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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Sneezing – Antibiotic Advice

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    • MiNinoJack
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        Hi – I’m just being preemptive here. 

        My bun is sneezing a lot today. Could be the dusty hay I’ve been getting (I’ve bought more but Kayee and Oxbow are both AWFUL lately), or it could be an infection. He has a little dried sleep in his eyes that I’ve been removing, but it comes back. Its not excessive, but its there and combined with the sneezing fits I’m concerned. I’m taking him to the vet tomorrow morning. They think he needs a flush. 

        BUT if he does need a round of antibiotics do you guys have any suggestions to make it go easier? I see so many posts about Baytril causing stasis. Obviously I want to avoid that and if I can I want to be proactive about keeping his gut bacteria going strong. He’s a difficult patient – doesn’t like meds, but last time I needed to give him metacam he took it when I put it on his cilantro. 

        Any advice you have would be appreciated!

         


      • Bam
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          The sleep in his eyes can be from dust too, from the eye cleaning itself of dust-particles, but I can see why you are concerned. And better safe than sorry, right? =)
          Most bunnies that get baytril do fine on it – keep in mind that people often post on forums when they encounter a problem and not when everything is just fine. Few people join a rabbit forum just to say how great their bunny is doing on a particular med.

          Baytril and really all abx have an impact on the GI microbiota, and some vets recommend you combine the abx with a probiotic. The types that have lactobacillus have not been proven to be effective in rabbits – it’s a type of bacteria they just don’t have naturally in their GI system. There is however other bacteria that are more promising, particularly one called enterococcus faecium that is prevalent in healthy bunny guts and has the ability to adhere to the intestinal wall and “push away” bad bacteria. Benebac contains this type of bacteria. There are other brands that do too.

          Other than that – you can stock up on a sachet of Critical Care in case you’ll need to support feed him (always good to keep a bit of CC in your first aid-kit!), some baby gas drops (simethicone) in case he gets gas – and then you just keep a somewhat close eye on output (poop) and intake (appetite).

          I hope this is just hay-dust and nothing worse, but I’m sending him some good vibes anyway ((((((Jack))))))


        • MiNinoJack
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            Thanks Bam! Is benebac something that vets carry? I found it online a few places, but I’m not sure if its the right product.

            Found this on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/PetAg-Bene-Bac-Pet-Gram-Syringe/dp/B0002ASS0W

            He doesn’t really have any discharge and he’s eating fine so I hope its just dusty! I vacuum regularly, but this time of year its not really enough.


          • Bam
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              Benebac comes both in powder and as a gel. The powder can be sprinkled on wet greens or on the pellets. I don’t know if vets carry it but we have members who use it. I have used the same probiotic bacteria but made by another brand (a UK brand, currently not available in the USA), it’s a powder. The advantage the powder has over the gel is probably that the powder keeps longer (and lasts longer).


            • LittlePuffyTail
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                Some vets carry Benebac. My vet does. And some pet stores carry it as well.

                Some bunnies are more sensitive to Baytril. Bindi has been on it numerous times with no problems. My vet always advises carefully monitoring poop and appetite while on antibiotics.

                Best of luck at the vet!


              • MiNinoJack
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                  Ok so, we got back from the vet a little while ago. She basically told me that Jack is on the borderline. Meaning that the sneezing isn’t good, but it could be an irritant and not an infection. BUT it is possible to be a mild infection, but she says his ears and eyes and everything look fine. He was fighting her pretty hard, but she finally was able to get a good look. He was so scared! He shook the whole time, poor guy. She also thought that he was either abused or severely neglected as a young bun which is why he’s so skittish. That basically coincides with what I thought too.

                  She said it was my choice to give him the antibiotics or not. I decided to take them home with me, but then just monitor how he does. If he gets another sneezing fit or if there is any discharge I can start him on the antibiotics. In your experience to do you think it would be ok to “wait and see?” I bought benebac online and it should be delivered today in case I need it, although the vet said she’s not sure if it works since rabbits’ stomach is so acidic that she’s not convinced the bacteria survives all the way to his gut. She said it couldn’t hurt though.

                  On the positive side, they sell this organic semi-local hay and it is GORGEOUS. Not cheap, but Oxbow has been sending me nothing but pulverized hay recently so I decided to give it a try. It smells and looks amazing. It has little flowers in it too. Jack loves it! He pushed his old hay aside just to get a bite of this stuff. He’s fancy.


                • LittlePuffyTail
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                    I would probably wait and see. If the sneezing is not that bad, it probably would be okay. If it continues, you can always ask the vet to do a culture (or go see another vet). That way the vet can check for bacteria to know if meds are needed for sure. It’s unpleasant for the bun (they put a swap up the nose) but only lasts for a few seconds.


                  • Bam
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                      I agree with LPT, abx are hard on tummies (not just bunny-tummies). But if it gets worse or if you see any type of thick-ish snot etc, start the Baytril asap. 

                      One of the bacteria in Benebac, Enterococcus faecium, has been shown to survive the very acidic environment in the bunny gut, I quote from an article in Veterinary Times: “E faecium (and E faecalis)are Gram-positive bacteria used to control contamination in food, feed and the digestive tract of animals. They are the predominant enterococcal species in the rabbit gut and are able to survive the acidic gastric pH, colonise the mucosal surfaces and prevent the attachment of pathogens (Linaje et al, 2004).”

                      It’s the “prevent attachment of pathogens” that’s most interesting, since that’s what you fear the most with abx treatment of rabbits, that a lot of of the good healthy bacteria in the gut is killed off by the abx, leaving an open field for bad bacteria. 

                      Here’s the full article. It’s long, but it has some interesting info:

                      http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/b…t-rabbits/


                    • MiNinoJack
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                        Thank you! When it comes to my own healthcare (especially as a woman) I am very wary of antibiotics and try not to take them unless absolutely necessary. I want to follow the same thought process with my bun. Of course, if he needs them he needs them. I was a little surprised she didn’t do a culture, but I guess she felt since she didn’t see any problems the added stress wasn’t necessary. He couldn’t even keep still to let her check his ears. It took a few tries.

                        This is only our second vet visit, but he was really hating it today. Full body shakes. I felt so bad he was that scared, but he wouldn’t listen to me when I told him it was for his own good. He’s fine now. Maybe he was scared I was going to leave him there.

                        Thank you for that article Bam! I’ll look it over. This vet (different than the one I saw the first time, but the same office) is supposed to be very rabbit savvy as she has 2 of her own and the local House Rabbit Society recommended her. Perhaps she doesn’t know about this article as we’re in the US and that’s a UK study? I’m happy to know that E faecium survives.


                      • Bam
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                          Buns so rarely listen when you tell them that you’re doing things for their own good! Poor little darling =( My buns don’t like vet-visits either. They jump into my arms, it feels very flattering, but it’s just panic =(

                          It could be your vet didn’t do a culture since the bacterial species that often (but not always) is pasteurella multocida, and pasteurella can be found in both sick and perfectly healthy rabbits. Why some buns get sick from pasteurella and others don’t is not known. But pasteurella (and bordetella, another potential snuffles-causing bact) are sensitive to Baytril, so Baytril is generally first choice, if that doesn’t help, then you proceed to do a culture. It’s not even sure in your case that there actually is an infection, so perhaps your vet didn’t think a full-blown investigation (with the risk of false positives) was warranted, at least not at this stage.

                          I have a supplement with only enterococcus faecium for my buns, it’s a UK brand, so maybe this bacteria is mostly utilized in the UK. I don’t know if the findings the article refers to are controversial in some way. It absolutely used to be true that probiotics for bunnies probably had little or no effect, since the bacteria used were types that are not naturally occuring in the rabbit gut. Medirabbit and HRS both says that probiotics for buns MIGHT help, but they are likely to never reach their target organs (intestines) but die of the strong stomach acid – they won’t however harm, so they’re safe to give.

                          I think it’s lovely that you’ve found a rabbit savvy vet! Yay for rabbit-savvy vets, there ought to be more of them!


                        • LittlePuffyTail
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                            I know how you feel. My Olivia is absolutely terrified at the vet. I keep thinking she is going to hyperventilate. Seeing her so upset is very stressful for Mama. I wish we could just tell them we are bringing them there because we love them.


                          • MiNinoJack
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                              I want to cry the whole time! I feel ridiculous, but its so hard when they can’t understand what’s happening.

                              So he’s still sneezing a bit here and there, but no fits. No discharge. I really don’t know if I should start the abx or not. Its TMS Suspension. Not sure if that’s Baytril or not.


                            • MiNinoJack
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                                Also – he’s grunting today more than normal. Like I’m annoying the crap out of him! haha

                                I understand it’s their way of communicating, but its not normal for him. He also has an eye boogie that I can’t seem to get out. He’s had them before and he usually gets them out on his own, but its been there for a couple days moving around his right eye.

                                He’s eating and flopping normally, but has no tolerance for me today. Is this a sign of illness or just him being annoyed with me about yesterday (or something else)?


                              • Bam
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                                  As always, appetite and poop (amount, size, color) are what you look at when you suspect sth is off with your bun. Eating and flopping normally re very good sign. They absolutely can be wary of their human after a visit to the vet or some other really unpleasant experience. It can last several days.

                                  You can rinse his eye with saline eye rinse for humans to get the eye boogie out.


                                • MiNinoJack
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                                    I think his grunts are cute  I doubt he feels the same way. 

                                    Yeah I’m watching all of that. I am thankful he’s such a good eater. I’m just hoping this respiratory stuff fades away. That could happen. Right?  


                                  • Bam
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                                      Yes, it could happen, esp since you’ve gotten hold of some really good hay now instead of pulverized :/
                                      You could set a date like a week from now and if he’s still sneezing and still has eye boogers then, it’s abx-time. It’s sometimes helpful to give yourself a time line. You could also make a note of every time you hear him sneeze, because we often can’t remember exactly how much sneezing there’s actually been. It’ll help you see if there’s an increase or decrease in frequency too over these next few days.


                                    • MiNinoJack
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                                        That’s great advice. Thank you!!


                                      • MiNinoJack
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                                          Ok so I think I just witnessed coughing??? He was going little hiccupy like thinks with a little squeak at the end. Mouth closed. Maybe 8 of them in a row. He seemed unconcerned. Was that a cough?

                                          He sneezing had lessened, although still happens on occasion. Still no discharge. Eating and pooing normally. Normal energy level.

                                          Is it time to start the antibiotics?


                                        • LittlePuffyTail
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                                            Could have been hiccups. Bindi gets hiccups once in a while.

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                                        Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Sneezing – Antibiotic Advice