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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A mysterious symptoms – advice?

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    • bradforde
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        Hi all, I don’t post on here too often, but I’m a longtime lurker and I’d love to hear your thoughts on my situation:

        Watson is my 6 1/2 year old chinchilla/new zealand mix. he is normally a great eater, but lately has been off and on about his pellets. he is still eating hay and cardboard, poop is still normal. He has had a runny eye about one day a week, but everytime I take him to the vet, the eye seems to dry up overnight and there’s not much to look at. He is kind of crappy-feeling in the morning, but will usually eat better at nighttime. i am just so stumped as to what’s going on with him. We have a vet appt. this afternoon and would love some suggestions as to what to suggest that the vet look out for ( am in arkansas, not to many rabbit -saavy vets around here…). i am hoping for a molar spur, but i am really worried about a tumor or something ; (

        thanks,

        erin


      • bradforde
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          well, i just read another forum post and it sounds like molar spurs are the most obvious culprit – if anyone has other advice for other possibilities, please let me know.

          also, are molar spurs something that have to be trimmed regularly, or is it a one-time thing? I am worried that with his age, frequent anatheisa would be risky.


        • Sarita
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            Hi, molar spurs MAY have to be trimmed regularly – if your vet discovers this is what it may be then I would recommend you do bloodwork if he will have to have them trimmed on a regular basis to see what the bloodwork says.


          • bradforde
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              thanks sarita, hoping this will be a one-time thing, but i’ll be prepared if it’s not : (


            • Sarita
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                I also wonder if it’s a tooth root problem – my first rabbit’s roots grew high up into his nostril/eye area – I’m sure there is a more scientific term for this as well. He also had molar spur problems but the tearing eye was caused more by the tooth root problems.

                Do let us know what your vet says.


              • bradforde
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                  well, it wasn’t molar spurs afterall – it’s a hairball. and it’s in a very bad spot, right at the end of the stomach and before the pylori (spelling?). anyway, the vet said that it could lodge there and basically kill him. and i’m hesitant to go for surgery, because i have heard the outcome of hairball surgery is rarely good.

                  sooooo, i have instructions to give him lots of hay/veggies (which he is still eating), pineapple, fluids, reglan, and petromalt for a week, then if it’s not broken up, he needs surgery. not good news : (


                • bradforde
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                    oh, and if i wait until he really NEEDS the surgery, his chance of surviving it would be very low because of dehydration, stress, etc. sigh.


                  • jerseygirl
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                      If you are going to use petromalt, please get lots of fluid into Watson first. How did your vet come to this conclusion? X-rays, ultra sound or just palpatating the stomach? I’m a little concerned they used the term “hairball” it’s a bit of a myth that rabbits get hairballs. The can get a slowdown of the gut so hair and other matter can not move through, become a hard impacted mass. This is why it is important to get fluid in to rehydrate the matter. Petromalt can coat the matter and cause it to become impermeable to fluids.

                      Was the leaky eye and teeth investigated further?  If he’s experiencing dental issue, this in fact could cause discomfort >> lack of eating>>slow down of GI tract>>impaction of fecal matter and hair. 


                    • Sarita
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                        Hmmm…that is odd because I really don’t see much correlation between these 2 things at all.

                        I don’t agree with the petromalt either – that has nothing to do with getting the gut going and that is what a “hairball” is a gut slowdown. The fluid and reglan those are good. And lots of veggies and hay.

                        Here is my experience with a blockage – Pepe went 2 weeks without eating – we did fluids, reglan, and pain meds – basically I kept him at the vet for a week so they could be aggressive with fluids and pain meds and finally finally his gut started up again. My vet said petromalt in this case (or any) is absolutely not recommended, you need to get the mass rehydrated so it can move through the gut. We did threaten Pepe with surgery too but luckily he started eating. Also recommend that you get him moving.

                        And I have to tell you know that Pepe has dental issues so I think perhaps the blockage was partly a result of the dental problems.


                      • bradforde
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                          well, he put a scope into his mouth and showed me his teeth (of course i am no expert). after noting that his teeth were fine, he told me it was probably a hairball, which i told him was ridiculous (my bunnies are on a very limited oxbow BB diet with tons of veg/hay) and that i would like to get an xray to see if he didn’t have some tooth root elongation. anyway, got the xray and there was the hairball (or something white, round ball) in his belly. and his teeth looked normal.

                          i agree about the petromalt – i haven’t given him that yet as i don’t want to make this mass waterproof for sure…but i am thinking about get some lactulose instead. anyone have experience with that?

                          he is eating like normal today (pellets, even) but i am still bombarding him with pineapple, veggies, and timothy. i will start the reglan tomorrow and continue with this routine for one week, then we go back for another xray.

                          any other advice is greatly appreciated!


                        • bradforde
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                            oh, and he did look at the eye, but like i said, it’s only weepy occasionally, not all the time (maybe once a week?) and it wasn’t weepy yesterday so i think it just looked like i was overreacting. but i am still going to keep an eye on it… he did look over his gums and inside his cheeks and there wasn’t any damage from any tooth problems. but i am not going to forget about the symtoms – if he starts to drool even a drop, we are back up there in a flash.

                            and he did palpate the stomach but didn’t feel anything. that was explained when we saw the xray and the location of the “hairball.” this is going to be a long week…


                          • Sarita
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                              I agree about continuing the reglan even after he starts eating and pooping again. As for the lactulose I would say no to that. I think just keep him on the basics recommended for rabbits like you are.

                              I reread your initial post and it’s interesting that he was exhibiting any signs of decreased appetite and he had not stopped pooping too other than the “crappy” feeling in the morning.

                              Keep us updated.

                              Does your vet have alot of experience with rabbits?


                            • bradforde
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                                yeah, he’s pretty good. i live in Arkansas, so that makes it a bit harder to find good vets. there are basically two. i run a rabbit rescue here and take all of our rescues to this guy – haven’t lost one yet. BUT as for hairball surgery, he said he has lost 3 afterwards. but they were all in bad shape before the surgery, which is why he recommended that i make a decision before it’s critical.

                                as for the pellet-eating, he said that it was due to him craving roughage because of the hairball. kind of like a dog eating grass or something.

                                right now, he’s a totally normal bun – eating, drinking, playing, etc. i doubt that the treatment would work that fast, but as long as he’s not getting any worse, i’m going to hope that he’s getting better : ) will keep you guys updated.


                              • jerseygirl
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                                  haha! Perhaps just that trip to the vet put him right regardless of receiving treatment. He sounds like he’s in good care with you. Perhaps the eye is due to duct becoming blocked on occasion, so it doesn’t drain? Does his friend (assuming that is them in your avatar) groom his eye for him?
                                  You’ll have to post about your rescue sometime – when you have him in good health again.  (((Watson)))


                                • bradforde
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                                    thanks jersey! honestly i am completely stumped by Watson’s behavior. he’s totally himself now and really, really would like his pellets. he is screaming at me about them, but i’m hesitant to give him any in case they just add to the gunk that’s already in the “hairball.” ugh. his poops are totally normal and a normal amount. if i didn’t know better, i would tell you that there’s not a dang thing wrong with him.

                                    **oh, and rescuing rabbits in Arkansas is a real challenge. lot of backward thinking here in the south, and most people can’t understand why you don’t just feed the homeless rabbits to a person who is hungry and kill two birds with one stone. a lot of shelters will let rabbits go to the dinner table. that’s hard to get your mind around sometimes, but that’s part of living down here, i guess! i just do what i can and we can only handle about 15 rabbits at a time, so that’s what we do!**


                                  • Beka27
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                                      Thank you so much for the work you’re doing rescuing rabbits! Living in Ohio I encounter a good amount of criticism for my love o’ buns, I can only imagine how much more difficult attitudes must be where you are! Keep up the good work.

                                      I would just keep with what you’re doing: high fiber, more exercise, lots of hydration. Continue to feel better Watson!


                                    • bradforde
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                                        thanks beka : ) it’s not easy, but somebody has to do it!

                                        watson got tired of the pineapple pretty much on day two. i purchased the bromelain/papain enzyme supplments and am feeding him a pinch of that instead, which he will easily eat on a banana. tomorrow, i’ll start him on the reglan and i’m thinking about taking him in for some sub-Q fluids. i am supposed to be force-feeding him water, but so far i haven’t had much luck with that. both bunns seem to understand how to close off their throats and just spit out whatevers in their mouth as soon as you move!


                                      • BinkyBunny
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                                          So stumped. I know that normally hairballs are not a cause and symptom all on their own. Usually the slow down of the gi tract (which can cause a hairball) is due to some other underlying cause. UNLESS, he got into something – chewed up something that is very difficult to digest. Some bunnies will eat anything! Then with the slow-down, he stopped eating as much and whala – you have a mysterious problem.

                                          gi stasis still wouldn’t explain the eyes.

                                          Is he pooping okay though now? Maybe whatever it was is passing through.


                                        • bradforde
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                                            poops are great, but they have been this whole time. really good size and amount, nothing unusual there.

                                            he is prone to GI stasis and normally goes into it about twice a year? he is also a crazy eater, though – he will literally eat anything that is rubber, leather, or wood. last week, he got a piece of dog food and wasn’t feeling great in the morning. i think that’s where this all started, but i can’t be certain.

                                            the eye, i guess it’s an allergy or something. only seems to happen when it’s warm, but his mate, Loki (black one in my avatar) keeps it clean so i suppose it’s not a big issue?

                                            i feel so bad for him, though – he really, really wants to eat cardboard and pellets, but the vet said not to let him have either one : ( he is so angry with me!


                                          • Basic User Name changed!
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                                              oops!  This is BINKYBUNNY in Basic User Mode- it’s how I test out how regular members view the board after I’ve made some admin changes.  I have a bunch of extra options and the screen looks different in my BB or admin mode. Sorry for any confusion!

                                              Anyway……My bunny Rucy, had a constant runny eye – due to ongoing teeth issues, but she also had blocked tear duct from scar tissue. Her mate, Jack, kept it clean, so it never became a problem.

                                              I could see where eating dog food could cause a problem – if it was a one time thing, and it was just a little bit, then it won’t necessarily be the cause, (but could be), but if he gets into it on a regular basis, then that will cause health problems. The high protein is not good at all either, so you will need to be sure to stop him from doing that.

                                              Also, if he is one to get into and eat everything, rubber, leather, whatever, that that could be what your vet was seeing. Some of those things just can’t easily be digested. Since his appetite has decreased, it’s only a matter of time where the other end will slow down too.

                                              Just do your best to keep him the gobble monster out of trouble from this point on. And hopefully whatever he has digested will pass soon, but keep an eye on him. Also did you tell the vet about the dog food incident?

                                              test basic user's signature!


                                            • bradforde
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                                                no, it’s not a regular thing – just one piece of dog food one time. i try and keep a very close eye on him because he has always been prone to stasis. that’s part of the reason that i was so hesitant to believe in a hairball – his appetite is really good and he continues to feel just fine otherwise- he is doing binkies right now. i’m just mystified. everything i’ve always read about hairballs has kind of gone out the window at this point…

                                                but yes, i did tell the vet and he wasn’t worried about it, but i know better than to believe everything a vet tells me at this point! he was all about the laxatone and petromalt, and i know now that was a bad suggestion. geez….

                                                so far, he has been eating nothing but greens, greens, greens, hay, and pineapple, although i have switched to the powdered enzyme to avoid too much sugar from the fresh stuff.

                                                still watching his litterbox and hoping for a hairball in there!


                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                  Maybe a 2nd x-ray after a week? You described the blockage as round white ball. So it was very opaque? I don’t actually know how an impacted mass of gut content would appear in an x-ray. If another x-ray showed this again in the same place, maybe it is something else. 

                                                  As it is where the stomach and intestine meet, perhaps it blocks that opening from time to time, bringing on the stasis episodes. I have read about the muscle at this junction that can thicken and cause complications. I’m am just speculating! Hopefully he’ll just pass whatever it is.
                                                  Keep us posted.

                                                  BB – so many aliases!


                                                • bradforde
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                                                    yep- we have a second appointment for an xray on wednesday. i don’t know what a hairball looks like on an xray either – it was a white circle surrounded by mottled stuff in the rest of the stomach (which he said is normal – food and gas pockets). i asked him if it could be a tumor, but he said it wasn’t dense enough.

                                                    my concerns about this make me think i should go back to the super-strict pellet diet (they were only getting about 1/3 of a cup a day for the last 6 months or so, but i used to have them on 2 tbl. per day and i think i might go back to this to prevent this problem in the future). Watson is a very fit bunny, but Loki is kind of a tub tub naturally, so this probably wouldn’t hurt either of them!

                                                    and thanks for the thoughts – i’m going to mention it to the vet when we go back and hopefully get our good news : )


                                                  • Sarita
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                                                      I would discuss the pellet issue with the vet. Some vets will recommend to stop giving pellets with rabbits who have continuous gastric problems. Do keep us updated.


                                                    • BinkyBunny
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                                                        Jersey – That’s right – just call me Binky…Binky Bunny – DoubleOBunny! I will either be HOST, ADMIN, Basic User or ME. Though Steve can be the first three too.. so you just never know. It’s all very binkysterious!

                                                        bradforde – I am very curious to find out what this is too. Hopefully the xrays will show it’s cleared up or at least breaking down.


                                                      • bradforde
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                                                          thanks guys, i appreciate the support – it has definitely calmed me down alot, having your input. after our visit on wed., i walked out of the vet thinking he wasn’t going to be with us much longer (I have always been told that hairball surgery is basically a death sentence), but now i am feeling alot more hopeful.

                                                          question, though – if he passes the hairball, would i be able to tell – would it be a big lump of hair in the litterbox or something? i’m already tracking his poops, so i’m looking in his boxes fairly often anyway. since he is feeling great, his attitude wouldn’t be much of an indicator…


                                                        • jerseygirl
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                                                            Do you know – I don’t think it would. Just guessing of course! If the mass is breaking down I assume that it travels thru the intenstine where it gets shaped into those lovely round balls – hehe. So the hair etc may all be incorporated into poop as normal (???)


                                                          • BinkyBunny
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                                                              Though my own bunnies haven’t gone through this (that I know of), some of the other members who have, have said they saw a big messy clump of poo goo and fur. ech.


                                                            • bradforde
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                                                                eww?

                                                                well, nothing exciting yet. we are going back to the vet’s tomorrow for more xrays and i will keep you up to date! thinking about getting a second opinion if he needs surgery. i am really scared of hairball surgery…


                                                              • BinkyBunny
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                                                                  A 2nd opinion, especially in this case, would definitely be a good idea. I sure hope that whateverit is, the xrays, show it is cleared! Keep us updated.


                                                                • bradforde
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                                                                    well, good news – the vet said the hairball is about 80% smaller, so we just need to stick with the diet for a couple more days and he should be hairball free!

                                                                    diet has been:

                                                                    pretty much unlimited greens with a LOT of kale

                                                                    unlimited hay (bermuda, timothy, and “botantical mix” from Oxboy)

                                                                    pineapple enzymes – powdered – twice per day (about 30 mg. of each bromelaid and papain enzymes)

                                                                    reglan – once per day

                                                                    treat – watermelon to keep his fluids  and electrolytes up (I was supposed to be force-feeding him water, but i didn’t have the heart to do that…)


                                                                  • jerseygirl
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                                                                      Oh that’s great! The diet sounded great pre-hairball but perhaps he needs extra care. Glad it’s getting resolved and you’re not facing surgery.


                                                                    • bradforde
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                                                                        I’ll probably add in 1 tbl. pellets per day and cut out the reglan, but probably leave the rest the same to prevent this from happening in the future – thanks everyone for the support!


                                                                      • Sarita
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                                                                          If it were me, I would continue the reglan at least for a week. Remember that this is the result of a slowdown of the GI tract and the reglan is a motility drug. Is your reglan the oral type?


                                                                        • skunklionshow
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                                                                            I found this article on HRS Chicago.

                                                                            http://www.hrschicago.org/hairballfr.html

                                                                            It talks about the issue being gut motility as the problem, not the hairball.  I thought that was interesting….Dana K in her Stasis article does address the petromalt issue as well as hairballs, though briefly.

                                                                            W/ CoCo’s prolapsed intestine, my vet explained that intestinal difficulties seldom come out well via surgery.  Her basic explanation was that the rabbit intestinal track is designed to always move, when it doesn’t move it sends toxins to the blood system, these toxins move to the organs and it becomes a difficult to tx cycle.  So often by the time we start to tx problems this process has likely started or is far enough along that has already caused damage to other body parts that cannot be tx’d.  I hope I explained that right. 


                                                                          • bradforde
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                                                                              exactly – that is the same thing that i have read, skunk. for now, watson is doing great, but i am going to make sure that i keep his veggies doubled, his pellets halved, and his pineapple enzymes coming every day. other than that, not sure what else i can do to prevent stasis in the future (he has always been prone to it, but usually a dose of reglan takes care of it very quickly). might think about adding petromalt to his diet, too, although feeding a bunny petroleum just seems so wrong…

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                                                                          Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A mysterious symptoms – advice?