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Forum BONDING A friend for Digby

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    • Colin
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        I just made an appointment to have Digby meet some eligible bachelorettes on Sunday

        Does anyone have any advice for these first meetings? We’re bringing him to a bunny foster home (part of the House Rabbit Network) here in Massachusetts, which has 5 females.


      • jerseygirl
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          Wonderful! Goodluck! I wish your webcam coverage extended to the foster home!


        • Kokaneeandkahlua
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            Try to do it somewhere neutral and since he’s going for a car ride first he may be a bit off, but try to watch his behavior and thiers as closely as possible and really read into it.


          • Beka27
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              “The Bunny Bachelor” lol. good luck. have you read any bonding articles? they sum up very well what you want to look for. remember that most of the time it is not love at first sight, but if you have “tolerate at first sight” that is usually good enough. and the dynamic can and probably will change once you get home to his turf. you might not be able to date all the ladies the same day b/c if he gets upset with one or two, that can color his opinions of the others. it’s best to actually go back a couple times and do repeat dates to see if the feelings are real or if it was just a one-time thing that they were getting along.


            • Colin
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                We just got back from the foster home, and Digby has a new little friend!  A grey dwarf bunny named Yoshi was very friendly to him, and started grooming Digby right away!

                We tried a couple other rabbits first.  There was Rosie, a dark grey female with a white nose, who is very friendly with humans, but was a bit too aggressive for poor Digby. As soon as she got a bite of his fur (but fortunately no real damage), we knew the date was over.

                Next was Truffle, a beautifule black bunny with a brown trim (looked like a Britannia Petite, but was almost twice the size). They did fairly well together, and she did groom Digby a little once or twice. Unfortunately I think he was still a little gunshy from his encounter with Rosie.

                After that, we introduced him to the funniest Angora, who looked almost like a Koala with big ears. They were fine together, but no sparks.

                Finally, we brought in Yoshi, who went right up to Digby and licked his ears. After a couple minutes, Digby came out of his shell a little, and after a bit of mutual sniffing, tried to mount Yoshi to let him know who was the boss. They ate a little snack together, did some more grooming, and we decided to give it a shot.

                We had an uneventful car ride home with the two of them snuggled together in one carrier. We did a little bonding session in the bathroom (while I scrambled to finish setting up the second cage). Now the two of them are settling into their new homes. Digby is in the new cage tonight, and Yoshi’s in his old cage. I’m planning on switching them each day.

                I’ll try to get some pictures of Yoshi soon – wish them both luck!

                 

                Huge thanks to Suzanne from the House Rabbit Network – she was very helpful and knowledgable. She even weighed Digby (he’s 6lbs – and she thinks he might still be growing!)  She also gave us some tips for picking him up. We had been having trouble with that, but today I had him scooped up, on his back in my arms, and he barely even fidgeted.

                 


              • Colin
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                  I love these bunnies. I can’t believe how well the bonding is going!

                  They had another session on the bathroom floor this morning. After they sniffed each other a little, I put some greens on the floor for them to share. Digby, being the piggy little bun he is, started chowing down right away. Yoshi was a little hesitant, but he did eat a couple bites. Amazingly though, Digby didn’t even eat everything before he started sniffing Yoshi again. He tried mounting Yoshi a couple times (very gently), but I quickly brushed him off. The thing that really got to me was that Digby was honking every time Yoshi was nearby.

                  This went on for about half an hour. Sometimes Digby would chase Yoshi a little, and when he realized I wouldn’t let him mount Yoshi, he would groom Yoshi’s back a little. I got the two of them lying side by side, and gave them some nose rubs. Then, Digby completely flopped over next to Yoshi – I was so happy! When Yoshi realized that Digby was finally relaxing, he started grooming Digby’s ears. He dove right in there (which was hilarious – Yoshi’s entire face fits in Digby’s ear). Unfortunately I think Digby might be a little ticklish in there, as he started flipping his ears after a couple seconds.

                  I can’t wait until Yoshi feels a little more at home – he’s so submissive around Digby. I’m giving him some solo exercise time right now, and I’ve seen several binkies, which is great.


                • Beka27
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                    it’s okay to allow mounting as long as it’s done in the right direction (no mounting the face, that can be dangerous!), it does not go on for longer than about 20-30 seconds, and the bunny being humped is not upset by it. mounting is a way that they determine dominance so it is a natural part of the bonding process for some buns.


                  • Colin
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                      Good to know, thanks Beka. There was a little face mounting, but I’ll be leave them alone for a bit otherwise.


                    • Colin
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                        Well, wouldn’t you know it… we did another bonding session tonight and Yoshi mounted Digby this time. Is it a problem if they both mount each other – will they be competing for dominance?

                        The session still went really well – they both seemed to be grooming each other equally.


                      • Colin
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                          I think I made a rookie mistake this morning – things were going so well with Digby and Yoshi that I decided to try putting them both in their “exercise room” together. I did put a barrier up so it was about one third its normal size (about 6×8 ft).  It wasn’t terrible, but there was a lot more chasing and mounting (from both, although poor little Yoshi wasn’t very sucessful), with much less grooming.

                          So tonight, we put them in the bathroom again, and walled off the area behind the toilet so they wouldn’t run and chase and hide back there. They were great – even better than last night. They both groomed each other, although Yoshi did most of it.  We put some greens on the floor for them, and they both chowed down this time – I think Yoshi is becoming much more comfortable around Digby. They both did a little self grooming after the meal, and then snuggled up next to each other. I gave them some nose rubs, and the both seemed incredibly content.

                          We now have their cages next to each other – they used to be about 5 feet away. Yoshi currently looks like he’s teaching Digby about the joys of ripping up paper


                        • Beka27
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                            it sounds like it’s going good so far. yes, just go slowly… it’s easy to get anxious and wanna “see how they do” but that can actually reverse progress you’ve already made. it sounds tho like there was no harm done. back in the neutral space they were quite happy!

                            have you been switching cages everyday? this is where you leave everything as is and only the bunny moves cages. it’s very important for getting them used to each other’s scent and using the other’s things.


                          • Colin
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                              Yeah, we’ve been switching the cages each day since Yoshi came home, and last night we put the cages next to each other.

                              We had another bonding session in the bathroom this morning that went very well. Digby is more successful at mounting because of the size difference, but they both try every now and then.


                            • Colin
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                                Today was a big day for our buns – starting with a trip to the vet. They both did very well in the carrier together, and also when I put them in the bathroom after we got home.

                                Tonight, we set up an xpen in the living room and had the buns in there for about 3 hours. Digby mounted Yoshi near the begining of the session, which Yoshi usually tolerates. They were doing very well until the end – plenty of grooming and snuggling. They also shared a litter box for the first time. However, at the end Yoshi became determined to mount Digby. He always tries to mount Digby from the side since he’s smaller – which results in the two of them spinning around in a circle as Digby turns around to see what’s going on.

                                I placed them next to each other and gave them some nose rubs, but a couple minutes later they started again, so I repeated the nose rubs and put them in their cages. I did notice a couple small tufts of fur on the ground, which I think are from Yoshi trying to keep Digby in place.

                                Until now I’ve been giving Digby some solo exercise time before the sessions since he’s usually a little pushier and more active (Yoshi has his solo exercise time afterwards). I think I’m going to have to give them both exercise time before the sessions though.


                              • Beka27
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                                  you might try doing a stress activity before the bonding if that worked for you. even if it’s just a couple minutes on the washing machine. 3 hours might be a bit long for this stage. maybe cap it off at an hour so they don’t have enough time to get aggressive. just enough time to eat and snuggle a little bit and chill out.

                                  so the xpen situation is working out well tho?


                                • Beka27
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                                    also… you have a webcam? have you thought about doing a short “bonding show”, maybe 15 or 20 minutes… would that be possible?


                                  • Colin
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                                      Actually, I think we may have moved beyond the need for the xpen. I put the xpen in their playroom this morning, and they were doing very well for about 2 hours. They did seem a little restless – they weren’t annoying each other, but I think because they knew they were in their playroom, they wanted to be able to run around freely. I crossed my fingers and let them out, and they were great. They ran around together, did some binkies, and when they got tired they snuggled up in a corner of the room. I also let them explore both cages together when it was time for their midday nap. I let them into the playroom together again tonight, and they’re still doing really well. I definitely haven’t seen Yoshi do this many binkies before. It’s great to see them running around freely together. If they continue to do this well, I think I’m going to try having them share a cage in a couple days.

                                      I didn’t think to set up the webcam where we’ve been bonding them. It’s possible if I hook it up to my laptop. I’m not sure how useful it would be since they’re so close, but I could give it a shot. I’ll try to upload some of the videos I’ve taken with my digital camera.


                                    • MarkBun
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                                        I think that you’re ready for 24/7 housing. from the videos, I’d say they’re bonded now. Yoshi showed no aggression when Digby sniffed his behind and well, if Digby flops any harder against Yoshi, you’ll have a small, cute throw rug.


                                      • Colin
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                                          Sigh… I thought they were pretty much bonded.

                                          We had their cages next to each other and were switching them each day. They’ve been having shared exercise time for the past couple days – 2-4 hours at a time, twice a day. They were doing great – no signs of aggression, not even any humping. They were even snuggling and grooming each other every now and then.

                                          I spent a couple hours today breaking down the temporary NIC cage, cleaning everything, and building an enclosed pen around the large dog cage we have. I put Digby and Yoshi in there together, and they seemed fine for about 2 hours. Just as we were getting ready to go to bed, my girlfriend heard them scuffling. She came in and saw the 2 of them fighting in the litterbox. By the time I got there they were inside the dog cage. I separated them twice, putting them in different parts of their new home, but they seemed intent on finishing the fight.

                                          Right now, Digby is in the new space, and Yoshi is in an xpen in their exercise room. I guess tomorrow I’ll go back to stress bonding them – car/washing machine rides followed by some time in the xpen, and if they do well there, rides followed by time in the new enclosure.

                                          Any suggestions/insight would be greatly appreciated.


                                        • Colin
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                                            I think one mistake I made was only putting one litterbox in there. It’s big enough for both, and I’ve seen them use it together before, but that seems to be where the fight started. It’s also possible that they may have been munching on the same piece of hay, as I’ve also seen that, but it didn’t result in a fight last time.

                                            One thing I’m concerned about is if I leave Digby in the new enclosure overnight, he’ll claim that space as his own. Should I try putting both of them in the xpen? I can stay up pretty late to supervise them. I think tomorrow I’ll take the dog cage out of the enclosure, and create the xpen with the L-shaped divider that MarkusDark mentioned in another thread.


                                          • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                                              The xpen with the L shape is a great idea, and I think two litter boxes is a good idea too or at least a super big one they can both fit in.


                                            • Colin
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                                                It looks like this may take some time.

                                                I have the two of them in the xpen with an L-shaped divider. I tried leaving one end of the divider open, but they keep getting into scuffles. Fortunately neither of them appear to be injured, but they were going at it pretty hard, and there were several tufts of fur flying.

                                                This morning I tried the washing machine ride for the first time. They were fine in the laundry basket together, and definitely snuggled up next to each other, although there was no grooming or anything. I put them back in the xpen afterwards with the divider open and gave them a little bit of greens, but Digby was the only one who ate. A couple minutes later, they started fighting again. It looks like Yoshi is starting things by nipping Digby on the side. I separated them for a minute, but they started up again before too long.

                                                They’re still in the xpen, but the divider is connected to both sides again. It has two sides of NIC grids so they can’t nip each other through it very easily. I’ve attached a pic of the setup below.

                                                I’m really worried – I’m not sure exactly what started this feud, but they’ve never fought like this before. Should I just go back to square one, or should I try keeping them in the xpen together until they “make up”? Does anyone have experience with bonding bunnies who were doing great, and then took a serious step backwards?

                                                11017213254171.JPG


                                              • Beka27
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                                                  what are you doing when they start to fight? are you spraying with a water bottle? i think you might want to take it back a couple steps to a semi-neutral location. i wouldn’t do stress bonding just yet, i would wait and use that as a last resort. go to a small semi-neutral area, have a large litterbox with some munchies, and a spray bottle. you will have to spray before the aggression starts, so keep a close eye on the body language. close supervision will also help you see who is going for who, what kind of events are triggering the aggression. keep the session shorter, not more than an hour. i liked having a small laundry basket with me. in the case of a fight, i would lower it upside down gently over one of the buns. this would keep them within the same area but allow things to calm down for about a minute… and my hands and arms would not be in the way. you’ve made great progress with them, but it might have been a case of just moving too fast. with mine, once there was no fighting at all, i still kept going with the regular sessions for about a week to make sure. keep switching sides every night also…


                                                • Colin
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                                                    I do have a spray bottle that I’ve tried, although I think I might have to get one that has more of a “stream” than a spray. It sometimes works if I catch one of them being aggressive before they really start fighting. Other than that, I’ve been using a piece of cardboard to separate them when necessary. I’ll look around and see if I can find a laundry basket or something like it that’s the right size (the one I used this morning is too big).


                                                  • Beka27
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                                                      you will need a stream setting on the bottle. a mist won’t be enough to stop them.


                                                    • MarkBun
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                                                        Where is the pen located? Is it in a neutral space or is it Digby’s ol’ stomping grounds? It is possible that there is still some space issues happening with them. If you have a couple of old sheets, I’d suggest putting them around the x-pen so they can’t see outside of the pen.

                                                        Do you have a bath tub to do some bonding sessions in? You may need to restrict their space again with the bonding. If they are continuing to show aggression, you may need to take a step back although the current setup should be fine to keep them in.

                                                        Sometimes rabbits just do or ‘say’ something that sets them off and then there’s a whole new ‘battle’ over dominance. I know this may sound silly but the moon is now just waning so maybe that was the issue. The videos did seem like they were ready for the next step.


                                                      • Colin
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                                                          The xpen is in their “exercise room”, which they’ve been roaming freely a couple hours at a time, twice a day for the past 4 days. Granted, Digby was there first, but they were doing so well in there together before. I’ll see if I can find some old sheets to block the view.

                                                          Should I start giving them solo exercise time again, until they can do well together in an undivided space?


                                                        • MarkBun
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                                                            I would give them some solo time again for about five days and then try the dual exercise time again. I know that this may sound silly but we just had a full moon that was more ‘powerful’ than normal.

                                                            Sorry, I live near Berkeley so I haveta be part hippie.


                                                          • Beka27
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                                                              my experience has been this: towards the end of my bonding adventure, the only out-time my buns got were *during* the bonding sessions. i think if you do it that way they will begin to equate playtime (a GOOD thing!) with the other bun ALWAYS being there. if they have separate playtime, it’s easier to pretend that “the other guy” is not a permanent fixture… they will have limited runtime for the short term, but in the long term you’ll have a better result.


                                                            • Beka27
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                                                                LMAO!!! we posted at the same time Markus and gave opposite advice! NICE!

                                                                do it Markus’ way and then try it mine… lol!


                                                              • MarkBun
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                                                                  I am a big fan of not going back. But if the first thing Yoshi does during playtime is to go after Digby, then I’d suggest seperate playtimes but within site of one another.

                                                                  Note, I’m not an expert on bonding – I just went through hell for 4 months bonding my two.


                                                                • Colin
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                                                                    It looks like things are back on track, with a couple minor differences.

                                                                    After their spat, I reassembled the 2nd NIC cage (sigh). For the first couple days after that, we went back to bonding sessions in the bathroom, and for the past 3 or 4 days, we’ve been bonding them in the xpen in the living room. They’re doing well – snuggling and grooming each other – although I still have to keep an eye on them. Digby doesn’t seem interested in mounting Yoshi anymore, but Yoshi does often stick his nose in Digby’s hindquarters. I think Yoshi is nipping him, since after a couple seconds, Digby gets annoyed and turns around. Last night Yoshi tried mounting Digby again, which never ends well. He can’t really hold him down, since Yoshi is so much smaller, which means that Digby just turns around, and they both go after each other’s hindquarters, spinning around. I think Yoshi still really wants to be the dominant one though. He’s definitely more comfortable now, as he often flops next to Digby – I hadn’t seen him flop at all before, unlike Digby, who’s a chronic bunnyflopper

                                                                    This morning, Yoshi was a little weird. The two of them shared some veggies and snuggled a bit. They were both in the litterbox, then Yoshi hopped off to the opposite corner and sat down. After a little while, he thumped. Digby hopped over to him and snuggled up. Then Yoshi thumped again. Digby stuck his head under Yoshi’s, and Yoshi started grooming him. Yoshi thumped again, but kept grooming Digby! I guess Digby wasn’t the thing that was annoying him (might have been the sound/vibrations of the heater or dryer from downstairs).


                                                                  • Beka27
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                                                                      this sounds odd, but is there anyway you could pet Digby so Yoshi could hump for a moment without a fight breaking out? sometimes they just have to get it out of their system and it needs to be allowed for a short time.


                                                                    • Colin
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                                                                        They started fighting again while bonding last night. I didn’t see exactly what started it, but they were in the litterbox again. I think next time we’re going to try in a new area, maybe the kitchen, without the litterbox.

                                                                        Beka, I’ll try to keep Digby calm so Yoshi can get the humping out of the way, but Yoshi usually starts by nipping his backside, and it usually doesn’t turn into humping.

                                                                         

                                                                        Does anyone know any bonding experts who aren’t here on BinkyBunny? I’d love to get some advice from someone with experience bonding 2 males.


                                                                      • Beka27
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                                                                          ^^^that i don’t know… you could always contact the rescue you got Yoshi from and see if they do boarding/bonding adventures… aside from that, it’s really just working with them every day, reading the signs, and not giving up. if something is consistently not working, try something else. i think two males are generally the easier of the same sex pairings. females tend to be more territorial.


                                                                        • Colin
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                                                                            We’ve been doing the bonding sessions back in the bathroom again, and it’s working much better. They still occasionally go for each other’s hindquarters (can’t tell if they’re trying to groom or nip, or both), but I’ve been giving nose rubs to the one being nipped/groomed, and that seems to defuse the situation. No humping attempts at all for the past couple days either.

                                                                            I haven’t had a chance to clean their anal glands yet, but I’m wondering if that might help, since that’s where some of the hormones are secreted from. Neither one really enjoys being picked up or handled, so I’m working on getting them used to it.


                                                                          • MarkBun
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                                                                              One thing you’ll have to realize is that they probably won’t ever be 100% calm friends. Maryann and Dono still get into tiffs about once a week that last for about 3-5 seconds. Other than that, things seem to be progressing normally.


                                                                            • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                                                                                ^^ That’s definitely true…every once in a while Rupert will nip Kahlua when she goes by, and sometimes they’ll even have a little hump! But they’ve been bonded since June and otherwise don’t have scuffles, cuddle and coexist peacefully and lovingly.

                                                                                Glad things are going better -keep up the great work!


                                                                              • Colin
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                                                                                  The bonding is… still going. Each session, they get into at least one little scuffle. But they also groom each other each session. I think I’m going to give them a day or two off, then start again with either a car ride or washing machine ride.


                                                                                • Beka27
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                                                                                    you might not need to do a stressful activity if they are basically getting along, that’s for when they are really out for blood. will they eat veggies or hay together? or sit in a litterbox together? how is the water bottle working? do you spray before the fight starts?


                                                                                  • Colin
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                                                                                      They do eat veggies together peacefully, but they seem to be getting slightly more aggressive over the past 2 weeks. Sometimes the water bottle helps, but not always. Should I spray one as soon as he nips the other’s backside? Often the one being nipped will just turn around, sniff the other’s head (or sometimes groom them), and they’ll be fine.

                                                                                      I haven’t been putting a litter box in with them for bonding sessions, since that was usually where the fighting started. Once I feel they’re doing well enough to leave them in there for an hour or more, I’m planning on putting two litter boxes in with them.


                                                                                    • Beka27
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                                                                                        i would def. give them a litterbox with hay. what i did was lift them both in (facing the same direction) and then pet both vigorously at the same time. are you still in neutral territory or semi-neutral territory?


                                                                                      • Colin
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                                                                                          We’re in neutral territory – an xpen in the living room, which they’ve only ever been in together. They seemed to do fine sharing the litterbox before their first fight, but it’s also where their two biggest fights started.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          I want to thank everyone for all the advice on this thread (and others). I definitely would have been much more stressed out without this great resource and community.


                                                                                        • Colin
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                                                                                            I tried putting them both in the litterbox. I put Digby in first, then Yoshi. Unfortunately, as soon as I put Yoshi in there, Digby growled and lunged at him. I tried petting them both, but Digby wanted to get at Yoshi and Yoshi just wanted to get out. It’s a litterbox I keep in their exercise room that they’ve both used.  Next time I’ll try cleaning it with vinegar first to remove any scents.


                                                                                          • Colin
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                                                                                              I put up a dividing wall in their exercise room so they could both be in there at the same time and see each other. It seemed pretty sturdy (2 rows of NIC grids attached to chairs on each end), but tonight they found a way to get through it. There was fur all over the floor. They must have fought quite a bit, but when I came in they were snuggled together under a cardboard tent and blanket I had set up in there. I brought some veggies in there, and they both ate, but when we had a chance to examine them, we found a bit of a gash on Yoshi’s shoulder. It didn’t bleed at all, but the skin was broken a little, so I put some triple antibiotic ointment on there. It’s about 1.5 inches long and less than quarter of an inch wide.

                                                                                              The divided room seemed to be working really well until now. I think being in sight of each other 24/7 really helped, there was no aggression at all during the bonding sessions.

                                                                                              I feel terrible – incredibly stressed out and sick to my stomach. They seem ok – both are eating veggies and hay. I don’t even have time to take them to the vet tomorrow.


                                                                                            • Cassi&Charlie
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                                                                                                It’s not your fault! Now that they’ve had it out it might get better. The same thing happened to me when I was bonding Charlie & Layla, some how they got to each other, and I was at work when it happened – I could not believe that so much fur could come off one bunny (Layla).

                                                                                                After that they actually started getting along better & I think it was probably 2 weeks after that when we unofficially declared them bonded.

                                                                                                The fact that they fought then snuggled might mean the dominance issue has been sorted out? I don’t know, I’m definately not an expert bonder


                                                                                              • Colin
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                                                                                                  I sure hope they’ve sorted it out amongst themselves. I don’t know if I can take another night like this. My heart skipped a beat when I came in the room and saw that the divider was down and there was fur everywhere… then I saw them snuggling together.

                                                                                                  I think I’ll do a very short, very cautious bonding session tomorrow if they both seem to be ok.


                                                                                                • MarkBun
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                                                                                                    There has been quite a few cases where buns got to one another, there was a big fight and then they were the best of buds afterwards. They’ve just worked out everything and it’s all good.


                                                                                                  • Colin
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                                                                                                      I really hope so. Unfortunately I have had to hold off on bonding sessions, since Digby is very persistent about trying to groom Yoshi’s wounds, and I’m worried he’s going to make them worse. Yoshi is healing well though, so hopefully I can start bonding them again in about a week or so. I’ve reinforced the barrier in their playroom, so they’re still in sight of each other all day. Occasionally Yoshi will run back and forth in front of the barrier, like he’s trying to taunt Digby, but they also lie down next to each other and groom themselves, so I’m hoping that they won’t have to start back at square one again.

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                                                                                                  Forum BONDING A friend for Digby