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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING Happy news turned to sad news.

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    • Starla
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        Background on buns:

        Houdini is a male neutered jersey wooly around 3-4 pounds. Houdini was always sweet to Sev and tried to go up in a nice manner. He recently started showing aggression back whenever Severus did. However, he still was sweet to her. 

        Severus is a shorthaired females spayed and is around 8=9 pounds. Sev is my aggressor. Just always honked, nipped, or started a fight with Houdini during bonding sessions. She would also honk and scratch at the pens when Houdini was near her (there is extra protection added to the pens).

        I posted this into the rescue page so I’m just going to repost what I said:

        What is going on. I accidentally left both Houdini’s and sevs play pens open. Sev waltz into Houdini’s pen took a look around completely ignoring him. Houdini went to sniff her and she saw him and sniffed him too. Poor Houdini jumped because he thought sev was going to honk and maybe give a nip. Nope, sev just sniffed then left. Houdini is so confused and so am I. I’m letting them run around my room together with both pens open. No aggression from sev at all, really they are just ignoring each other. Well Houdini went to maybe get another sniff of her but got to nervous . I’m so confused but so happy. Maybe this move helped? I mean I’m pretty sure 2 nights ago sev and Houdini were honking at each other (mainly sev) stretching at the pens at each other and now sev can causally be In the same room with him Even sniff Houdini without honking or nipping ?? Please let this be forever !! Ah they just sniffed each other’s faces and no aggression at all! Finally !!! I don’t want to get my hopes up but it’s looking good!!

        Lasted about 30 mins. Im not sure who started the fight but bam we got a fight. They are now sniffing each other through the pens and no aggression. I’m just confused. Maybe it was a fluke?

        I stopped the fight, it was a mobile fight. Meaning they moved one place to another. Not injuries, some hair loss. 

        What do I do?


      • DanaNM
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          Sorry I’m confused…. If I understand correctly, they are not bonded yet? But one got into the other’s area, and you let them stay there?

          If that’s the case, then it is not surprising that they fought.

          Stop letting them interact if it isn’t during bonding session in neutral space, and you should probably let them settle down for a while to let them forget the fight. Fights can really set bonding back.

          . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


        • Starla
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            Severus=Sev=she=her=agressor

            Houdini=he=him=non-agressor

            Let me clear it up. Yes, I actually had just moved so outside the cage was neutral. Severus got into Houdini’s (non-agressive one), and I was very close watching to see if Sev was going to go into a cage of Houdini’s territory to fight. Just to see the extent of agression she has. She then left the cage so I figured okay, maybe lets try to bond in the neutral space (outside their cage was pretty neutral since they hadn’t have had time out of their cage yet due to me moving and not having time to bunny-proof. Left both cages open for first five minutes (will explain really why I did, didn’t let both in the same cage after I saw the extent of Sev’s agression/first minute, she only wanted to check out Houdini’s space so that was a thumbs up). So the fight happened in the neutral space. But before the fight they were exploring and sniffing eachother for at least 30 minutes. 

            After the fight and now I have separated them and waited to bond. I never locked them in together in either of their pens. Houdini did explore Sev’s cage but I was close to them to make sure she wasn’t going to go in there (since it’s her territory). But that happened in the beginning of my “surprise” bonding time.

            I was just surprised that they were doing so well. I never planned on bonding them in my room. Since the neutral space thing, I’ve done lots of research. 

            The only time Sev won’t fight after a given time (sometimes it’s instantly, sometimes she would wander around first) is if they are in a carrier in a moving car or when they are in the stroller. It has improved with the time it takes her to fight. But 30 minutes? Never! 5 minutes would be a miracle especially when they ran into eachother while exploring the new environment. That was where the shock came in. I’m starting to think that one of them did something to piss off the other. I wasn’t really watching them super closely, I was actually messaging someone about it at the time it happened. Maybe one tried to mount the other, but I was able to react instantly (the message could wait) so I could intervene.

            Answer: 

            Yes I let the agressor into the non-agressor’s territory to see if she was so agressive that she ran into his pen to start a fight. I’m trying to figure out her agression. However, she explored his pen and then left. I called an unexpected bonding situation. Left both of their pens open so they can explore each others. After, I did not let both (nor did they try) go into the agressors cage due to the territory. I just wanted to give the non-agressor a chance to check out the agressors cage. I was trying to explore why they haven’t been able to bond yet. After a given 5 minutes, i did close both cages cause the non-agressor got a chance to explore the agressors cage alone and the agressor got to do the same with the non-agressor. ( I really wanted to see if the non-agressor liked the bunny adobe cause that will be his future home lol but while he did that I let the other bun just check his out if she wanted and she did)

            The fight was after those pens were closed. In a neutral territory, not even close to the pens. I was stationed by both pens with my computer for observation and to give pets. 

            I feel the wording made it more confusing as I reread it but I kinda said the same thing in multiple ways and sorry about my spelling.


          • Mikey
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              Sorry to hear that theyve fought. To be fair, it sounds like youre moving too fast for them. I would try to take bonding more slowly, especially since you just moved. Moving can be scary and stressful for bunnies.


            • Starla
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                What sucks is I have been bonding them for almost a year. It was a spur of the moment. They seemed to be getting along. I figured stress, yes!! Stress bonding doesn’t work for Severus, unless the car or stroller like I mentioned so I thought maybe she’s stressed. Take advantage!! I know them well enough that if I thought that it was to stressful of a moment then I wouldn’t of went into the spur of the moment bonding session. Severus didn’t get very stressed about the move, Houdini was stressed for maybe 2 days (he has moved before, he is a rescue). Overall, they seemed happier lol. They love the flooring I put that gives them more traction to the floor (its not everywhere in their pens, just in spaces they slip usually).

                It seemed like a green light to start a session. After Sev did what she did and there was no aggression so I contact the rescue I am fostering Houdini from’s president. She said give it a go. They have bonded a plethora of rabbits. They literally have at least 10, I’m thinking more towards 20 rabbits at their own home not counting the rabbits at foster’s homes. They even take in rabbits from foster to adopt houses to help bond them so the person can decide if they should adopt or find another foster bun. I really don’t want to give them my rabbits. They have bonded rabbits so quick too. So clearly she has seen it before so that is why she gave me the go and thats why I trusted her and we both knew that either rabbit could get aggressive because that’s the normal from Sev but we thought maybe it could be a break through since the rescue have seen it before.

                Their pens are together (with an extra metal grid), I have swapped pens/litter boxes, and dont all the stress bonding ways and non-stress bonding. I have recently taken things slower (for a few months) since things weren’t working. That is why I got so excited to see the response.  

                I can’t agree that I rushed them. I also don’t think I made a bad choice by doing the out of the blue bonding session, if you see a toddler trying to use the restroom (potty training) so you stop them because it may be not be a good time or they may not seem ready? That’s the way I see it although I could of used a better analogy. I’m not surprised that a fight broke out either, I would of been able to respond quicker if we were doing a planned bonding session b/c there would be less space for them. It was weird because there was no warning signs that made me believe they were going to fight. Literally zero honks from either then bam fight and honking. The only thing I wish is that they had less space to move around so I could be more ready. But like I said I fostered the moment and it turned out as a good session minus the fight. Usually the sessions are many honks to the point where I have to stop or to the point I know they are able to fight so I have to stop. 

                I really want to know if there is reason my female was acting that way at first? She is an aggressor literally with short phases of not doing so or she can get distracted. I just don’t understand how she went so long without a single honk and they passed each other and smelt eachother multiple timessss.


              • sarahthegemini
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                  Sorry but I’m really struggling to follow the events of what happened. Are you saying you let one bun into the other bun’s area just to see if there would be aggression? I’m so confused.

                  Also, you mentioned that you wasn’t watching them closely. That is a big mistake. You shouldn’t take your eye off of them even for a second, especially when they’ve got a history of fighting…


                • Starla
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                    I know it was my big mistake to not have 100% eyes on them. I was trying to communicate with the rescue’s president about the situation. The fight wasn’t horrible either, i stopped it maybe in 3 seconds. Very little hair loss (and Houdini is a jersey wooly).

                    The whole pen/cage scenario lastly 30 second to 1 minute. Sev entered the cage between my legs and since she was in there I wanted to see why. Standing very close to houdini hovering over him with my hands 4 inches away from him. I let her because i was curious is she just went into his pen to attack him. If that happened, i would bring them to the rescue for help because that would just make Sev really mean. She looked around and then sniffed Houdini and left (during that sniff I was super nervous). And she waltz out and I thought nose to nose and no honk?? So then I let houdini check out Sev’s pen (without sev. i made sure she couldnt get in). Then I closed both pens and they were running around a no- territory space ( i just moved ) everything was jolly for maybe 30 minutes then as i was typing to the rescue asking for advice, the fight started. 

                    The whole bun in another bun cage was the beginning. I would never let one bun in another buns cage without all eyes on them (i really wanted to see why Sev went in there in the first place). 

                    I’m really trying to find out why Sev was so okay with Houdini for the 30 minutes. That is really what I’m confused about. 

                    I want to make sure I know all the behaviors of them so I can do better with bonding (one reason I wanted to see why Sev went into Houdini’s cage) to see if it was because of Houdini or if she wanted to explore. 

                    I don’t want to give up on them as a bonding fail. Also after the fight they acted like nothing happened. I’ve had a scenario where Sev wouldnt stop honking and was about to start a fight the whole time (i try to leave bonding sessions on a positive note) and I ended up ending it and Sev was honking at Houdini still while in their pens. So this fight defiantly wasn’t so dramatic on them. They still will go up the where they pens meet and lay down near eachother. Didn’t even affect their eating because I gave “fresh” hay to them after and they ran up to eat it. Which they don’t do when stressed .

                    Sorry I’m so bad at explaining it. It was so weird. It also hard to explain both of the buns behaviors and personalities. 


                  • DanaNM
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                      I’m sorry I don’t quite follow everything either, but what I did gather is they don’t fight in the car, and they don’t fight immediately.

                      So, I would advise first taking a few weeks break to let them both calm down a bit. Then start doing only short car ride or stroller sessions (5-10 minutes). Then start doing very short sessions in neutral space , like 30 seconds. Whatever the minimum is to guarantee they will not fight. You need to allow them to build trust. You can do stressing sessions for a couple days, then a short non-stress one, then back to the car, etc. Then work up to 1 minute… 2 minutes… etc. watch them like a hawk. If they run up to each other, pet them both and swap scents, then end the date. You absolutely must stop all fighting before it happens and end on a positive note. Since they have fallen into this pattern of fighting it will be hard to break it, but since they don’t fight in the car I think there might be hope.

                      . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                    • DanaNM
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                        I’ll just add, be very aware of their body language. If they approach each other with ears forward and tail down, that is a positive approach (“I’m curious or interested in you”). Ears back and tail up (“I’m about to attack you”).

                        In order to break their cycle of fighting you must stop fighting before it happens, and don’t push dates to the point where they turn sour. I know it’s tempting to keep going when things are going well, but in this stage it’s important to set time goals and stick to them (and only push to the goal if things are going well).

                        As far as the bonding space (in neutral space), it should be large enough for them to escape each other (I like a space about 10-15 square feet: big enough for them to get away, but not so big they can just ignore each other), should not be within site of either of their cages, and at this stage it should NOT have: litter boxes, food (aside from scattered hay), hiding boxes, toys. Since you just moved, it would be good to keep part of your house completely bunny-free so you have a good area to bond in.

                        You also talk a lot about putting them in a cage together? This is not a good idea, because if something happens it could be hard to get to them, and they have very little space to get away from each other. An x-pen or a small room (like a bathroom) works well.

                        Also, you didn’t mention if you had done pre-bonding (cage-swaps), but you should be. You can swap them every day or two for the next 3-4 weeks while they are taking their break from bonding, and then continue the cage-swaps once you start sessions again.

                        Absolutely do not let them in each other’s territory if they other bunny is there. Recipe for disaster. Not to humanize them too much, but imagine these were humans. Someone just shows up in your house and says, I live here now! Would you be happy about it? Imagine you meet someone and have a bad first impression, and then you keep getting in arguments with them. Can you ever become friends? Yes, probably, but not guaranteed, and only if you can build up lots of good experiences with that person.

                        . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                      • Mikey
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                          Yikes, trying for a year with no progression is hard I agree that you should give them a month or two break and then consider trying again. But, to be very honest (at this point based on what youve written), it sounds like they just do not get along and do not like one another.


                        • sarahthegemini
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                            It sucks that you’ve spent a year on this but what you have been doing has been detrimental to their potential bond so it’s not too surprising that they aren’t making progress. Unless I’m misunderstanding (again, I’m still not 100% clear) they have a history of aggression, you allow one bun into the others territory to ‘see if there’s aggression’ and despite the fights, you are just continuing. It seems like they are getting nasty with one another because one bun is having his territory ‘invaded’ and because you’re still trying bonding sessions, that built up anger at one another is coming out. Bunnies hold grudges and if they’ve been fighting or trying to fight, they are not going to forget before you put them together again. You need to keep them apart and do a complete reset.


                          • Starla
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                              She (Severus) has always been aggressive towards him since we got him (Houdini). I don’t want to give up because I love Houdini now, hes my son. I know its hard to follow because I’m not so organized so I want to be. Also let me mention they have not been in a lot of fights. I think it has been a total of 2-3 in a year. I stop the aggressive lunges. Houdini was a coward at first, but now he has gained confidence. It sucks cause Houdini loves Severus, Severus feels the opposite about Houdini. I can tell he loves b/c he lights up when she is near his pen the same way Severus lights up when I come home. I think she just isn’t okay with the idea of having a mate. I’m hoping once she realizes he isn’t leaving that she will come to terms. I have made mistakes of course but nothing has happened that I think that would scar them (or doesn’t seem to have scared them). Sev has days where she seems more okay with him being next to her pen (his pen is) but then other days she is like NOPE. I need to get back to stroller rides. Houdini would curl up next to Sev (which I knew made him happy) and she would look around (I only leave the top open if Im in motion, she will jump out when the stroller is stopped but goes no where near the approach to jump when moving). Sev would sometimes cuddle back! I’m in an apartment now so I’m unsure of any good paths to make with them!


                            • Mikey
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                                Youre safer having two separate single bunnies at this point. If after a year they cant make progress, its very unlikely they will ever make progress. Bonding is very stressful, which you shouldnt want to do to them for over a year.

                                I recommend you stop all together for about two months. Each bun in different rooms. After those two months, start over with prebonding for a month or two. If after those four months they still show no progress, they will not bond.

                                You can have two happy single bunnies. My Badger is a single bun because of health issues, and he absolutely loves it because he gets more toys, food, run space, attention, ect than if he had to share it in a bonded pair (or trio, in my case).


                              • Starla
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                                  I would be okay with two separate buns and if needs to be then so be it. I also would love to separate them. The problem is that I just moved into an apartment so I now have one room (I used to have two at the house). I can’t put them outside my room because I dont trust my mom’s cats and tbh there isn’t much space for them either. My moms room has no space either. I have space for them here because my mom gave me the master. However, extra space would be nice, I still have so much furniture at my dads house. Anyways, one reason I really want to bond them is because when I do live on my own, I’m not sure how much space I will be able to get and if I need space for two x-pens it may be difficult. (I signed up for this knowing they live long, but it would just be a positive). 

                                  If they can’t become friends then fine! I can live with that even with the negatives. Do you think if I did choose to have them as separate buns that they could still have their cages next to each other?

                                  I also should add that I haven’t been doing well on doing bonding sessions throughout the almost year. I had many life changes that occurred (I didn’t neglect them, just didn’t have much time to do bonding sessions since that adds on time). Do you think a better routine could help? If it is even possible that it affected their bonding?

                                  Also if I choose to keep them separate could I still bring them on stroller rides together? They really seem to enjoy it, I’m not sure if it is much a stresser since Sev seems so happy to be outside and look around as well as Houdini, Houdini also loves the cuddles. They won’t even jump out of the stroller when inside. Lol Sev has tried to jump out when we were outside but I don’t think its cause she didnt like it, she is a head up feel the breeze kind of girl but when she’s nervous she will lay down (for example the bumpy path at my old house). I could be wrong but I believe they truly like it and I like doing it for the exercise thing (i wouldnt go on walks by myself or have motivation to do so).


                                • Deleted User
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                                    My buns cages are about a foot apart, so that’s totally fine. If there’s a lot of aggression, I’d recommend putting something over the sides of the cage of whichever bun isn’t out during playtime. It might seem a little mean, but it’ll prevent any unwarranted nips from either bun.


                                  • DanaNM
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                                      I think Mikey’s advice is very good, and I would try to time things so you start the actual bonding sessions during a time when you can consistently date them every day for several weeks.

                                      Needing to skip a day here and there is fine, but once you start dating them, it’s very important to be consistent.

                                      And yes, having their cages next to each other if they don’t bond is fine, so long as they can’t access each other, and neither seems distressed by the other bunny.

                                      . . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  


                                    • Fluffykins
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                                        Before I read your very last post, from your language so far I kinda knew you can’t have been actively doing proper bonding /pre bonding etc sessions for the past year. You just confirmed it – so Yep, that’s your problem and answer in one.

                                        When you start bonding you need to do it properly. The best thing to do now would be completely separate them, figure out a time in your life you will be able to concentrate on bonding for a couple months then start it again, properly this time.

                                        You say they fought then actually didn’t fight much, you say you’ve been trying for a year then actually not really trying for a year… apologies if this comes across harsh but it seems like it really is your lack of planning and commitment to this that’s hindering it. They sound like a very plausible pair.


                                      • Deleted User
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                                          Just chiming in to say that if these bunnies have a history of fighting and mistrust each other, it might be detrimental to keep them living together as separate singles. I’m sure that you want to keep them both, but if you can’t get them to bond it probably isn’t best to force them to live next to each other in a small space. More separation would be ideal, such as completely separate rooms.

                                          I say this because if you have been trying for over a year and they do not want to get along, then you have to consider the stress that it causes each of them to be around someone that they do not get along with, and have fought frequently. This constant stress can be very taxing on a bunny, who naturally has a low stress threshold. I had a pair that I tried to bond and it wasn’t working. They started out fine, but as the male became more comfortable her continued to pick fights with my female and I gave up. From the first day that he was gone, I immediately noticed Ophelia being more active and happy and binkying all over her increased space. So you should consider the welfare of both rabbits if they don’t bond. I would advise housing them in separate rooms if you choose to keep them, as this may help to minimize the constant stress.


                                        • Starla
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                                            Just want to add that bonding for done the proper way for a certain amount of months. The problem was the move that affected it. I will say that when they are in there xpens, they show no aggression. I have not tried bonding them since the move, b/c right now my schedule is whack and I know that I may not be able to follow through. I just want to follow up that in no way was I rushing them. What happened was curiosity was a fluke (yes this was maybe a rusher but do not assume that is how i had been trying to bond them before). And they actually didnt even resent or show more anger towards each other after. The fight wasnt that bad, I tend to exaggerate, b/c any fight is bad to me. I do not mind if they never bond, i do not care. I think at the time I may of not been thinking with the whole parent seperaton, me thinking about moving out from my new place after i graduate from college so just the adulting things and i also think my mind set at the time was to much in the same mindset at work, lol. When you work at a school and see something impressive, you build up on it. But rabbits aren’t kids (but they still are my kids). They actually never have shown any stress from any bonding after 5 minutes from returning. And they never try to bring the fight back into the cage ( has happened months ago ). I do want them bonded mainly for space, i would love to have them free roam. I think it would be unfair to let one free roam and not the other. I think I wil try bonding again, just when I have the schedule that i once had where I can be consistent. I gave up bonding once the schedule got messed up. I still have very detailed notes from the sessions that describe any behavior and what time it happened. I agree that if the aggression happened when they were in their cages that best for them would be to move them apart or in different rooms. it’s not the case. They binky and run around. I give them individual time outside their cage now. (my room is not good for bonding anymore, i know this). and to the person commenting on my wording, please never judge from the way i put things. especially when I was in distress. I’m terrible with typing my actual thoughts and my attempt to do so should not be the “judgement” of what I am always doing. Sudden stress and a life change can affect actions, doesnt mean I havent done “proper bonding”. It was a one time bad judgement by myself, but this judgement didnt affect them at all. They never fought before this, by fighting I mean aggression from one bun and me stopping it. Again, Im bad at typing what I mean sometimes. Once i saw that the bonding schedule got messed up, i quit. This fluke excluded.
                                            I appreciate the advise I really was not in the right mind, I spent many many hours maybe equivalent to days researching bonding but for some reason I let this happen. But now I know when huge life events happen to think twice when it comes to any of my decisions.
                                            Hope that made sense!! I’m now faced with another bun problem that is really stressing me out and my new fish has ich! Ugg, I guess my time with no problems is over, but I enjoyed the break!! Lol

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                                        Forum BONDING Happy news turned to sad news.