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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BONDING really desperate!!!

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    • Deleted User
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        hi

        I have posted here previously about my rabbits fighting. The first occasion was after they were neutered and i found out that they should have been separated after their neuter to wait for hormones to die down. So i was then aware of what went wrong. I followed the advice and everything was fine. I posted on another occasion asking about why my rabbits fought again whilst my mum was looking them while i was away. I do not know what went wrong here because they were living fine together for weeks. 

        My issue now is that they have been separated since I found out about these two fights they had while i was away and They live together side by side, about a 3 inch space between them so they cannot get to each other through the bars. They seem fine living like this and do not make much of a fuss  about each other. The only issue is when they are let out to play, which obviously is separately. The one who is kept in their pen will run up and down sort of following the other. There is occasional interaction through the bars but no nipping or anything.

        Today i wondered if this was making the situation worse and encouraging jealousy. So i have just taken them both into the bathroom, where neither has been before and let them both out. They both explored the bathroom, passing one another with the occasional sniff. This carried on for about 5 mins. the trouble started when Daryl went inside the carrier. rick followed him in there and thats when they began to fight. Rick didnt attack Daryl, he simply just went in behind him and never even had the chance to get back out. I had to tip  them both out and separate them. 

        The fighting wasnt biting it was more scuffling in a ball and scratching. This is very scary to have to deal with and I really dont know what to do. I feel completely out of my depth and feel like i have failed them.

        Im so disapointed  as i have tried so hard to do everything right. Do i continue with trying to bond them? 

        Also, they were both neutered on February 17th. Is it still hormones?


      • Luna
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          I don’t know if it is still hormones or not, but bonding sessions in the bathroom is definitely a good place to start. It is a more neutral place than the room where they are let out to play where one sees the other through the cage. Try to keep the bonding sessions short, and then lengthen them as their behavior towards one another starts to improve.


        • vanessa
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            It sounds like the post-neuter-hormonal fights caused some tension. I would start from scratch with bonding, so they can learn to trust eachother. Like luna said, short bonding sessions. Do everything u can to prevent a fight. The more they fight, the harder it will be to bond them.


          • sarahthegemini
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              You shouldn’t leave the carrier out or any hideaway that’s closed in for exactly what you experienced – one bunny becomes trapped. Scuffling in a ball and scratching sounds like a real fight to me. I think you should move one bun into another room and let them forget about each other for a few weeks. Then do pre-bonding techniques for a month.


            • Deleted User
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                Posted By sarahthegemini on 4/24/2017 11:50 AM
                You shouldn’t leave the carrier out or any hideaway that’s closed in for exactly what you experienced – one bunny becomes trapped. Scuffling in a ball and scratching sounds like a real fight to me. I think you should move one bun into another room and let them forget about each other for a few weeks. Then do pre-bonding techniques for a month.

                Yeah I didn’t say it wasn’t a real fight. I just said it didn’t involve biting. As for pre bonding techniques, they get their blankets, toys, bowls and litter boxes swapped around every few days. I have duplicates of everything they have to make switching easier so they both have the same items in each of their pens.


              • Deleted User
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                  Also thanks for the advice guys. I’m just very wary of attempting to put them together again because the unpredictability of it really scares me. Like I said they were best of pals for about 3 weeks before the situation when they fought under the supervision of my mum while I was away. Is there anything that I should be picking up on that I might have missed. Like how do I know if they are trying to figure out dominance etc. I looked for all the positive signs prior to this latest incident and they were showing all of them. But maybe I have missed something else. I’m very confused


                • vanessa
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                    I agree with sarah about letting them have a week or so break toget over their hurt feelings. Sometimes its hard to figure out what went wrong, and we have to deal with what we see. Id give them a break and then start bathroom/neutral area sessions. And dont give them unsupervised access to eachother untill u can trust them not to fight/bite. Some nipping is normal, but they shouldnt be pulling fur.


                  • sarahthegemini
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                      Posted By Eddyw111 on 4/24/2017 12:02 PM

                      Posted By sarahthegemini on 4/24/2017 11:50 AM
                      You shouldn’t leave the carrier out or any hideaway that’s closed in for exactly what you experienced – one bunny becomes trapped. Scuffling in a ball and scratching sounds like a real fight to me. I think you should move one bun into another room and let them forget about each other for a few weeks. Then do pre-bonding techniques for a month.

                      Yeah I didn’t say it wasn’t a real fight. I just said it didn’t involve biting. As for pre bonding techniques, they get their blankets, toys, bowls and litter boxes swapped around every few days. I have duplicates of everything they have to make switching easier so they both have the same items in each of their pens.

                      Sorry I must have misread. 

                      Definitely continue with the pre-bonding but after a little break. Once you’ve done pre-bonding for a while then you can think about reintroducing them. I think in your case it’s best they forget each other. That way it’s like starting from scratch and hopefully neither will remember the fighting.


                    • sarahthegemini
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                        Posted By Eddyw111 on 4/24/2017 12:07 PM

                        Also thanks for the advice guys. I’m just very wary of attempting to put them together again because the unpredictability of it really scares me. Like I said they were best of pals for about 3 weeks before the situation when they fought under the supervision of my mum while I was away. Is there anything that I should be picking up on that I might have missed. Like how do I know if they are trying to figure out dominance etc. I looked for all the positive signs prior to this latest incident and they were showing all of them. But maybe I have missed something else. I’m very confused

                        I understand your wariness, it can be difficult especially if you weren’t there to see what could have triggered the initial fight. Don’t beat yourself up about it, it could have been something so small/insignificant to humans (a new smell maybe?) that you never would have been able to spot it. 

                        Even bunnies that have been bonded for years might have the odd dominance struggle if the submissive bun decides they want to try their luck. Perhaps your two didn’t have a strong bond as it was so new and therefore a fight broke out when one bun tried to dominate the other? I suspect in a strong bond, the two bunnies would come to an agreement without resorting to aggression. Who knows. Bunnies can be complex creatures! 


                      • Deleted User
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                          Thanks guys. Really appreciate it. Do you know if there’s anything that could have potentially triggered the fight while I was away as I really thought they were bonded. Is it possible that the smell of other animals could have evoked some sort of reaction from either of them. My mum has cats and dogs. Just so nervous about the whole thing. It’s really scary knowing that you could potentially put them in a situation where they could get hurt or feel distressed. How do you get over the nerves.

                          Edit:
                          Sarah, just saw your other comment about new smells. What your saying sounds completely right. Feel a bit reassured now after hearing it from somebody else. Thanks


                        • sarahthegemini
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                            The smell of other animals could have been it! Definitely. If your bunnies are scent-sensitive, I don’t think it’d be a stretch to say that caused it. It could have also been a case of one bun not grooming the other enough and so the one not being groomed wanted to say “hey, don’t forget about me buddy” and thus a fight broke out. Honestly we could guess a million things and we still won’t know for sure but the smell thing is a likely culprit


                          • Azerane
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                              Bonding can be really tough sometimes. Some bonds are simple and easy and others may take many many months to see any improvement. As mentioned, the unfortunate mistake of leaving the carrier in is what instigated the latest fight. When Rick followed Daryl inside the carrier, Daryl felt very trapped and threatened like he had no other way out but to fight.

                              In terms of their fight when they were getting along previously, I suspect the new environment at your mum’s house would have been largely the cause, new animals, new smells and new territory to claim dominance of.

                              As others have said, give them another break before heading back to the bathroom for bonding sessions again. If you have to, keep them super short, like a a couple of minutes long. This way you can avoid them fighting. With shorter sessions though, you’ll have to probably aim for two a day and just very slowly increase their time together. Signs leading up to fighting can be chasing, growling, lunging, raised tails and sometimes forward facing ears, sometimes ears pressed right back.

                              Here’s a youtube video that someone made of their two flemish giant bucks fighting. It shows the aggressive raised tails, ear postures, lunging and chasing. It may be of some help to you in preempting some scuffles with your pair in future.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybfSE0gqXWc

                              Here’s another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I2TPZgORCw if you slow down the speed on either video it’s easier to see the body language that goes along with each lunge.


                            • Deleted User
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                                Thanks for the videos azerane
                                Would you put a stop to the sessions if this behaviour was displayed or do you ride it out until it gets more physical? That’s what makes me nervous is that I don’t want to push it too far and I feel completely on edge. I 100% knew yesterday that I let the whole situation down by having that carrier in there. It just completely slipped my mind as once I let them out I was completely focused on having my eyes completely on them and didn’t even acknowledge the fact it was there until they were in it. I know my nerves are probably what’s making it so hard for me. I find it really difficult when I let them out separately to play. As when they both acknowledge each other through the bars I get so nervous that they might go for one another that I just try to move them on. I know this is possibly hindering them aswell because I need to give them opportunity to show they aren’t a threat don’t i?


                              • BanditCamp
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                                  Allowing the behaviors is normal on them trying to figure out who’s the boss. When you separate is when they are biting, aggressively boxing eachother, or if you think the bunnies are going to become suddenly violent like swift turns to the others butt to bite them.

                                  To reset their bond like others have said give them a week to cool down, your not punishing one by letting another out. You can also switch their housing to get them used to Each others smell as that has worked for some people. 101rabvits has a very good in depth bonding video I’ll link it here

                                  https://youtu.be/HmaH-d1LOxc

                                  Another video is stormy rabbits noting that she did this was her first bonding and it has post thoughts and things you can learn to do and not to do. Personally if I got another bunny instead of the shaking like she does I would do a vacuum or a car trip around the block for stress bonding.

                                  https://youtu.be/Uz-7eEpBEs4


                                • sarahthegemini
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                                    If the bunnies are able to touch one another when one is caged/one free roaming you need to block access. You need to be sure they cannot see or smell one another for a while.


                                  • vanessa
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                                      Yeah i wouldn do the shaking thing either. Id rather the bunnies not know it was mescarying them!


                                    • Blue Moon
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                                        one bonding strategy i started was switching the cages that my bunnies were in back and forth so poppy in one cage cedric in the other. also i clean the litter box is and keep one hunk if soiled litter from each box and also switch that with the bunnies so the sent from the previous bunny stays in the cage if this helps at all.


                                      • Jorin
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                                          I’m going through my second bonding with my female rabbit Luna. I adopted a bondmate for her about nine months ago and he died of pneumonia several weeks ago. 🙁 The first bond was pretty difficult and it took a LOT longer than all of the published data I could find. I followed all of the advice and tried different things like putting them in the stroller or  putting them in the same carrier together. No Way!! My sweet little Luna had turned into a vicious Bunnicula over night! 

                                          I thought that this new bond would be really quick based on their dates at HRS but alas no. The best piece of new information I heard was this: that rabbits are never vicious or mean, just afraid. It sounds so obvious but with that in mind it’s helping me remain more calm during the bonding sessions. I also realize that there is no firm exact way to do bonding because the rabbit personalities are so different! With the first bond the other (male) rabbit was a Californian, big and somewhat imposing looking, but he didnt seem to have a lot of fear so he tended to NOT fight back. This new little guy is half of Luna’s size and is a ‘tri-pawd” (3-legged) but man is he agile and he DOES fight back when he feels threatened. So now I have a whole new set of bonding challenges insofar as watching them to prevent an actual fight yet let them experience each other. Also what has really helped me a lot are:

                                          Side-by-side pens – I keep them in their pens for a good portion of the day. When they’re out exercising they are in completely separate rooms. I stagger the ex-pens so that neither has the ability to get a nice big Chomp! in through the bars and put a closet dowel that’s 1-1/2″ to 2″ thick in between the pens as well.  

                                          Switching buddies and pens – I do this frequently to allow for their scents to intermingle. 

                                          Lots of extra attention! This is a stressful time for everyone. 

                                          I hope your bonding works out!


                                        • Blue Moon
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                                            good luck on your bonding jorin and eddyw111


                                          • Blue Moon
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                                              good luck on your bonding jorin and eddyw111

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                                          Forum BONDING really desperate!!!