

Another really great evening and night together, so cute when they sleep next to one another, makes you wonder how they could ever fight from now on (but i am not getting carried away).

When i start on my landing for semi-neutral do i give it a good clean? and shall i let them have all the landing or use the enclosure i have  been using for the past few nights in my living room? sorry for all the questions

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

It’s great, I think you can be pretty certain that they’ll bond at this point!

No don’t clean it, the point is that is still smells of both of them I would start with the enclosure, but you could always try starting off in it, then letting them have the whole landing after a successful overnight. You’re basically testing how long and how far they’ll be good for – so if they continue to behave the same in semi neutral in the pen, see how they’ll do with more space in semi neutral

[pete]

Last night was a bit more active, bit of humping woke me up, with just a little scuffle and then back to mutual grooming, this early morning was the same, they both like to be stroked together which today seemed to make bonnie want to hump more, again after that they groomed again and settled down, the humping only lasted seconds so I didn’t need to intervene.

Will maybe do a few hours in semi tonight and then the whole landing at the weekend

[Sirius&Luna]

Its good that they managed to sort out the humping without you intervening. It would be good to identify what starts the humping.

[pete]

Not a good weekend for me at the moment, Friday was another overnight in their  enclosure in the living room which again went really well.

Yesterday morning i put the enclosure on the landing, i decided to keep them in it for most of the day instead of a few hours and then  letting them roam free on it, i could not possibly sit on the landing for hours on end (i would have froze to death), so i had a huge mirror directed at them from my living room door, 9 hours of total bliss, grooming, relaxing, digging, then a fight breaks out which i separated immediately, i managed to stroke them both and settle them down while giving them some pellets.

Bonnie seems to be the aggressor, i never felt comfortable leaving them so put them back in their cages overnight, at the moment they are having their separate exercise time.

I am in limbo now, shall i put them back in the living room for a couple more nights or try again on the  landing?, i have no idea what started the fight( no injuries btw, just plenty fur), so disheartened that after nearly a week of great progress i feel back at stage one. 

[Sirius&Luna]

It is normal to take a step back when you move to the semi-neutral territory, so don’t be too disheartened. You might have just pushed it too long there.
Perhaps go back to your neutral space and do a short session there, then move them to semi neutral for a short session. Don’t leave them too long, maybe just do a few shorter sessions again.

[pete]

Yes maybe I got carried away!

I went back to neutral for a 3 hour session, very tense at first, Clyde flopped in front of bonnie which he took exception to and lashed out, I stroked them and tried to relieve the tension, the rest of the session was very standoffish, the odd bit of grooming and resting apart from each other.

Will switch back to semi tonight for a few hours

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

How did they do in semi again?

[pete]

Hi, Monday i gave them just an hour in the enclosure in semi, it went well with no aggression and just a little grooming, plenty of stomping though

Last night i did the same kept them for an hour then let them have free roam of the landing for about 20 minutes, plenty of exploring and sniffing, at one stage Bonnie took a lunge at Clyde so i calmed them both down and a little bit of grooming took place, Bonnie was really hyper the little bugger even bit me which he has never done before. I sat between them most of the time so i could try and stop any aggression, not sure if i should sit away from them or do as i did, what do you think?

When they had their separate exercise time they both went straight to the landing area and ran around and were very reluctant to move, both really hyper running  and jumping like crazy.

[Sirius&Luna]

Oh good sitting between them is fine I think, while they re-establish themselves in the new space. You wouldn’t want them to get into a fight, so I think that’s fine

[pete]

Not a great session again:, just about managed 40 minutes, first 20 was not much contact with just a few seconds of grooming, then the next 20 minutes was constant lunging at each other, pretty sure it didn’t escalate because I intervened at every opportunity.

Not sure whether to persist or go back to neutral for a few days, why don’t folk just use neutral as the home if this is the place they seem to bond together

[Sirius&Luna]

Honestly, if you have space for them to live permanently in the neutral space, then by all means do it! Most people don’t have space, and their neutral is the bathroom, which isn’t a practical place for the bunnies to live permanently.

I would go back to short sessions (an hour ish) sessions in neutral, since semi-neutral doesn’t seem to be working for them yet.

If you have space for them to live in permanently in the neutral space, then you could just work back up to a 48 hour monitor there, then leave them there, but then you would need to be careful about them getting into the hallway etc, although, over time, it would probably become less of an issue.

Hoping someone else can chime in at this point, just to make sure my advice is correct!

[pete]

Yes I was thinking out loud really! It wouldn’t be impossible for them to live in living room area, but ideally I prefer bedroom area.

I will switch back to neutral for a few days then give semi a go at the weekend, do I ever give them free roam in neutral or stick with the small enclosure I have?

[pete]

Well i gave them a good 2 hours in enclosure in living room again, you would think they were 2 different bunnies, mutual grooming again with no aggression at all.

[pete]

Never got chance to try semi, but they had fri,sat,sun in neutral for a few hours and all went great again, will start off this week in semi and see how it goes.

[Sirius&Luna]

Good that they’re doing well in neutral again. I would start them in neutral, then move them across to semi neutral, and keep it short. So maybe an hour in neutral, then half an hour in semi and see how that goes.

[pete]

So I gave them another hour in neutral which again went great, I cheated a little bit and moved the enclosure to the landing doorway so that it stayed in the living room but the opening led to the landing (semi) which I split in half for them instead of giving them the whole of the landing like last time.

It went well, no aggression just exploring really, Bonnie was wanting to be groomed but Clyde seemed too busy eating, although this was more in the enclosure area more than the landing.

They also know what to expect about getting them into the carrier to transport them, much less fuss now which makes things so much easier.

What should I try tonight do you think.

[pete]

Good session tonight, 1 hour in neutral then i gave them 30 minutes in semi, this time i allowed them just the landing with no access to neutral. They were sat together for some stage so i stroked them both for around 5 minutes and then mutual grooming took place.

I did half the landing area for them just to reduce the space slightly, the other half is the bedroom door area (where they live) so i thought i would let them get use to one half first.

[Sirius&Luna]

Sounds good – just keep slowly increasing the time again It’s good that they’ve got out of the habit of fighting on the landing though. Perhaps you gave them too much space too quickly.

[pete]

A good hour last night in semi, increased the size of the landing area to about 3/4, first 15 minutes or so was exploring and pretty much ignoring each other, then mutual grooming and some flops and a little sleep alongside each other

My Bunnies just after grooming needing a rest

I cant help but feel really tense when i put them together, i am always expecting a fight to occur, i can only ever relax when they start grooming, i know they say that they can pick up signals if you are tense but i just cant seem to settle

[pete]

Gave them an other hour this morning with the whole of the landing, mutual grooming again and a couple of flops, bonnie for me has always been the aggressor and he is the one who is always shoving his head under clyde to be groomed, clyde always ignores him at the start of every session and its only about half way through the grooming takes place.

Happy Days

[Sirius&Luna]

They are so cute! Which one is which?

It’s good when they get to the stage where one can request grooms, be rejected, and it doesn’t turn into a scuffle! Definite progress.

[pete]

Thank You, the little bugger Bonnie is at the back.

I have been off work today so have managed 4 sessions of an hour or just over, been really good with plenty mutual grooming and what always looks like kissing each other, climbing all over me, cheek to cheek with plenty stroking which they love.

I will keep going tomorrow and hopefully increase the time at the weekend.

I read recently (not sure which site) that some people seem to go straight to the living area from neutral and miss out any bonding in semi, have you heard that yourself?

thanks 

[Sirius&Luna]

Well there’s lots of different methods, but this is the one that most people on this site advocate. I think especially since yours had problems when you first moved into semi, it’s a good idea. It also means once they’re in their permanent home, you know you can let them out in areas that they’ve both been in before without fights happening.

You’ll need to rearrange and thoroughly clean the permanent living area though, so hopefully it will be easier than semi neutral. You’d probably be ok to do a long session at the weekend, then try permanent home if you have the time.

[pete]

You think i can have another session in semi tomorrow and then try living area at the weekend?

Any advice on cleaning the permanent living area, are we talking every single nook and cranny , plus my bedroom is pretty much a fixed furniture arrangement (attached to walls etc) the cage and x-pen can be rearranged and small things no problem, and all this takes place before i even attempt a session?

Thanks

[pete]

Really positive past few days, had them in semi most the weekend and did a long stint (8 hours), no problems at all.

Decided to go for the big one and give their permanent home a try, managed to move the cage in my bedroom to a different position after a very thorough clean and have split my room in half at the moment, i have completely hidden the bed half of the room(place they love to sit and sleep) with plywood and let them have the other half with the cage, this half has been thoroughly cleaned, i will do the bed area the next couple of days (took me all day yesterday just to do one half).

They have had 24 hours monitored  in the cage half of the room and have been really good (fingers crossed), they wont even leave each others side, i just seen Clyde jump about 3 feet in the air , i am really happy with the progress so far.

[Vienna Blue in France]

Hi sorry I seem to have missed this post but it sounds as if you’re doing very well.
The whole point about cleaning the permanent area very well is so that there are no leftover odours from before for any one bun to get territorial over.
The other reason is to completely change the furniture around so they don’t recognise where they are, this can be done quite simply by putting cardboard boxes in places or picking up the mattress and putting it in a different place. Or turning a chair upside down….. When the bunnies go in together it’s like “hey wow this is the new place we haven’t been here before, let’s explore together”!! And it seems to work!!
But keep going you’re doing great! I went through this year ago and I know it’s awful. You are just always on tenterhooks waiting for one to attack the other, but you will know when it happens because they get lovey-dovey and everything will be hunky-dory.

[pete]

Yes thank you all going good so far, atm had 36 hours together and seem  happy, did notice the first bit of humping before but it did not escalate and  they seemed to just either get away from each other without fighting, and a little bit of a nip, but then groomed not long after,

 I still find it very stressful 

[Sirius&Luna]

How exciting! It sounds like you’re almost ready to declare them bonded!

things like a bit of humping being sorted out without escalating to a fight are really good signs.

Also a huge benefit of having them in your bedroom is that you get to monitor overnights without sleeping on the floor

[pete]

Oh i really hope so, not sure i can call it official just yet! 

I opened up the other half of the bedroom (thorough clean) and they have had the night together which again has gone great, poor bonnie had around an hour of clyde being really excited with quite persistent attempts at humping, again no aggression just bonnie getting out of the way, in fact every attempt by clyde would end with bonnie tucking her head under clyde for a groom so i have not witnessed any antagonism as yet.

I just worry when i am not around it can continue and lead to something a bit more nasty, is this clyde trying to be the dominate one and will it calm down?

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

It should definitely calm down, he’s trying to assert his dominance in the new space, but they should settle down after a couple of days – this is why it’s good to watch them carefully for 48 hours when you move them to a new space. But, it sounds like they’re dealing with it well, so while you should keep an eye on them of course, I also wouldn’t be too concerned about it escalating.

Are there still lots of positive behaviours?

[pete]

Plenty of grooming still and flopping, both like to be stroked together with their heads touching and relaxing side by side, just want to be in a position I can totally relax leaving them all the time.

[thumpers momma]

wow, this was great to read through! i’m starting over with a clean slate with my buns, and this was all very informative. i’m so glad it’s been working for you–it gives me hope! how are your buns doing now?

[pete]

They are doing great thank you, so pleased and this site has helped me so much, great help, i hope you have good fortune with your bunnies

[pete]

My Bonded Bonnie & Clyde

I would like to thank you so much for all your help ( and everybody who has had an input on this thread), could not have done it without this site and your help, much appreciated it really is

I am actually going away for a few weeks and so much wanted them bonded before so it would be so much easier for family to care for them, so this is a massive bonus for me.

So back to B&C, been over a week now and all is great, follow each other around all the time, plenty grooming, sleeping together,eating together, and playing having fun. Bonnie is always rejecting Clyde’s advances (which happens a few times a day) but just shrugs it off and it never lasts more than a few seconds and never turns to aggression.

I have noticed that they show me less affection now and don’t seem to like much contact as before.

When do you think i can introduce them to my living room area baring in mind they did have a few bad fights in there last year, would all that be forgotten now?

Thanks 

  

[Sirius&Luna]

Yay! I’m so glad to see them bonded. You really deserve it after all your persistence!

I’m sure they will come back to being more affectionate with you once they settle into their relationship a bit more.

It should be fine to introduce them to your living room, but I would probably leave them where they are to settle into the bond for a month or so before adding extra space

[pete]

Hello, so back from hols and everything went great with family looking after B&C, no problems at all and i nearly lost them as family wanted to take them home.

I have removed the cage now and just given them a corner with litter trays etc so the bedroom is now their official free roam home.

I have noticed Clyde still getting frisky with attempts at humping but again never any aggression, just confuses me really because i thought the whole point of a neuter would completely stop this kind of behaviour!

I would like to try and introduce them to my living room area now (under supervision as its not really bunnie proof ) if you think that would be ok to do?, they have had a good month together or should i wait just a little bit longer?

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m glad they’re doing well!

Even bonded bunnies do hump sometimes.. and especially during spring. So I wouldn’t worry too much as long as it’s not escalating or distressing Bonnie. It could still be an assertion of dominance as well.

I think there’s no harm in trying the living room they should be fine

[pete]

Hello just thought i would update everybody if they followed my bonding thread.

I Got in touch with Sirius and Luna who helped me a lot during my bonding process so if anybody has had similar situations their input would be much appreciated.

so sorry to contact you via message but the forum is down and i need your advice please. Clyde was poorly over the weekend so a visit to the vet was needed yesterday, i had to separate them for 24 hours with Clyde in the living room with me and Bonnie in their home (bedroom), i put back Clyde with Bonnie this morning and everything seemed fine, grooming etc, Bonnie then came into the living room where Clyde had spent the night (they do both have free roam of the living room when i am home), back into the bedroom and they had a pretty bad fight, i intervened and tried to calm them down and another fight started, plenty fur and aggression. They are now separated Bonnie in bedroom and clyde in living room, i do have a grid door which attaches to the bedroom so they cant come out at night, i have let them see each other through the grid door and they have tried to bite each other. I dont know what i should do, do i leave Bonnie in the bedroom (i dont want him to get territorial ), or do i put them both on the landing separated so they are both sharing a semi neutral space together. Thank You

I’m sorry to hear Clyde was ill! Hope he’s doing better now. Unfortunately this is pretty common with taking just one rabbit being taken to the vet, as they smell different when they come back. Sometimes just one rabbit being ill can cause fights too. If I was you I would keep them where they can see each other but can’t touch for a couple of days on the landing, then try them in neutral territory again. Hopefully it won’t be a long rebounding process, as they should remember each other. Sorry this has happened, you worked so hard on that bond!

[pete]

I am really stressed out at the moment and feel i have lost them both, can not believe after only 1 day they are fighting, i am unsure about giving them exercise, do i use the bedroom(their home)or the living room where they are both at the moment.

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi Pete,

I think it’s probably worth starting a new thread, as I think sometimes people ignore threads that have got this long! If you start a new thread with a title like ‘broken bond’, then people who have experienced this will be able to give their advice

[pete]

thanks

[Author]

Messages