Poorly bunny advice needed asap please

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Hi I’ve just joined this website in the hope that someone can help. My almost 5 yr old bunny (honeybun-we were told he was a girl for the beginning of his life and the name just stuck!) has always been a happy healthy bunny with a massive appetite. We moved house about 4 weeks ago FYI. Up until last week he was absolutely fine. Then 3 days ago I picked him up for a cuddle as normal and he was suddenly stick thin and bony, this has never been an issue, he has a good diet and I literally only picked him up a couple days prior to this (I’m with him everyday but only pick him up for cuddles) and he felt normal, his spine was normal and I even clipped his nails so I would’ve noticed a significant weight change. He also, again very suddenly, seemed really weak, tired and his legs seemed weak also. There was 2 hidden patches of hair loss (he’s malting so it was hard to find) down his spine and not as shiny as usual. Thought he had mites (flaky dandruff and I could see 2 black dots) so treated him for that. His appetite was still great, he had a bit to drink but his poops were half the size. Took him straight to the vet next morning – who told me to try to ‘fatten him up’ for 2 weeks then get him re-weighed. I took honey home and I was in such a state, I contacted a vet 45 min away who seemed a lot more rabbit savvy and went straight there.
She kept him in and did blood tests, and we went home without him . Needless to say I cried all night and phoned them up 1st thing – he’d been eating loads, drinking and pooping all night. He’d been on a drip to re-hydrate too.
Vet called later and was told he has non regenerative anaemia and low red and white blood cells, I think they said 13 or something. And mentioned his bone marrow and a word beginning with m that I can’t remember (why do I not carry a pen round with me?!). The rest of the bloods were ok (liver etc) and as the NRA could have many causes the only way to find this out is to x ray him. The vets and myself are very reluctant to do that because they are saying they won’t x ray a rabbit without GA and he’s too weak to risk it. So without an obvious cause the doc is giving him steroid injections once a week for 3 weeks, I think to give him a boost and see if it improves him somewhat. It’s all a blur because I’ve been so upset.
So we brought him home last night and I’ve been with him all night downstairs, he ate everything excitedly (if a little slower than usual) but isn’t very interested in his Timothy hay which he usually digs into (he’s had little bits but not enough in my opinion). He also is not interested in his water. Now, my plan for the water issue was to give him his leafy greens after soaking them in water for his dinner, but this morning there was a big pile of mushy and very unpleasant poop (NOT CECALS) and so now I’m at a loss because I don’t want to irritate his tummy further. Thinking this could just be too much veg at the vets because he’s a mini lop he does have a sensitive stomach and his diet was finely tuned to keep his tum working just right, and perhaps the vets just over did it with the veg to get him to eat.
Another important thing to mention is that he keeps trying to flatten his stomach onto the ground and kind of pawing with his front feet. I presume this is discomfort in his stomach or gas? I’ve done a gentle massage on his belly (kept him all paws down as I didn’t want to stress him further) and tried to encourage him to have water (bottle and a bowl) but he’s just not having it . Could this be because he was on the drip so he doesn’t actually need any right now?? Maybe I’m over panicking!
So basically I know there could be something more sinister going on but I just have no idea. Because of the tiny poops do I assume there’s a stomach issue, which the vet didn’t seem to mention gi stasis or anything because of his appetite being okay. Or do I assume it’s a disease or something(the big c ??) or could it be a parasite?
The vets were the best I could find in the area (birmingham uk manor vets -exotic specialist branch edgbaston) but I just don’t know what to do. I’ll follow vet advice and he can have the injections.
Has anyone got any advice? Even if it’s just how to get him to drink, what to do with his diet (he usually has small amount of pellets in the morning with a huge handful of good quality Timothy hay, then in the evening leafy greens and hay again. Sometimes I give him a small amount of broccoli, parsley or kale. And his treats are very limited – sometimes a bit of carrot or banana or other fruit and I never give him processed rubbish). This diet kept him at an optimum weight for all his life so I just don’t know what to do.
I’m so so upset seeing him like this, it happened so quickly and I won’t leave his side at the moment. I’m at a loss of how to help him. hes otherwise quite content, enjoying food and occasionally getting up to play.
ANY ADVICE would be so much appreciated. Sorry this is a really long post I didn’t want to leave anything important out. Thanks xxx

[jerseygirl]

Goodness! So scary for you! I pm’d you before to ask about the vet. I think I know of who she is, and she is very good from what I know! Glad she went straight to bloodwork. Is a transfusion a possibility? I learnt recently that for rabbits, the bloodtype doesn’t have to be matched. Or at least, for a one off emergency, it isn’t necessary..But don’t quote me!! I came across that somewhere and didn’t look into it further, Im sure the vet will know.

I wonder if the steriods are what caused the mucky poop? They are risky to use in rabbits but sometimes are the thing that is needed..
You could ring the clinic and check if messy poo is something to expect when on this medication.

I am concerned with him having such a rapid weight loss, that his liver could be overloaded with toxins. With rapid weightloss, there is a risk of hepatic lipidosis aka fatty liver. From what I know of it, low dose steriods are sometimes used to treat this. Also, hydration therapy. So Im wondering if this is what they vet is treating at the moment?
Im also wondering if giving Questran would be worthwile. It’s a type of resin that binds to toxins in the gut and helps take them out the body. Sorry, more questions for the vet.

Sending many {{{vibes}}} for your boy!

[jerseygirl]

Another important thing to mention is that he keeps trying to flatten his stomach onto the ground and kind of pawing with his front feet. I presume this is discomfort in his stomach or gas? I’ve done a gentle massage on his belly (kept him all paws down as I didn’t want to stress him further) and tried to encourage him to have water (bottle and a bowl) but he’s just not having it . Could this be because he was on the drip so he doesn’t actually need any right now?? Maybe I’m over panicking!

Not really sure but maybe some Infacol wouldn’t hurt? Is he pressing his belly on one side more then the other?

[Bam]

I was certain I’d replied to this an hour ago, it must not have sent.

Infacol can be given to help with gas. It’s available at Tesco. It isn’t absorbed by the body but acts locally in the GI canal and is often very effective when a bun has gas pain. Belly pressing and pawing is indicative of gas pain.

His liver values would’ve been elevated if it were toxins, I’d think. His normal blood count should be 32-50%, so 13 is low. It can be due to many things, an autoimmune disease, a systemic infection, a localized infection (abscess) and also the big c.

To help him keep/gain weight you could try some rolled oats, it’s easy on the tummy and much used to fatten buns up. Tolerance is individual though.

For iron you can give parsley (the red blood cells need iron to carry oxygen). You can also try various yummy greens that can be found outside this time of year, like apple leaves, raspberry, hazel, hawthorn, willow. I’d not recommend you pick anything that is growing on the ground unless he’s been fully vaccinated against myxo-RHD and RVHD2.

When they’ve been given sub Q fluids they as a rule don’t drink for quite a while after, but they do pee.

[jerseygirl]

Bam, that happened to me also. I think original post was edited and was up for approval again, so the whole thread disappeared until it was approved. I was able to backspace on the laptop to find my post and I copied and pasted it here again.

And mentioned his bone marrow and a word beginning with m that I can’t remember (why do I not carry a pen round with me?!).

Perhaps “metabolic” or “metabolic acidosis”? Of you have a good recording feature on your phone, use that at future appointments. I have done this on occasion because stress causes me to only take in bits and pieces.

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Thank you so much I will run those questions by the vet, we are due in for his next injection in the week so I may just ask it all then so I can speak to him in person and see the bloods results properly. A transfusion sounds interesting – I wonder would this artificially cure the NRA. I wish I understood the science of it all so I could have an informed opinion!
It seems to vary, one minute he’s slightly tilting himself to the left then he’ll fidget and become more central but pushing his front paws out as if trying to stretch – but looking as though he’s struggling/hurting. I wonder if the mucky feces was making him so fidgety last night because he couldn’t pass it until this morning – he is at this minute finally started munching on his hay so hopefully this will regulate his belly a bit!
Thanks so much for all the advice, going to write a list of the suggestions and run it by the vet. Have asked about steroid side effects and vet said it’s unlikely to be that but more the stress of travelling, feeling poorly and maybe the different pellets. If he needs to go in again I’m going to send my own pellets in to make sure he has consistency but in the emergency of it all I didn’t get to plan that this time. Going to see if after a good amount of hay his tummy calms down and if not I’ll give infacol a try.

[Bam]

Thank you, Jersey! I was puzzled.

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Sorry I think that was my fault correcting some typos must’ve made it disappear! Thanks so so much for your advice – I’m going to get some infacol in. How would you dose that for a bun (mini lop)? And he can try the rolled oats, I’ll start very small and see how his stomach reacts. He can’t have his vaccinations as when he had them before his nether regions swelled up and he couldn’t wee for days – that was years ago but I’ve never risked it since as my old vet contacted the manufacturers of the injection and we all decided together not to give them in future as that was the only explanation. A one off I believe, lots of buns have reactions but not normally down south!! He is a house bun and I went a bit crazy with fly guards, lavender etc and checking him over so it’s not been an issue. He lives parsley so that should go down a treat .
That’s exactly what’s happened, he has peed a couple times but not drank so I’ll give it a couple more hours then try to encourage him again
Thanks again for the advice I really appreciate it!

[jerseygirl]

The active ingredient in simethicone. Its usually recommended to give 20-40mg/kg. Infacol here in Australia is 100mg/ml, so it is stronger then a lot of the baby gas meds you see suggested for rabbits online UK mini lops are about 1.5kg right? So you could give 30-60mg at a time (0.3ml-0.6ml if Infacol that I have). For gas, it’s usually suggested to give one dose every hour for the 1st three doses. Then a follow up dose every 3-8 hours.

ETA: The stomach is more to the left so possibly it is a bit of gas in the tum bothering him. If it’s something else (kidney?) simethicone won’t help, but it won’t harm either. That he is starting to eat some hay indicates he’s not in too much distress with pain.

[Bam]

A suitable starter dose of Infacol is 0,5-1 ml every hour for three hours. Then you give every second hour, but if it hasn’t helped by the first 3 doses, it likely won’t. Infacol comes with a dropper that contains 0,5 ml. I find it tends to do its work 20-30 minutes after the first dose. Sometimes you can even get to hear the bun fart, but most often the gas just secretly escapes.

How inconvenient that he had that reaction to his vaccinations =( I’m glad he made it through fine. I’ve not heard of that particular adverse effect, but some people and dogs and bunnies react badly to certain vaccines and can’t have them.

[Bam]

Now I went and gave a somewhat different dosage than Jersey, didn’t mean to do that, so now I’m just pasting the simethicone-paragraph from Dana Krempel’s excellent article on GI stasis http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html:

Simethicone

(liquid, pediatric suspension or tablets) is essential for the relief of gas pain which usually accompanies ileus. For relief of acute gas pain, 1-2 cc (20mg/ml suspension) can be given as often as every hour for three doses, then 1 cc every three to eight hours. This substance has no known drug interactions, is not absorbed through the intestinal lining and acts only on a mechanical principle: it changes the surface tension of the frothy gas bubbles in the gut, joining them into larger, easier-to-pass bubbles. Simethicone is practically inert, and is safe to give, even as a precaution, as long as it is not given long term. (Note: liquid suspensions of simethicone are relatively expensive. Less expensive versions, such as 125mg gel capsules are equally effective. A bunny can safely receive the contents of half a capsule at the rate described above.) A flatulent bunny is a happy bunny!

[HoneybunAndElliott]

He’s gone right down to 0.9kg with the weight loss so I will work it out and reduce the dosage even more to be on the safe side. Thanks
Brilliant, I was really shocked when he started eating it of his own accord because he wasn’t interested all night. He’s currently snoozing and is less fidgety – I’m thinking the hay must’ve helped somewhat. But going to pop and get some infacol incase the belly pressing starts up again – it’s horrible to see them uncomfortable isn’t it!
I want to have everything in stock just incase!

[jerseygirl]

Bam, I think the amounts differ depending on the strength of formula. The commonly available one we have here in australia is 100mg/ml

[HoneybunAndElliott]

That’s alright I’ll work out what I think best for his current low weight (0.9kg – half of what it was ) based on the info from the article thanks I think I’ll screenshot that to refer back to! He’s currently snoozing and not much fidgeting is going on compared to earlier, but I’m going to get some of the medicine in anyway incase it starts up again after his food later. Thank you

[jerseygirl]

Some other things that might help is Oxbow Critical care or Supreme’s Rabbit Recovery feed formulas. Also, Protexin’s biolapis or PetAg’s Benebac.

[jerseygirl]

Just read over your 1st post again. Did the bald patches on his back grow fur back? What did you use to treat the suspected mites? Sometimes when there is an underlying condition, you do get things like mites occur concurrently. A rabbit may have had a low level of mites that the body keep under control when it was in good health. But when they became poorly for other reasons, their immune system is less capable of keeping other (like mites, bacterial or fungal infections) at bay.

ETA: Regarding xrays, it is possible to do conscious xrays. I was trying to find a video that Dr Frances Harcourt-Brown had on this but it seems to no longer be present on her website. She uses what she terms as “Immobility response” to do certain procedures or take xrays without sedation.  She is retired now but does professional development courses for vets on Rabbit Health now. Perhaps your vet could contact her about how to do conscious xray?

[HoneybunAndElliott]

I only discovered the bald patches a couple of days ago, they could’ve been there without me seeing because hes malting so he’s so fluffy I may not have picked up on it as they are well hidden. I was grooming him one morning when I noticed the hair was coming out in patches, so looked through and found the 2 actual bald patches. I treated him with ivermectin on Thursday (beaphar Brand) so I’ll have to see if the hair comes back through.

I did think it must be possible to do x ray without ga but the vets in this area seem very stubborn to me, they don’t really listen to suggestions, natural remedies or anything other than their opinion no matter which one I go to. I’m thinking once I’ve met this vet a second time it might be easier to put forward my ideas and questions though, he does seem very nice. How bun is right now.. I think he’d stay still anyway, more so if I was with him but I’m guessing I wouldn’t be allowed near x ray. It’s the same with human docs, always treat the symptoms not the cause

Will ask anyway, and mention the name, I’ll try googling it too. Got to be worth a try!

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Just an update for anyone interested – bun had a bad patch earlier.
the infacol seems to have helped a bit, bun was not wriggling or pressing down as much after his next bit of food I gave him only 0.2ml because of his weight, half an hour before food (twice). Feeding him little and often and encouraging hay in between to keep everything moving. Might try oats in the morning as once his stomach settles I need a plan for weight gain.
Squeezed a few droplets from fresh pineapple into a bowl of water and it seems to have helped to get him drinking a bit again, he’s voluntarily gone for his bottle now which is just plain water.
He’s fallen a couple of times and isn’t getting up on his own which is awful to see, but I think it’s just the weakness and perhaps he’s a bit dizzy/wobbly from the anaemia. Fingers crossed tomorrows a better day, he’s sleeping upstairs tonight outside my door so that I can actually get some sleep and still have him close by!

[sarahthegemini]

Well its all sounding very positive so far!

[jerseygirl]

Posted By HoneybunAndElliott on 5/06/2017 5:43 PM

Just an update for anyone interested – bun had a bad patch earlier.
the infacol seems to have helped a bit, bun was not wriggling or pressing down as much after his next bit of food I gave him only 0.2ml because of his weight, half an hour before food (twice). Feeding him little and often and encouraging hay in between to keep everything moving. Might try oats in the morning as once his stomach settles I need a plan for weight gain.
Squeezed a few droplets from fresh pineapple into a bowl of water and it seems to have helped to get him drinking a bit again, he’s voluntarily gone for his bottle now which is just plain water.
He’s fallen a couple of times and isn’t getting up on his own which is awful to see, but I think it’s just the weakness and perhaps he’s a bit dizzy/wobbly from the anaemia. Fingers crossed tomorrows a better day, he’s sleeping upstairs tonight outside my door so that I can actually get some sleep and still have him close by!

I think E.cuniculi needs to be considered as possible cause.  I feel like Im always suggesting that EC is culprit for many bunnies but it has such a wide range of symptoms effecting different organs and is thought to be wide-spread. The kidneys are one of the target organs and it can cause renal disease and you *might* see NRA  in relation to that.. It also can cause problems with the central nervous system where symptoms include things like loss of balance, head tilt, seizures, hind end paralysis. Not all at the same time!  

One of the other forum leaders mentioned EC also, in relation to Honeybunny. Even if he doesn’t have this, we thought it might be good to mention it regardless, just for anyone searching the forums in the future that has symptoms similar to your guy. 

Really glad to hear youve got some things that are helping him get passed the episodes of discomfort!

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Thanks will ask the vet to test for that specifically if the main tests didn’t include it. Have read a bit about it and did wonder if it could be ec but then his symptoms seem to fit a few different things I’m so confused! don’t want to take him to the vet for several trips so I think I’ll see if he can do it at the same time as his steroid injection. also wondering if the stress of moving and a change of environment could’ve weakened his immune system and started all this off – it’s such a coincidence that it’s happened a month after.

[jerseygirl]

This seems a bit random but would there be an exposure to lead where you live now? In old paint (he’d have to be chewing baseboards or something) or the water source even? I think the type of anaemia associated with lead toxicity is different but weightloss and CNS symptoms are some signs. I suppose something like that would show up in the bloodwork.

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Googled and its been illegal to use lead in the pipes in the UK since 1970, Think this house was built around ’81, so we should be Ok. He can’t chew anything like that as he’s in a playpen with a plastic base when he’s on his own, then when he free roams I’m always here and the house is carpeted and bun proof. The waters good here anyway, but we also filter it too and buns getting filtered water aswell so hopefully not an issue. I guess there’s always a possibility though! I’m interested to know if anemia has to have an outside cause, or if you are somehow ‘susceptible’ (perhaps not the right word here) anyway, if the slightest thing could set it off (stress, mites etc). Like is the fact that it’s non regenerative because of his DNA or because of the cause. I’m driving myself nuts trying to come up with a reason!!

[Bam]

I agree with Jersey on the EC. The symptoms of EC are very variable, but balance issues/ not being able to stand up are among the most common. Tests are notoriously unreliable, so many vets treat empirically with Panacur, a dewormer (fenbendazole). Some add Baytril (an antibiotic, enrofloxacine) and Metacam (anti-inflammatory). Steroids are anti inflammatory so they’ll help with ec as well, if it is ec.

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Thank you, I agree with you both that it sounds like a definite possibility. I’m going to press the vet about it when we go in.

[flemishwhite]

Posted By HoneybunAndElliott on 5/06/2017 9:10 AM

I only discovered the bald patches a couple of days ago, they could’ve been there without me seeing because hes malting so he’s so fluffy I may not have picked up on it as they are well hidden.
  
I did think it must be possible to do x ray without ga but the vets in this area seem very stubborn to me, they don’t really listen to suggestions, natural remedies or anything other than their opinion no matter which one I go to. I’m thinking once I’ve met this vet a second time it might be easier to put forward my ideas and questions though, he does seem very nice. How bun is right now.. I think he’d stay still anyway, more so if I was with him but I’m guessing I wouldn’t be allowed near x ray. It’s the same with human docs, always treat the symptoms not the cause   

I don’t understand the x-ray reluctance.  My current vet has no reluctance to do an x-ray.   X-ray machines today produce much lower levels of radiation than the old machines.  There shouldn’t be any danger to the rabbit.  For sure dentists in this country are really anxious to do dental x-rays.  

A rabbit I once had suddenly lost a patch of hair.    The vet wasn’t concerned for a one time happening.  It grew back in with no problem.

[HoneybunAndElliott]

Hi thanks for your comment. The 2 vets I’ve seen at different practices have both said that they won’t do x ray without general anaesthetic because bunnies don’t stay still, one mentioned bun would need to lay on his side and that’d be impossible if he was conscious, and they don’t want to do a general anaesthetic because he’s been so poorly it’s too risky incase he didn’t make it through. I agree in that respect, I don’t want to put him through a g.a as its huge for a bun and if he didn’t wake up I’d be devastated. Going to ask again on Friday to see if there’s any chance at all of a conscious x ray but 2 different vets in 2 towns have said they won’t do it while a bun is awake :/. I can’t understand it either, I mean if I’m willing to pay for it surely they could at least try!

Thanks that’s great hopefully it’ll grow back and was just from the stress!

[Author]

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