Vet visit = breaking bunny bond

[Karla]

I’ve been thinking…and I would really like some input and comments on my thoughts in regarding to the risk of breaking a bond between bonded bunnies. The dynamics just sort of confuse me.

I have three points, I would like a comment on. Here goes:

1. Some of you suggests that when one bunny is in for a vet visit, you should always bring the bonded pair/trio/foursome to avoid breaking the bond. The theory is that the bunny will pick up a new scent at the vet and will thus be at risk of not being welcomed by the bunnies at home. But  if the bunny is only at the vet for 10 min, then that is a very short period for picking up a completely new and unrecognisable scent. Can a rabbit really be unrecognisable after just 10 min. somewhere else?
   Not according to the studies of R.M Lockley* if I remember correctly.
    
2. If a bunny does in fact pick up a new scent very quickly (10 min.), then that problem should be easily solved by keeping the bunny in a carrier with a towel – both having the regular scent from home - on the way home/for as long as it spent at the vet’s. During the ride home, the bunny should thus get its old scent back.
    
3. Let’s say it is not the smell in the room, but it is the vet touching the bunny that causes the different scent. Then every time a visitor to our home pets one of our bunnies, there should be a risk of breaking the bond. I recall that R.M Lockley* would handle his wild rabbits and examine them and them put them back in their warren without problems.
    

Anyone with inputs or comments? Your experience?

* R.M Lockley researched on wild rabbits

[Deleted User]

I wonder if it isn’t always a matter of scent that causes disturbance in a bond after a singular rabbit’s trip to the vet. It may be levels of stress in the vetted rabbit that causes an upset.

I break up my group a couple of times per week for exercise time and the reunion in their common pen can be tumultuous. It settles down quickly, though. It is meant as a practice run and to habituate my rabbits to individuals entering and exiting the group.

[Karla]

I think you may be right about the stress causing a different scent. Although you wouldn’t think that splitting your group for exercise time would cause stress?

I was thinking that perhaps it is the strange behaviour from the bunny that has been at the vet perhaps that is causing the turmoil, but that is sort of linked to the stress.

Examples:
When Jack came back from his surgery and was in pain, Molly reacted by being timid, nervous and completely frantic about being groomed by both Karl and Jack. Jack – clearly in pain – would not groom her, which prompted her to chase him. Karl didn’t react differently to him.

Now, Jack is feeling bad again, and Molly is reacting by chasing him. Not in a hostile manner, but more like “Hey, you are acting strange. Groom me and let me know everything is okay”-way.

[Sarita]

I can just tell you my particular experience with one of my duos that is now a single due to one passing away.

Twizzler was at the vet’s constantly and even overnight in a few cases and I never had a problem with putting her back with Toffee at all. Ever.

It just didn’t make alot of sense for me to take both in.

So I can tell you that each case is different.

I can only speak for these 2 though.

I cannot speak for my other pair though since I’ve never had to do this.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Karla on 02/23/2010 09:04 AM
I think you may be right about the stress causing a different scent. Although you wouldn’t think that splitting your group for exercise time would cause stress?

I was thinking that perhaps it is the strange behaviour from the bunny that has been at the vet perhaps that is causing the turmoil, but that is sort of linked to the stress.

I mentioned separating mine, so to suggest that getting bonded rabbits used to being apart and reunited might help ease some of the stress of going to the vet in the first place. Being stressed (be it from a trip, or from pain) causes hormone excretions that  rabbits, like dogs, might pick up on.

[peepi&warri]

I haven’t been taking both when only one needs to be seen. In the case of my two, I don’t think keeping them together helps to prevent problems once back home. I’ve made 2 vet trips recently, once with only Peepi and once with both. Both times, Peepi was chasing Warri around for several days after. Peepi is the dominant one though, so maybe taking the dominant bun alone will cause less problems than taking the submissive one alone.

[Monkeybun]

Now that I’m thinking on it, I think maybe its only for the big things, like surgeries perhaps, that I’d say take both or all.. the surgeries and meds given may make them smell like a whole new bun. A short trip likely wouldn’t be that bad.

[Balefulregards]

Its funny that you ask this now, as I just got home from a vet trip with both in the carrier.

More or less, my vet did the exam on Jackson as he cuddled next to Coco. The only time she picked him up to move him was when she weighed him and did the teeth check, other wise, she was able to do a full exam on him with Coco by his side.

Coco was remarkably calm through the whole experience, even looking like she was asleep under his chin at one point in the ride to the Vet.

I didn’t even think twice about scooting them both into the carrier for the visit, and the Vet didn’t seem to act as if it was unusual to see both in the carrier.

I suppose – too – that the shared experience reassures them both, simultaneously? Hmm. Not sure. I will watch them tonight.

[Beka27]

As I understand it, bonds breaking is a risk with newer pairs, more than buns who’ve been “married” for years and years… Since my pair has been bonded, they’ve only been to the vet for general check-ups and nail trims. For check-ups, I’d never think twice about taking both. They comfort each other in the car and at the vet. I think for the stress-relief reason alone, it’s a good idea to take both. At check-ups, I also have both buns’ nails trimmed and both get weighed. Being handled by the vet tech and/or a difference in weight might catch something that you had not previously noticed. If it were for a bigger thing like a surgery, I might not take both, but I know people have had both buns at the vet the whole day that one had an operation.

It is not any harder to take two buns than one. Would you be having these concerns if you only had a pair? Is it just that there is a trio that you’re wondering if it’s necessary to take all three? I guess it could get cumbersome if you needed a really big carrier.

[Karla]

I was actually more up for a discussion of some kind or hearing people’s opinions just in order to learn more about rabbits. It wasn’t as such to find out how many I should bring to the vet today, but of course the fact I have to bring Jack to the vet did of course made me think about the dynamics behind vet visit and breaking a bond and started my thinking.

I would like to hear people’s experiences though. I had actually decided to only bring Jack in today, and then able to post Molly’s reactions to test my theory, but we have been able to borrow a car, so I will bring all three instead. So for my part I cannot contribute with any interesting observations in relations to vet visits – for now at least.

Cats are very different from rabbits, but some claim that they are group animals as well, so in that perspective I like to share that my parents had two cats that were always together. They brought them in the same carrier to the vet to have them neutered and they were so stressed about the car ride, the vet and all, that when they came home again later that day, they have been aggressive to each other since then. So the stressful experience actually broke the bond. Again, cats are completely different species and I know most people argue that they are solitary animals. Just wanted to share – although not having an interesting point

[RabbitPam]

I am not speaking from personal experience, and I know that’s what you prefer, but this brought to mind some questions about what breaks the bond. We’re assuming it’s the smell, but since most of bunny make up is based on being prey animals, I am wondering if it could be rooted in an association that says – he smells different. A big animal handled him, but he got away. Now that big animal I smell might be close by. Fight or flight. –

Also, a sick animal, which is evident after treatment, is often helped and cared for by a partner. But so many animal species abandon the sick because it endangers the rest of the pack that I wonder if bunnies hide their illness so they won’t be abandoned, or if they take themselves away from the others if they are going to die. So it may be an inborn preservation reaction.

And if a bunny comes back smelling like it’s from a strange warren, fighting or chasing might be a way of protecting food from an encroaching new warren of bunnies.

Just speculating.

[Karla]

I love theoretical inputs, but no one commented specifically on my three points, which are purely theoretical, and then I thought it would be just as interesting to hear personal experiences.

I think your speculation is quite good. In fact, just to stick with Lockley (because I just finished it), he noticed that when the rabbits died, he didn’t always find their bodies (could have been taken by a predator, but it could also support your theory about going somewhere else to die). The fact that the other rabbits might react to a returning rabbit because they get nervous about a prey nearby supports my observation that Molly was not hostile, but seemed nervous when Jack returned from surgery. But it went on for almost a wek, which is an unnatural long period to be nervous in though. But then again, he was in pain during that whole period, which would cause turmoil in an actual warren, I would think.

But if they react to the smell, don’t you think that if you kept the bunny in a carrier with towels should give back the bunny its original scent? If we say it is merely a matter of a check-up and does not involve surgery.  So when people experience problems, that is strange, I think. But I don’t know if those who have experienced a bond breaking are dealing with bunnies who have not been bonded for more than a month or so? That might be an issue as well as Beka suggests.

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Some of you suggests that when one bunny is in for a vet visit, you should always bring the bonded pair/trio/foursome to avoid breaking the bond. The theory is that the bunny will pick up a new scent at the vet and will thus be at risk of not being welcomed by the bunnies at home. But if the bunny is only at the vet for 10 min, then that is a very short period for picking up a completely new and unrecognisable scent. Can a rabbit really be unrecognisable after just 10 min. somewhere else?
Not according to the studies of R.M Lockley* if I remember correctly.

That’s what I’ve heard too but not why I take them together. It’s a scary place and it’s comforting to be with your buddy if your scared.

I have heard of bonds breaking due to seperation (that occurs when one goes to the vet) but I have ALSO heard of bonds breaking because of taking them to the vet together for a spay(bonded pair of cats, one gets spayed, wakes up in extreme pain obviously and see’s their friend-associates pain with friend and they coudl never be toghether again).

I think it’s a toss up in terms of bond, but I do always take them together so it’s not as stressful.

If a bunny does in fact pick up a new scent very quickly (10 min.), then that problem should be easily solved by keeping the bunny in a carrier with a towel – both having the regular scent from home – on the way home/for as long as it spent at the vet’s. During the ride home, the bunny should thus get its old scent back.

I think what’s often meant by ‘new scent’ is that the animal was ‘fixed’ (spay/neutered animals smell differently then they did before the operation) but I’m not entirely sure that’s what is meant by the ‘new scent’.

Let’s say it is not the smell in the room, but it is the vet touching the bunny that causes the different scent. Then every time a visitor to our home pets one of our bunnies, there should be a risk of breaking the bond. I recall that R.M Lockley* would handle his wild rabbits and examine them and them put them back in their warren without problems.

I agree with you on this one-doubly so that my dog can come in and lick Rupert or Noot (his favorites) and their partners (Kahlua and Chuck respectively) do not reject them. I can even take one out of the bunny room to meet a guest and be held and visit, and they go back in with no trouble.
That being said my bonding experiences were neither typical nor difficult. I would likely be more careful if I’d had a difficult bonding situation or precarious bonds. Kokanee-Kahlua, Chuck-Noot were both instabonds and Rupert-Kahlua took little time or work. I think it just depends.

[Sarita]

Karla I do have to wonder if the nature of wild rabbits is quite different from domestic rabbits. I also have to wonder about domestic rabbits in many different environments and imagine that the environments (lab/breeding facility/home/hutch) can be so very, very different so you will see different responses even in those environments.

Even though our rabbits are descendants of wild rabbits, genetically now they are totally different and cannot breed together.

I have to imagine that our domestic rabbits are not going to react the same way as their wild cousins in many situation. After all in the wild it is a matter of survival always and that’s just not the case (usually) for our domesticated pet rabbits – I cannot speak of lab or rabbits bred for meat or fur and how they act in those circumstances. I imagine a domestic rabbit in a lab is in an extremely controlled environment and is not handled in the same way as our pet rabbits. The same is true for those poor rabbits bred for other purposes as well.

[BinkyBunny]

 

To summarize your questions #1 & 2 – Can a rabbit really be unrecognisable after just 10 min. …… even if the bunny does smell different, shouldn’t the carrier and towel from “home” help the bunny get his scent back? 

My Answer:  I have had experiences where one bunny will attack the other after coming back  from the vet, but I have also had experienced times where nothing happened, and all was fine. Both times the towel from home was in the carrier.  So go figure…??   I think it depends on the bunny, how they react to stress, whats scents were transferred to the bunny, and if the bunny is dominant or passive bunny.  I think there are alot of dynamics at play that can create something very individual and not typical.  I have a soft heart for bunnies in need, and so I have had to do the vet trips many many many times.

Your question #3 – Part 1:  Let’s say it is not the smell in the room, but it is the vet touching the bunny that causes the different scent. Then every time a visitor to our home pets one of our bunnies, there should be a risk of breaking the bond. 

My Answer: I think the issue is that the vet is handling a bunch of other animals.  Even though vets wash their hands, their clothes and sleeves may still transfer this scent.  For example, on Jack’s last visit, I brought Viv with for “comfort”, but when the vet came in and handled Jack, Viv attacked Jack right there. I separated them for a minute.  The vet went back to wash her hands again, and during that time I petted Jack and Vivian, and tried to mix scents asap. Now whether that prevented it from progressing, or that VIv was somehow able to establish that the scent was coming from the Vet after that, and not Jack, or the car ride home helped them deal with any new confict, I do not know.

But let’s just say it’s the “human”  vet scent.  When we have visitors in our home, it’s in our bunnies territory. So our rabbits may be able to distinguish the “intruder” from the their buddy.  My rabbits are not fond of new people, but they can be bribed with treats and it does take some time for them to trust, but with their focus being on the new human still being separate from their bunny buddy.

Your question #3 – Part 2  “I recall that R.M Lockley* would handle his wild rabbits and examine them and them put them back in their warren without problems.”

I wish he would come counsel some of our domestic bunnies!  LOL .  I really have no answer for that except just to go by what I have experienced,  what some of my bunny friends have experienced, and by what people have told me or posted about before.

I can only theorize that MAYBE domestic bunnies, which are bred in a way to be “human friendly”, at least much more so than wild rabbits are, may see the scent as a rival instead of just some foreign or predator scent.  ?????   Just a guess.

All I can tell you is for whatever reason, one of these three things happen with my bunnies:

• Nasty fight (rare, but has happened)
• Re-establishing territory and dominance which is more territory marking and/or mounting. (This is what normally happens in my experience)  Now this could be due to just coming back into their territory after being away, but the difference I have found is that when they have the stress ride home they will still do  more marking, but will display less dominance type behaviors with each other.  So it could be due to the fact that they are finding comfort/bonding through stress.
• Some intense sniffing like saying ”Who are you….oh, right…you are you, but….you smell funky…where have you been?!!

For me regardless if I am having to bring a bunny home from surgery or just a quick check-up I bring the companion bunny – it’s not a big deal.  Fighting and the possibility of having to go though a rebond is a big deal and so say this would only happen about 10% of the time.  I want nothing to do with that 10%.

 

NOTE:  For me, I have never been advised to have the companion bunny be there in post-surgery care at the vets (it’s just for the car ride there, during an examination and take on the car ride back.)  I have been told that the the reason that many vets will not allow the companion to be with their buddy overnight  or in post surgery is that that can cause fighting because the healthy rabbit’s instincts may kick in to get the “unhealthy/recovering” rabbit away, (as their instincts are telling them that puts them in danger).

So I have never had a rabbit companion be in with a rabbit during post-surgery or overnight care. 

ETA:  I forgot to add another point.  When I was helping more in rescue work directly and would come home smelling like other bunnies –if I didn’t shower first, I would not only get attacked,but it would make my bunnies want to confirm “who’s boss”.  So it could be that  sometimes it’s not about the rabbit thinking the other  rabbit  is unrecognizable, but the “new” scent may trigger a territory and dominance response – which would be to let any “visitors” know that this is their place and they are the boss.   It definitely is triggered more by other “bunny” scents than it is by other animal scents.

I  don’t know why R.M Lockley didn’t see these types of responses in his studies with wild rabbits.  What Sarita brought up may hold the key to part of it.             ????? 

Interesting conversation though!

[Karla]

Interesting points. I like all these inputs.

BB: you added the point about you coming home smelling of other bunnies triggering a “who’s boss” situation. I know I am moving towards another topic, but I have wondered again and again why on earth bunnies react with poop war when a new bunny is introduced – especially since the poop war can go on for months after the bond has been established and they groom each other constantly. I came to my own conclusion that perhaps it has nothing to do with the relationship between the two bunnies as such, because then it should only be while the bonding process is going on. But a new bunny may trigger an innate instinct, which is otherwise latent in our pet bunnies. And so for a while they react as a wild rabbit would? Just an assumption.

Sarita: I do agree with you that wild rabbits and pet bunnies may act very differently. I don’t remember who did this research, but I think it was an Australian who placed tame rabbits in an area with wild rabbits and then observed them. Apparently, tame rabbits are not as aggressive and territorial as wild rabbits. I guess it is the same discussion as dog vs wolf. Can you or can you not apply the behaviour of the wild ancestor to our pets? I would think you could, but I have to admit I don’t have anything to back me up on it.

[Beka27]

Oh, okay Karla! I thought you were specifically asking for you. But I love theoretical threads! (These make great threads for the FAQ section!) Everyone has had great insight! It’s one of those things that we won’t know for sure what triggers some bunnies and not others.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Karla on 02/24/2010 11:54 PM

I have wondered again and again why on earth bunnies react with poop war when a new bunny is introduced – especially since the poop war can go on for months after the bond has been established and they groom each other constantly. I came to my own conclusion that perhaps it has nothing to do with the relationship between the two bunnies as such, because then it should only be while the bonding process is going on. 

Poowars aren’t only a means to express hostility.  They can be used to claim a space as well as to maintain a hierarchy within a herd. If you give a rabbit a large space, for example, he may mark off a particular area, to declare it his own. He may do this knowing that he cannot be in all favorite spots at the same time to show they’re his so leaving the droppings works as a placeholder.

I think there are some basic concepts that hold true for many species, including humans. Let’s say you have a nice new dresser, like the one I recently got. If I don’t put some of my distinct belongings on top of it, someone in my house might take over that nice new space.

Just because two or more rabbits have bonded and are grooming each other is not synonymous with never competing again for space or resources.

[Monkeybun]

*runs to put sockbunnies on every surface of the apartment*

Drat… not enough sockbunnies… must get more >.>

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Just because two or more rabbits have bonded and are grooming each other is not synonymous with never competing again for space or resources.

Well put

[Moonlight_Wolf]

My theory:

Take bunny away from his/her pal for a while —-> other bunny gets angry when he/she comes back and says, “Why did you leave me alone for so long? I could neither see nor smell you for over an hour and now you come back smelling like someone else! Who do you think you are!!!” *attack*

[Author]

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