Forum

OUR FORUM IS UP BUT WE ARE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF UPDATING AND FIXING THINGS.  SOME THINGS WILL LOOK WEIRD AND/OR NOT BE CORRECT. YOUR PATIENCE IS APPRECIATED.  We are not fully ready to answer questions in a timely manner as we are not officially open, but we will do our best. 

You may have received a 2-factor authentication (2FA) email from us on 4/21/2020. That was from us, but was premature as the login was not working at that time. 

BUNNY 911 – If your rabbit hasn’t eaten or pooped in 12-24 hours, call a vet immediately! Don’t have a vet? Check out VET RESOURCES

The subject of intentional breeding or meat rabbits is prohibited. The answers provided on this board are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. It is your responsibility to assess the information being given and seek professional advice/second opinion from your veterinarian and/or qualified behaviorist.

What are we about?  Please read about our Forum Culture and check out the Rules

BUNNY 911 – If your rabbit hasn’t eaten or pooped in 12-24 hours, call a vet immediately!  Don’t have a vet? Check out VET RESOURCES 

The subject of intentional breeding or meat rabbits is prohibited. The answers provided on this board are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet.  It is your responsibility to assess the information being given and seek professional advice/second opinion from your veterinarian and/or qualified behaviorist.

BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum DIET & CARE Please help – E cuniculi

Viewing 9 reply threads
  • Author
    Messages

    • Sian
      Participant
      4 posts Send Private Message

        My 3 year old rabbit was diagnosed with e cuniculi about 7-8 months ago. We had some trouble diagnosing initially because our vet thought it was a urine infection, so he’s only been on Lapizole for around 2 months now. His main symptoms are hind leg weakness, urine scald and unable to clean himself so he gets filthy.

        Over the past day or 2 he has gotten much worse and I’m desperate to help him – he is visiting a rabbit specialist in 1 days time but they are fully booked and so until then I want to make sure he’s ok. He has been sitting upright (not in loaf like usual) and swaying slightly- I’m worried he’s in pain and can’t sleep – gave him a tiny amount of metacam but I don’t like giving him too often because I’m worried it will damage his kidneys. He drinks a lot which potential sign of kidney damage, but he has always drank more than the other buns we have. Should I risk it with metacam daily?

        Does anyone have any tips on cleaning him?? He gets filthy around his tail, the smell is awful, so we soak him standing up in a bucket and then rinse, then blowdry, but I worry about him over heating under the blow drier… but if I leave him damp then he never dries as he’s an indoor rabbit, and damp skin could lead to an infection. Also every time we bathe him it seems to make his legs weaker. Is it best to wash him daily or is that bad for a rabbit?

        He is eating a lot, but his back legs are getting worse and today he couldn’t even get into his litter tray – I’m sick with worry and any advice would be much appreciated.


      • jerseygirl
        Moderator
        22345 posts Send Private Message

          Im sorry you and he are going through this. Sending many {{{vibes}}} his way!

          I think metacam is worth it. While the lapizole will reduce the amount of ec parasite, it’s inflammation that causes the symptoms, so anti-inflammatory meds like metacam important. It’s more effective to give 12 hourly as rabbit metabolise it so quickly. 

          An alternative to NSAID’s is steriod injections (dexamethasone) but they have their own set of issues. They can depress the immune system and also affect how well fenbedazole works. (Though, now he’s been on it 2 months, perhaps this isn’t as much an issue?) Rabbits can only have a few of these shots, I think. It’s a gamble, but they can be quite effective in reducing inflammation. It might be enough to bring him out of this decline of the past few days.  Just be aware that steroid anti-inflammatory meds and NSAID can not be used together. 


          For managing his hind end, ask about the clinic doing a sanitary shave. It will look awful, I know, but it will prevent the urine being held in the fur and agains his skin. You can then use barrier creams to help protect the shaved area. If he’s not moving around much or getting to the litter box, consider using something like vet bed with puppy pee pad underneath. It stays dry on the top and urine goes through to soak into the pad underneath.
          An alternative would be something like puppy whelping mats.

          Is he having blood test done while on the lapizole? Extended use can have it’s own set of issues. 

          Getting an idea of his liver and kidney function through bloodwork may also help in choosing an anti-inflammatory that would be the least risky.

          Did the vet do an xray of the spine to see if there is any other potential reason for the hind end weakness?


        • Sian
          Participant
          4 posts Send Private Message

            Thankyou so much for your response. His appointmentment is tomorrow so I will speak to the vet about some of those points you mentioned!

            He has had an xray in the past and everything showed up normal. He’s also had blood and urine tests a few months ago and everything seemed to be OK – but seeing as he has recently declined in health I think I’ll ask the vet for some more investigation.

            He’s had small doses of metacam today and yesterday to hopefully pick him up, he’s moving around and eating- but also every time I look at him he is sitting upright which I’m worried means he’s in pain.

            Seeing a rabbit specialist tomorrow – fingers crossed! He’s one of those buns who loves attention, loves being stroked and shows no fear of humans ever so it’s extra heartbreaking that he’s unwell


          • Sian
            Participant
            4 posts Send Private Message

              Hi – just thought i would post an update in case there is anyone searching for info regarding e cuniculi.

              After we saw the rabbit savvy vet, he prescribed 0.35ml metacam (hes a small bun and the metacam might be long term so a fairly low dose), fucidin cream to put on his wounds, oral antibiotic to prevent infection in his wounds, and panacur. He also recomended vetbed. He shaved the fur around his tail and explained that his biggest risk is urine scald. He explained we had been too focused on trying to get rid of e cuniculi, when really we should be focusing on his burns.

              Since then we have bathed him every day. Initially he was very bad, his skin was so burnt, both legs were dead and he was dragging them behind him. He barely moved and was not himself. Still eating though.

              The ends of his fur went a black colour so we decided to give him an extra deep clean. We soaked him in warm water mixed with a small amount of sea salt and bunny shampoo. We timed 15 mins and he hated this. We used small nail scissors to cut away the thick, black fur around his tail. Underneath the skin was red and bleeding slightly. He was in pain and he started shaking and it was incredibly sad however we couldnt leave him with all this muck. So we gave him an extra 0.2ml of metacam for the pain. Then blowdried him with the cold setting. Then applied his cream. This whole process took about an hour and a half. We had to be incredibly careful not to cut him with the scissors and i would only recomend doing this to a rabbit who you know wont twitch!!!!

              Today he has been so much better! He has been walking almost normally and he had a checkup with the vet who agrees hes had a massive improvement. I think it was the combination of the deep clean and the metacam. Also we have been expressing his bladder and using vetbed and puppy pads. We have also changed his environment so there are no remaining e cuniculi spores while he recovers. The vet said grass is good for urine scald as it will not burn like carpet.

              Sorry for the long post – I feel there is not much info on the internet regarding this illness and i have been desperately scouring the internet for help for months. Thought the info from a rabbit savvy vet would be invaluable and i should share this experience, especially since Cece has had a big improvement. He was so bad last week we thought it might be best to put him to sleep. Will continue to post updates.


            • vanessa
              Participant
              2212 posts Send Private Message

                Hi Sian,
                I’v been caring for my EC bunny too. He has been sick for 11 months now. I have a long thread called “Lancelot’s E-Cuniculi Journal”. Here’s the short version… different vets say different things, so I do my own research and decide what I feel is best for him – and that’s what I ask for. He also has rear limb weakness, and to a lesser degree – front limb weakness. I suspect arthritis – but haven’t been able to get an X-ray for him. He is on daily Metacam – 0.3ml once a day. He is 4lbs. It makes a HUUUUUUge improvement. I use 5 days of fenbendazole AND Toltrazuril, once a month. so Monday-Friday as the month turns over – he gets his 5 days of suppression treatment. I agree that you can’t cure EC – and you can’t reverse the damage. All you can do is be proactive, notice the symptoms, and act quickly. He is also still on Baytril. When I take him off, the ear infections come back. So I’m keeping him on baytril. 4 times a year I give him 2 doses of ivermectin separated by 10 days each.

                He has been incontinent for 11 months. By this stage – he falls over regularly, and that is bad because he can’t stand up once he is lying his side. So I removed him from his bonded pal, and keep him in my bedroom where I can give him plenty of care. He is in a diaper 24/7. That has been the best thing for keeping him dry. I also struggled with urine scald with him, but it sounds like your little guy has worse scald. Lancelot used to struggle with scale on the inside of his legs from his poor posture, his feet from sitting in it, his butt/tail and above his tail from sitting in it, and the outside of his legs from lying in it. It took me a while to figure otu a good diaper routine. Changing the diaper frequently is key. I don’t cut a hole for the tail because it allows urine to touch the base of the tail as it soaks through the cut portion of the diaper. Expressing his bladder with each diaper change also helps dramatically – it means less urine in the diaper!
                This is his routine:
                0530 diaper change and express his bladder. Baytril, breakfast.
                0730 diaper change and express his bladder
                1200 diaper change (my bf helps me with this during his lunch break. If I’m working an 8-hour day, it “might” be possible to skip this change)
                1600-1700 diaper change and express bladder (depending on when I get home from work). Baytril, Metacam, dinner.
                2000 diaper change/express bladder
                2300 diaper change/express bladder
                0200-0300 diaper change/express bladder (yes – I drink a full glass of water before I go to bed so that I’ll wake up at 0300 myself – and change his diaper, that way I dont’ have to set an alarm clock and disturb anyone else in the house).

                Occasionally, especially if he falls over, he’ll get pee on his tail, and above his tail. If I’m in a hurry, I powder him with baby powder and wash him later. He gets a spot bath every weekend, and more often if needed. I don’t need to soak him anymore, now that he is in a good diaper routine. I just spot clean him by holding the dirty part under running water, soaping, rinsing, then drying.

                To dry… I keep the fur trimmed. Towel dry, then paper towel blot, then hair dryer on low, 18 inches from his skin, waving my hand under it to monitor the temp.
                Both urine – AND not drying properly, will cause fur to fall off. So drying is super super important.

                I use Sudocrem for any urine rash. Works like a charm. I use Chlorhexadine shampoo to wash him, as it is antoibacterial for pets.

                Bedding – he uses fleece veterinary bedding. His current setup is a large mixing tub from lowes/home depot for $7. I put a puppy pee pad in it, then fleece bedding, then I roll up a towel for the edge, and a soft blanket as his “donut”. It keeps him supported. He needs a chin rest. Weak rabbits don’t sleep easily with their heads on the ground, because of the effort it takes to sit up again. He uses the donut as a chin rest, and his stuffy. The stuffy also provides comfort, and gives me a good idea of his level of affection. He grooms both me and the stuffy. I need to know that he is still Affectionate, has Appetite, and Attitude – for his quality of life.

                Now that the EC is under control – I’v noticed a DECREASE in water consumption. He used to drink 3 cups a day. Now he drinks 1 cup a day. More realistic for a bunny his size.

                Cecotropes – When I change his diaper, I offer him his cecotropes. He eats them readily. They can cause problems in the diaper though – I divide his food evenly so that his cecotropes are divided evenly throughout the day. If he poops them all out overnight, or while I’m at work, the urine in the diaper runs off the cecotropes and onto his skin.

                I supplement his food with Critical care, and Sherwood Forest SARX, and SARX Plus. 6 Tbsp powder to 18 Tbsp water. Every day. It’s difficult keeping weight on him. At this point – I feed him whatever and how ever much of anything he is willing to eat. Except for fruits. He never gets fruit. During his sick spells/relapses, he stops eating.drinking, and I flavor his water to try to encourage him. I use apple juice or V-8 veggie juice. But I’v discovered that a twig of cilantro and an inch of celery give it a nice flavor too.

                P.S. not all his medication is from a vet. Like I said – they all say different things. I’v found what works, and which vet I prefer. I’m not ready to euthanize him. I don’t think he’s ready either.

                Oh – another complication is that his lack of posture hides gas symptoms. The limb weakness means the typical stomach pressed to the ground for gas – is not there. So I listen to his belly to know if he needs simethicone.

                Ears – he can’t reach them, and in trying, he falls over. So I clean them twice a week. I use Otis Ear cleanser with drying aid. Works like a charm. Put a few drops in, gently roll the ear, use a good headlamp, aim with the q-tip, go for gold! It is very tickelish, so after a little practice, I can get it done quickly.

                Mites – the suppressed immune system could lead to mites. Lancelot has fur mites on his ears. I was advised that with his suppressed immune system. ivermectin is not likely to work on the mites. I rub oil on the inside and outside of his ears every second day. I can see improvement because the hair is growing back.

                Teeth – he stopped eating hay 11 months ago, so he gets his teeth filed 3-4 times a year.
                He is deaf and blind.
                Quality of life – A,A,A. Affection, Appetite, Attitude. Since he is deaf and blind, I use the same physical cues to guide him to his food, and to let him know I’m about to pick him up. What he is left with – is smell and touch. So I put his food in the same spot – close enough for him to smell, and I give him nice soft comfy blankets and bedding. to the point where he doesn’t like carpet anymore and flicks his feet when he’s on carpet. He loves his stuffy, and he loves snuggling with me.

                Grooming – I use wet wipes from a wet-wipe-warmer to simulate grooming him all over. I wipe his eyes with warm honey/chamomile tea on a cotton ball. He loves it.


              • vanessa
                Participant
                2212 posts Send Private Message

                  Jerseygirl is right about the importance of Metacam, since it is the inflammation that does the damage. But feed it WITH a meal, to prevent stomach ulcers. I did have his kidneys and liver checked with bloodwork – all good.


                • vanessa
                  Participant
                  2212 posts Send Private Message

                    On Cleaning him:

                    Finding a routine that keeps him dry is of first importance.
                    Clean whenever he needs it.
                    Dry thoroughly.
                    Keep the fur trimmed as close to the skin as you can. (I use round nosed scissors for this)
                    Trim his fur once or twice a week. Twice is better.
                    If he needs a soak – fill a basin/sink/container with 2 inches of warm soapy water, Let him soak per the directions of the soap you are using. I use my hands to suds him – not a facecloth. I feel it is too abrasive. I do use facecloths on the bottom of the sink so he has traction. If his front paws are clean, I rest them on the edge of the basin, over a hand towel.
                    Baby powder/corn starch is fine for a quick dry bath – but later when you have time, wash him properly.
                    Use barrier creams such as Sudocrem, or A&D ointments. If the cream has zinc, use it in areas he can’t frequently lick.
                    Experiment with his bedding – I found that while puppy pee pads work well, they still allow urine to pool long enough to burn his feet. So he has a fleece layer over the pee pad. Fleece is great for letting liquid pass through.
                    Consider diapering, especially is his posture is poor and he doesnt’ “square himself off” when he pees, if he slouches while peeing, or doesnt’ lift his butt, or sits in his pee.
                    Lancelot is 4lbs, and my favorite diapers for him are Pampers #1, or Luvs#1. I cut it to fit. I need to take a picture of how I cut it and post it for you

                    P.S. both my bf and myself – work full time, we have 3 other rabbits, 50-something birds, 4 dogs, a cat, a turtle, and a baby due in 3 weeks! Lancelot till needs to be kept dry and fed and medicated and comfortable and loved.


                  • vanessa
                    Participant
                    2212 posts Send Private Message

                      You mentioned grass vs carpet. If u r talking anout a grass mat id agree. If u mean outside grass, id bring him in. He is at more risk than healthy bunnies for flystrike. If he has trouble with grip on puppy pee pads, try the rubber kitchen drawer mats, the ones withthe porous design, on top of the pee pads. I use those on his changing station otherwise his legs slide out.


                    • Sian
                      Participant
                      4 posts Send Private Message

                        Thankyou so much for such a thourough response!! This information is invaluable. Lancelot sounds like such a brave soul. Is the blindness due to e cuniculi? What a horrible illness it is. Seeing Cece drag his legs behind him and shake in pain has been traumatic for me. However he has been doing so much better. He stood on his back legs today and begged for a treat!

                        Regarding the grass- a few months ago his symptoms flared up just before we were due to go on holiday. Hes an indoor bun but was due to move to my parents garage and have some outdoor playtime during the day while we were away. Once we got back from holiday his symptoms were gone (without any medication other than panacur). We took him back to our flat and he slowly got worse, until it came to last week where he was terrible. We were desperate and so took him back to the garage to live – we thought the fresh air and change of environment perhaps helped him before. He moved outside a week ago and seems to have healed again. Could be a coincidence of course. It is 1000x more convenient for me to have him indoors. However im scared of him slowly declining like last time. It seems the fresh air and fresh grass helps him recover! We are using flystrike prevention spray but its a big concern of mine. I dont know what is best at this point but we will see if he continues to remain fairly mobile.

                        Also interesting about the headrest – a few days ago when he was extremely weak Cece had been taking naps with his nose sitting through a gap in the fence – i thought the medication had sent him loopy!!

                        You are amazing to juggle those pets and soon a baby and still give Lancelot all this care!! I will have to test some nappies as its the scald that gets out of control. Does he chew them off?


                      • vanessa
                        Participant
                        2212 posts Send Private Message

                          He doesn’t mind the nappies at all. Which country are you from? I haven’t heard the word nappy in a long time… I’m from South Africa and we call them nappies there… but I’v been living in the states since 2004…
                          Anyway.. He is perfectly fine with the nappies. But his bonded pal tried to chew them off. So between that and him falling over when she nudged him, and nipping him for attention, I had to separate them.
                          I used to use Beaphar on my bunnies. Of my original four – 3 got flystrike. of those 3, one was an EC bunny with urine scald. And he got flystrike 2 seasons running. The second season, with his urine scale, he had 7 warbles removed at one time. Beaphar kills maggots once they are in the body – because it is ivermectin. Rearguard prevents the eggs grom hatching but doesnt’ kill maggots – and they can also crawl up to the bunny. So a combination is best – but if you have dead maggots in the rabbit, they need to be physically removed. Just be careful. It can take up to 3 weeks to notice a warble lump. The first sign is almost hard to see – it’s a pinhole in the hair. So if you see something that looks like a very tiny hole drilled through the fur – the thickness of a pin – it’s a maggot that bored in. Check your bunny every day. All of the fur and skin – not just the butt area. In addition to the groin area (that was the rabbit with the urine scald), the others got flystrike at their belly, front leg, rib cage, and shoulders. The best protection is indoors – or a mosquito net over his outside enclosure, and don’t put him on the same patch of grass twice – or near the same patch of grass. That is incase a fly lays it’s eggs on the grass where he was today – and tomorrow they hatch and crawl onto him. Or he ingests them and they burrow out from his belly.

                          His blindness is most likely due to ecuniculi. He was recovering from uveitis when I adopted him. He has divets and marks on the surface of his eye. By now – he has large cataracts over both eyes. The deafness could be because he is a lop – or due to the recurring ear infections. But I adopted him deaf, so I don’t know his full medical history except that he was fed chocolate…

                          What about windows open in your house for fresh air? Are you in a hot summer climate? How about a crossflow breeze – window open on both sides of the room for active air flow? It’s his immune system that you are relying on to keep him from declining. So if fresh air helps his immune system – maybe that’s why an outdoor environment seems to help? I’d look at all ways possible to make him feel comfy and happy – because that is good for his immune. For Lancelot, that means fleece, soft fuzzy blankets, his stuffy, a chinrest, and lots of snuggles. That’s what he enjoys the most. Immune system and state of mind are linked. There are balances in everything – I would normally panick at the thought of a rabbit outdoors with urine scald – and I do panick at that thought – but if you can find a way to keep him safe, and it benefits his immune system, then it might be worth it. Are you in an agricultural area? Any cows/sheep/donkeys/goats in a your neighborhood? They attract Bot flies.

                          Good to hear he was on his back legs. I hold my hand out to balance Lancelot when he gets up on his back legs.

                          I think a good medication routine has been helpful for Lancelot. Between the metacam, baytril, toltrazuril and fenbendazole, I really fell that it is under control at the moment, and I can focus on his mental/emotional/physical comfort.

                          EC is really a horrid disease. And not only for the disease itself, but the complications that have to be managed…

                          Shaking could also be tremors that are caused by nerve damage from EC.

                          How is his appetite and weight?

                      Viewing 9 reply threads
                      • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

                      Forum DIET & CARE Please help – E cuniculi