Our little guy just tested positive to E. cuniculi

[Lemonsoup]

As my husband is immunocompromised, we got little Teddy tested for E. cuniculi (not because of showing any symptoms) and I’ve just had the call from the vet that he’s tested positive to exposure. I’m so upset but hoping that it’s just a case of starting him on the medication (which we’ll start on Monday) and hopefully having this dreadful parasite nailed quickly.

Does anyone on here have any advice for what super early symptoms in my bunny would look like? He doesn’t have any movement issues nor a head tilt. The vet asked me how much water he drinks. I fill his bowl up every morning (around 300mls I guess) and he gets through a fair amount of it, but I always rinse it out in the late afternoon and refill. I’ve got no clue how much water a 1kg bunny should be taking on board. As for how much he urinates, I’d say around 4 little puddles a day (during business hours when I’m in the office with him – he had a day recently where he simply didn’t use his litter tray, so I knew for sure because I had to clean them all up). But he’s generally great on the litter tray. But I do clean it out almost daily because if I don’t, he won’t use it.

Also, should I let the breeder know? Due to the high rate of incidents in rabbits, I’m guessing it’s super common in breeders (since I don’t imagine they’re getting their rabbits tested for it if they aren’t showing clinical signs). But I’m inclined to advise them since it might be relevant to the doe that Teddy was bred from (and the buck).

Anyway, just feeling super sad for him. He’s the sweetest little guy and I hate to think that he’d be feeling poorly at all.

[Bam]

You have caught it early, and chances are good he’ll never have any symptoms, esp if you treat him right away with Panacur (fenbendazole) for 28 days, then do a repeat treatment of 9 days every 6 months. A serology test can’t distinguish between a clinical infection and a subclinical (ie between an infection that makes the bun sick vs an infection that is merely dormant and not causing the bun any trouble). As you seem well aware, this parasite is common in rabbits, most never get sick. You can of course inform the breeder.

[Lemonsoup]

Thank you Bam. Yes, his 28 day treatment with fenbedazzle commences Monday. Thanks for the heads up re the 9 day treatment every six months (is this for life or a set period)? I wasn’t aware of this.

One question I have is in relation to his outdoor hutch and the grass. What do the spores look like on grass? I’m wondering if the fine, hair like fibres (almost like very fine woollen webbing) that I’ve seen on the grass in certain areas are signs of this spore/fungi? If so, I’m wondering how I get rid of the spores from the grass? Or do I need to keep him off the grass altogether for the period of the treatment?

[Bam]

I don’t think you can see the spores without a microscope, really.

The twice a year treatment is for life. Some rabbit owners that let their buns graze outside do the 9-day treatment twice a year on a “just-in-case”-basis, without having the bun tested first, because the parasite is so common and the treatment is very mild on the body.

Whether you choose to keep your bun inside all the time or let him out to graze is really a question of quality of life vs risk of parasites, predators and other dangers. How much does he seem to enjoy being outside? What type of wildlife shares the area with him? (Raccoons carry a particularly nasty type of roundworm).

[Lemonsoup]

He loves being both in and outside. When he’s outside (our backyard is very contained) – he’s only allowed to roam when we’re out with him. Otherwise if I’m working in my living area where I can see him, I pop the pen up and then he’s free to be in his hutch and outside in the large pen and he seems to have a lovely time. But if I’m in my office (also at home but near the front of the house) – then I pop him in there with me. Our weather (in Sydney Australia) is pretty mild at present – so inside / outside isn’t hugely different and I don’t heat the office when he’s in with me. We don’t have any issues with predators like raccoons here. And his hutch has wire and fly screening on it as well and he’s got a secure upstairs area too.

[Boston's Mama]

My guy has ec (suspected anyway as can’t rest here) he had symptoms.
I’m also immunocompromised.
A 6week treatment of panacur is best ( 28 days is not long enough and no longer recommended )

The spores are invisible to the naked eye. And it’s important to clean all area he has had contact with on certain days of the treatment – day 21 and day 28 – with a 1-10% ( I did 10%) bleach 90-99% water mix
As bleach is the only thing that kills the spores and it must be on those days

From what I understand the spores only shed when the ec is active ( rabbit will have symptoms ) and it’s usually the litter tray , water bowl , hay rack and food bowl that get the most of it however they will be in any area he has been ( if it’s active )
I would do the bleach clean of his hutch , bowls , litter tray either way ( symptoms or not) on day 21 and 28.
It could be that he is just carrying it dormant as most rabbits do – that’s the problem with the tests – it doesn’t tell you. Because of this your vet may only want to do a one off course not 6monthly 9day doses – unless he shows symptoms – which is probably what I’m going to do ( only treat for 6weeks when symptoms show rather than 6monthly 9days) as they can become immune to the panacur and have it not work when they really need it for ec fighting in a big flare up

With the immunocompromised my advice would be don’t let hubby do the litter tray or cleaning , and if he holds him to hold him in a towel or blanket so the spores can’t attach to him and wash hands afterwards in hot water and dettol soap. I would think he isn’t dropping spores if there are no symptoms but not enough is known yet about that to know – but I did find in my research only 2-3 people with very severely compromised immunities ever caught it from a animal ( and i found nothing to say it was the rabbit strand either ) but do discuss with hubby’s doctor as it’s important to always discuss these things when you are immunocompromised.

I would look a thing moving him inside too – is he usually in a hutch ? You could use a playpen inside whichever is easy to clean if he has flare ups for the spores where as wooden hutches are harder. If the spores aren’t killed they’ll it’s likely to keep flaring. Also being outside poses more risks to his health with entirely different illnesses and parasites which will be more likely to be a problem for your hubby.
Even fur mites can be a issue for immunocompromised where as they aren’t for healthy humans ( a health human can carry furmites to other bunnies but it won’t effect the human – immunocompromised makes it a risk )- worms also are a worry for bunny and hubby

My two live inside – cages with easy to clean plastic bottoms and they have metal pens off them. One had furmites when I got him and EC so both were treated for furmites with revolution which I’ll repeat monthly that will stop them being a worry for my immunity.

My advice would be move him inside – easy to clean area – use panacur for 6weeks now and then 6weeks immediately when you see symptoms – and revolution once a month for mites and fleas ( mainly for hubby’s sake as you usually only need to do bunnies when you see the signs of fleas or mites but it’s good to prevent it with immunity issues in the house imo )
I hope this helps

[Lemonsoup]

Oh my goodness – thank you so much for coming back to me in such detail! I really appreciate it. I’ll talk to the vet about the protocol you mentioned above – 6 weeks as opposed to 28 days (also how easy do you find it giving your bunny the medication? I’m hoping mine is the type who likes it and takes it happily).

My husband had a transplant three years ago (kidney) having spent nearly 30 years on dialysis. His condition was very hard to transplant so the pre treatment for the transplant virtually wiped out his immune system. So he has no T cells or B cells…still. Only white cells. Which means that he’s severely immunocompromised. Having said that, we’ve fortunately avoided more illnesses than most people we know simply because our hand hygiene is pretty much down pat. I’ve done huge amounts of reading on the E.cuniculi condition (the British Medical Journal seems to have the best info I’ve come across) and we’re not particularly concerned about transmission. And my husband doesn’t do any of the cleaning associated with the bunny or his litter trays and has only ever picked him up with a towel underneath (even prior to us having confirmation of a positive test).

Teddy has his first vaccination last week which is when we did the blood test. So I had to wait until today before I could treat him with Revolution. So he had his first flea treatment this morning (which was actually not a great experience, the poor little thing acted as though I’d burnt him, totally freaked out by it – I’m not looking forward to having to do that monthly. So any tips on how to keep them still for this would be appreciated 

I am definitely leaning to keeping him inside – especially during the treatment phase since it’s just going to be a lot easier to keep the inside area clean. And you’re right – I don’t want him to keep being exposed to something and having it flare. And he’s going to be neutered once he old enough as well – so we’ll have to keep him inside during this phase as well. And I just simply prefer having him in the house – he’s such a funny little guy to have around. 

When it comes to the litter trays – should I be cleaning them out completely on a daily basis during the treatment phase? As in throw all the litter out plus the hay daily? Or just do the usual style cleaning on a daily basis (I wash them out with vinegar every few days anyway – but I don’t find that his trays even smell that bad – I simply do it for cleaning purposes) and then use bleach on them on days 21 & 28 (why also are those days so important?).

[vanessa]

I also have an EC bunny. I agree with everything Bam and Oakleys Mamma said.
Don’t let hubby change the litter box. I’d be super happy if bunny moved indoors! If so, keep your carpets clean. Wash your hands after handling Teddy. AND… although there have been cases where parasites in the same genus have been picked up by humans from animals – the species EC has NEVER been recorded to pass from rabbit to human.
So – doom and gloom aside – be cautious, but know that it has never happened with this species of Encephalitozoon.
AND – like mentioned, most bunnies DON’T get sick. About 80% are exposed, and of those 80%, I think I read 7% show clinical symptoms. So it is not a given that Teddy will get sick. Keep him in a healthy stress free environment where his immune system has the best chance of fighting off infections, and enjoy your little Teddy.
You can’t see the spores.
Early symptoms vary from rabbit to rabbit, and are displayed in different sequence too. Increased water consumption, increased urination, urinating outside the litter box, head tilt, dizziness, falling over, head sway/nod, horizontal or vertical eye nystagmus (eyeball shaking), paresis (weak limbs), seizure, quietness, lack of interest, not moving around, needing a chin rest, uveitis, blindness, deafness, those are some of the symptoms I can think of off hand. Not all bunnies get all symptoms, or in the same order, or with the same severity.
Early symptoms in my bunny were increased fluid/urination, followed by weak limbs and peeing outside the litter box.

[Lemonsoup]

Cheers Vanessa. We have moved him inside for the duration of his treatment. He’s allowed outside on the grass for a play and nibble – when I’m around (in the back section that gets a lot of sun during the day as the vet said that would kill off the spores) – but he’s now staying indoors pretty much full time since it’s easier for me to keep an eye on him and keep his space clean.

Re any early symptoms – apart from what seems like more water than usual for a bunny his size (around 3-400 mL per day – he’s only 1kg in weight) and being a fairly quiet little bunny – nothing else on the list is currently relevant (fortunately).

In Australia, the vets are still following the 28 day regimen of treatment and then a single follow up 6 months later. They won’t continue 6 monthly treatments if he’s showing no symptoms as they also don’t want to see him developing a resistance to the only treatment currently available for when a flare up occurs.

I went to the vet yesterday so she could show me how to administer the medicine (he was most unimpressed by it) – so I was pretty stressed this morning about doing it on my own. But he was a superstar. Took it no problems at all and then even accepted cuddles afterwards and is now being super smoochy. Sweet little guy.

Unfortunately the serology report that they do here doesn’t provide the actual titre numbers. Simply says positive – which even the vet said wasn’t much help since he could have been exposed as a baby, finished shedding the spores and no longer have them in his system – but could continue to show as being positive for a couple of years. Hence why having a titre number would (possibly) make it easier to know if the infection was active.

How is your EC bunny going now? Did the medicine help with his early symptoms at all?

[Lemonsoup]

Hi again Vanessa,

Just realised you’ve got a really long post on the site about your bunny’s journey with EC – so I’m going to have a good read when I’m finished work today.

I’ve come to realise that owning a bunny is a similar amount of stress to having a child when it comes to worrying about them when they’re sick or test positive to something.

[vanessa]

Yeah I have a really long journal going on Lancelot… Active EC bunnies typically have other issues develop due to their overall weakened immune system. I suspect Lancelot has Arthritis, and is old. He gets flareups, recurring ear infections, gas, belly trouble. He is deaf and blind, and needs his teeth filed 3-4 times a year. Hasn’t eaten hay in 11 months. When I adopted him he was recovering from stasis, dehydration, malnutrition, and a diet of M&Ms.
The 28 day treatment worked well with him, but the damage dome by EC is mostly irreversable. I switch vets to get what I feel is the best treatment for him because I seem to struggle with getting him the care that I feel he needs. He will always be my special needs bunny. By now, I think the arthritis is the worst of his issues, since he is in contstant pain withotu the metacam. But the EC is still there, and he keeps getting ear infections. Your vet said some strange things… sunlight to kill spores?!? They live int he environment for months after being shed. Try bleach…
I didn’t have a blood test for Lancelot – he was treated by symptoms. I also couldn’t get an X-ray to prove his arthritis. But I managed to get him on long term Metacam, which makes a huuuuuge difference, although hs is prety imobile at the moment. The longer I own bunnies, the more complexities I discover. The more frightened I get at kids owning bunnies – no offence to kids on the forum. It is just hard for a youngster to convince his/her parents to take the $10 bunny to the $65 vet, for the $XXX treatment…
I noticed Lancelot’s water consumption a year before he showed any other EC symptoms. Now it may be that some bunnies drink more than others, but it’s worth not glossing over. Just kep an eye on it. Don’t get all panicky though.

[Lemonsoup]

Gosh, your poor little guy had such a rough start in life. M&M’s?? FFS, some people are seriously warped in their ‘care’ of animals. 

 I’ve been keeping a record of Teddy’s water consumption. I would say he drinks between 250-300mls per 24 hr period. Which does seem a little excessive compared to most bunnies. I clean his litter box out daily. Some days he’s amazing with his keeping his all his urine output in the litter box. Other days he pees around the pen. Not sure if it’s age related (he’s not been fixed yet either – he will be when he’s of age) if it’s behavioural (it seems to be on those days when I’m not paying him as much attention) or if it’s linked to the EC. There are times when his little butt is simply over the edge of his litter box – so that’s totally fine. But then days like now where I had to leave and go to a meeting and I come home to a bunny who has peed three times outside of his litter box and who really smells (he’s had some squishy poos which he’s gotten stuck in his fur). So I’ve cleaned him up and given him a bit of cornstarch powder on the area, but it’s still pretty whiffy. I’ll have to wait till my daughter gets home so she can hold him and I’ll trim off the offensive parts.

I’ve also noticed he seems to be shaking a bit at the moment. Nothing drastic – but it’s definitely there. I don’t imagine it’s a cold shake – since he’s such a furry guy and he’s inside all the time. And he doesn’t choose to snuggle into the bedding or litter box – seems happy spread out on the floor in a flop position a lot of the time. And he’s awfully smoochy – so doesn’t seem unhappy or nervy at all. I’ve got video of it so I’ll show the vet at our next appointment on Wednesday when he has his vaccine update.

I give him his medicine in little piece of banana mashed up every morning now. I had a great first up experience giving it via the syringe and then the next day I couldn’t get him to take it at all and he was clearly very panicky about it despite the taco wrap and firm calming hold, etc. Could the banana be giving him the stinky poos? It’s such a tiny amount, so I’d be surprised. Most of his poos are fine – it’s just the occasional icky ones. It’s only 15 degrees here today (Celsius) and I’m sitting in my office with the window open and the fan on as it smells so much 

Personality wise – he’s definitely a pretty quiet little bunny. He has his moments of running about and he loves tossing his lacquered bowls around the place – but he’s never been as active as some of the bunnies I read about. Mind you, our floors would make it tricky for him – a combination of polished concrete and polished wood (he’s on lino in his pen which is also slippy – but I have a seagrass mat and other flooring options in there for him as well – including a bed that he adores and a tube).

[vanessa]

Yeah Lancelot has had a rollercoaster ride. He’s doing good now that he is on daily pain meds and antibiotics.
How old is Teddy? 10% body weight is a good amount of fluid, so 300ml for a 1000g bunny is quite a bit. Shaking could be tremors, not cold. 15C is a good temp for a bunny. EC can cause tremors. The peeing could be age related, hormones from beign to young to be neutered, UTI, or EC. Nothing very conclusive. It could be helpful to have him tested for a UTI. But unneuered/unspayed bunnies aren’t easy to litter train. Their litter habits vary. Young rabbits don’t either have solid litter habits. You’re giving him the treatment, there isn’t a whole lot else you can do at this point, since he is so young and has conflicting synptoms. The banana could be causing the stinky poops. It is cecotropes you are smelling. Typically, Teddy eats them, and you are spared the smell! The banana is rich in sugar, it upsets his bacteria balance, and the cecotropes that nomally look like beautiful tiny clusters of grapes – are squishy. Rabbits typically don’t eat squishy cecotropes.Try something other than banana. Maybe a little apple juice or white grape juice or v-8 veggie juice? The veggie juice has less sugar. I would try half/tsp to see which juice he likes first. Is the fenbendazole in a liquid suspension, gel, or powder? If you use apple/grape juice, don’t use more than 1/2 Tbsp a day for such a small bunny. Try 1 tsp with the fenbendazole.
Although inactivity is typical of an active EC bunny, each bunny has a diferent activity level. He doesn’t sound like he feels sick at the moment. That’s funny – Lancelot likes to throw his food bowls around to. Including his water bowl – so I use heavy glass bowls.
One way I help make the syringe easier for Lancelot to take – is once I have the medicine in it, I top the syringe up with apple juice. So he only gets a miniscule amount of apple juice, but it’s enough it’s enough that he stops fighting.
For the poopy fur – cutting the offensive fu off will definitely help. BUT – I think you will still need to wash any poopy left over fur. It doens’t have to be a full scale bath or even a soak. I do a sponge bath with Lancelot – I use a cotton ball or my fingers – to wash only the fur/skin that needs it. I think facecloths are too rough for a bunny’s delicate skin. And while you’r eat it – you can see how his scent glands are looking! They can be stinky to. Like a skunk.

[vanessa]

Oh and to help out the mushy cecotropes, you could also add benebac/probiotic to his food. I like to add it to his water. If he doesn’t like the taste (not likely at all), add 1 tsp juice to his daily amount of water. You want him to drink all the water. So I give him as much as I know he will drink overnight, add the benebac/juice, and he drinks every drop. Sometimes I give him a smaller amount of water, and keep topping it up. After 24 hours, change out the water & clean the bowl.

By the way – I like yoru screen name. It sounds delicious! Just add some chicken and rice!

[Lemonsoup]

Hi Vanessa, yes, it’s definitely mushy cecotropes as I had just finished getting rid of a bunch of stinky fur that was on his sides, and I moved him and found a whole bunch squished on the ground that he was lying on top of (a pity I can’t drop him off for dry cleaning ).

And then when I scooped him up and turned him over, he had a whole bunch stuck around his bottom. I picked them off (the things we do) and offered them to him. He gobbled them straight up – so definitely cecotropes. So gross. The smell is pretty gruesome. So I’ll definitely be giving him a cotton ball ‘wash’ tonight. Thanks re the info on the banana. The medicine is in liquid formation. Am I better up squishing up some apple and putting it in that instead of the banana. He’s just so anti syringe and the last two times I tried to do the syringe feed, he seemed so stressed out by it that I had to deal with poopy bum the next day (which is exactly how he is when he goes to the vet – it makes him so stressed that he covers his undercarriage). 

Yes, I thought that drinking up to 300mls a day was a lot for a 1kg bunny. He eats probably close to one cup of pellets a day and a lot of hay. He loves dandelion, rocket, occasionally parsley and coriander too. I’ll keep an eye out for the benebac and get some of this for him. Some days he has only 200ml. I’ll have to weight him this week as he’s probably weighing a bit more now since his last weigh in (and I’ll have to adjust his medicine if that’s the case too).

I just tried the V8 juice suggestion (I had some in the fridge) – but there is no interest in this at this point. What do you think about a little apple juice with the medicine in that and hoped into a bowl? Could that be a better option than the banana every day?

Lemonsoup used to be the name of my business – a PR agency. I merged it with another agency some years back and then went back to being a freelancer / sole agent in March 2015. Which means I get to work from home and hang out with Teddy (and his smell ). Here’s hoping his little bottom goes back to normal again soon!!

[vanessa]

I wouldnt put the medicine in his drinking water. U want to b absolutely sure he is getting all his meds. You could try half tsp applejuice to see if he likes it, and if he does, put the meds in half tsp to 1 tsp apple juice.
Lol on the laundromat…

[Lemonsoup]

Yes, I just popped the medicine into a dish but only with the apple juice – not adding to the water. And he lapped it up.

Fortunately he’s not at all smelly today (the cornflour has done it’s job – I realised it’s known as cornflour here as opposed to cornstarch) and is quite perky. Still lots of fast breathing and ‘vibrating’ almost – but he’s super happy today. And he ate up a storm last night. I came into see him this morning to find he’d eaten all his pellets, nearly all of his hay and quite a bit of his water. Hungry little guy.

Hey – quick question – what do you think of wood litter versus paper litter? With long haired bunnies, from what I’ve read – the paper litter can get caught up in their wool. But I am concerned that the wood litter breaking down into sawdust isn’t an ideal situation for bunnies with their super sensitive noses. I’ll post a separate topic about this but thought I’d check in with you as well. Cheers!

[vanessa]

Wood litter is fantastic. Iv tried about every single litter type imaginable… Wood beats tham all in my opinion. I get horse wood pellet bedding or wood stove pellets depending on what’s available. About $5-$6 per bag. Super cheap. They don’t break down to saw dust. They do break down with the moisture – but it’s nothing like sawdust. Broken down wood pellets looks like brown paper bedding. The grain isn’t fine enough to turn to sawdust. And it is really aborbent and cuts the odor. I’m sold on it. I know there are a lot of people who like the paper litter, for me it was about odor control. Wood beats paper in my opinion. And it’s cheaper.

[Lemonsoup]

Thanks Vanessa. I’ll stick with the wood litter and order a tray with a guard from this site’s shop. Wood litter here is $20 for a 15kg bag. But I seem to go through a fair amount of it since he drinks quite a bit and therefore pees a lot. However I seem to be going through more paper towels at present since he’s decided to pee outside of his litter box. Waaaahhhh.

We’re off to the vet tomorrow afternoon for his top up vaccination booster. I’ll show her the video of his shaking as well. It started a few days back. He shook like a leaf when we got him, but then it subsided and we literally only noticed it when we took him to the vet. But just recently, he started shaking like crazy. Primarily when lying down and ‘relaxing’. He’s definitely not nervous, since if I climb into his pen – he’ll come straight over for a pet. And when he’s sound asleep in the middle of the night – the shaking is really minimal. (yes, I’m a night time bunny checker – I now check the bunny before the child) 

And it’s not that he’s shaking from too much exercise since he’s a pretty lazy / chilled little guy. Even hubby thinks it’s a worry. So will be interesting to see what she says. I’ve taken video of it – but it looks way less troublesome on the video than it does in reality. But knowing how much he shakes at the vet – it won’t be any different, so she should see it in reality.

[Author]

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