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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum DIET & CARE Hi I’m new with a problem U/D Shooter passed on the 31st

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    • xoxShooterxox
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        Hi there, I’ve just recently joined as I’m concerned about my pet rabbit, Shooter who is 4 years and 8 months old.

        Shooter has been known to have e cuniculi

        He has fought through gi stasis, head tilt and many other symptoms associated with it a few times now, we are quiet known at the vet

        I took him to a diffeeent vet yesterday as he seemed to be struggling to breathe, not eating, drinking or pooping.

        At the visit, he told us immediately that he did not look good at all and he was very concerned about shooter

        He was pale, underweight, had a heart murmur and low blood pressure. After a blood test they found that it was not renal failure or Anemia

        He then went in for an X-ray and they found that there was fluid in his lungs and his thorax was compressing which is causing him to struggle to breathe.

        He told us that we should either put him down, or go spend more money on finding out the cause of it which my parents could not afford as well as me.
        We decided to take him home and let my siblings say goodbye. I fed him the oxbow critical feed and bathed him as he was pooping a lotttt of smooshy poops or even diarehea Due to the anesthetic. I petted him non stop and he slowly got his breathing back. His breathing was back to normal we decided to take him to a vet closer to us to say goodbye but I couldn’t say goodbye because he started hopping around. He just had so much life in him and I couldn’t bear to.

        The vet told us it’s okay for us to spend another day with him, so we took him home and I fed him some more and bathed him
        One more time as well as spent every moment of the rest of the night with him.

        I set up a lot of hay, left bits of carrot around and went to bed.

        This morning I woke up, he had drunk some water, pooped a little more and ate a little carrot and hay.
        As the morning progressed, I heard gurgling sounds in his stomach yet, he was eating out of house and home. I massaged his stomach which he hated a few times and after a few hours the gurgling seemed to have stop yet he hasn’t pooped yet. Shooter is eating the most I have seen him eat for a while,

        If he wasn’t sitting with me being petted, he was munching on hay or grass. He chased me down (literally) for some treats. He was just so lively and hopping around with curiosity. How could he be going from the brink of death to lively in 16 hours?

        I am still concerned that he has not pooped yet. He is also grinding his teeth slightly, although this grinding increases a fair bit when I’m petting him but he doesn’t seem to be doing the purr grind. I’m concerned about that. Maybe he’s trying to get his poop out or his tummy is sore??

        I am so confused. I really really don’t know what to do. He doesn’t seem sick enough to be put down

        By the way, the vets I went to yesterday that diagnosed him with the heart murmur etc were uni students…? I know that doesn’t mean much since they know a lot but they didn’t even tell me the severity of his murmur.

        Also why has his breathing improved?

        I am planning onto taking him the vet closer to me tomorrow if he hasn’t pooped by later tonight. Ive taken the last 2 days off school to take care of him and he’s hydrated and I’ve kept a very close eye on him..

        Opinions? I am very stuck on what to do. Should I ask for the serverity of the Heart murmur? Since he’s got fluid in his lungs and stuff should I let him go even though his breathing is fine?

        I don’t know, I don’t want to let him go since he’s going so well considering he was on the brink of death yesterday

        I’m just so stuck and confused, I have no leads and I don’t know whether if it’s his stomach causing him to grind or if it’s something else…it may be the e cuniculi?

        I’m sorry that this is long and may be repetitive, but I’m stressed that he seems fine but he may go down hill

        What would you do in this situation

        Any advice/ opinions or anything is recommended to lead me in the right direction

        Thankyou so much xx

        Jacqueline x


      • Luna
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          Hi! It’s good that Shooter is eating and drinking. How long has it been since he has pooped? I agree with taking him to a different vet for a second opinion. Granted, buns tend to hide their illness/pain, but if you feel that he isn’t sick enough to be put down then trust your instinct and get a second opinion. I would tell the second vet everything you’ve noticed about Shooter and your concerns (hold back on the opinions of the first vet so you can get an unbiased opinion). After the second vet gives his/her opinion, then I would share what you were told by the first vet and see if he/she agrees with that diagnosis.


        • Bam
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            Has he peed a lot? Was he given a diuretic? Because that can drive a lot of the fluids out and that’s a big relief on the heart and lungs.

            E cuniculi is known to hurt the heart and/or the kidneys.

            If he seems to like to be pet, pet him. A bunny in a lot of stomach pain won’t beg for treats or eat a lot. I agree it’s very worrisome that he hasn’t pooped. As for the gurgling tummy, that generally means gas. You can give 1 ml of baby gas drops (simethicone), it can help gas get out.


          • xoxShooterxox
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              Thankyou for your replies <3

              I called up the emergency vet since all vets are closed. She told me that since he basically emptied himself last night, that he may still be adjusting. She recommended that if he hasn’t pooped by tomorrow then I should make an appointment.

              Last night was the last time he pooped.
              I am so glad I trusted my instinct because he was too full of life to be put down

              I’ve called up a few vets for opinions. I believe he will make it I just want to prolong his life painlessly.

              The vets I’ve been to have been transferring the information between each other.

              He has only peed about 3 times since yesterday. He’s drunk an usual amount of water. No major changes. He wasn’t given diuretic.

              They didn’t want to give him anything until we ran more tests and knew exactly what was wrong, but we couldn’t afford it. This was the first time I saw this vet

              The second vet (closet to me) said it was most likely the e cuniculi to cause it. This is the vet I have been seeing since I got him

              His tummy hasn’t been gurgling, but I will keep that in mind just incase thankyou so much!!


            • xoxShooterxox
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                Sorry for my long paragraphs by the way


              • Bam
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                  E cuniculi can cause damage to the heart that could lead to congestive heart failure, and that’s a common reason for fluid build-up in the lungs. But it strikes me as odd that he’d fluid in his lungs yesterday and seems to feel so very much better today without having peed lots and lots. Could the x-rays have been misread?
                  I’m glad you trusted your instincts since he’s improved so much, I hope he’ll poop soon too. We’d be happy for updates.


                • LittlePuffyTail
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                    I think in a case like this you know your bunny best.

                    Hope things improve. I wish I could offer more helpful advice.


                  • kirstyol
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                      So sorry for what you are going through, but I would keep fighting if I was you, as long as your bun doesn’t seem in pain or anything I don’t see why not.

                      Just to clarify a common misconception about the term ‘heart murmur’ here in the UK anyway, people seem to think this means a hole in the heart – in fact all it means is there is an extra heart sound (so the normal heart beat is described as Lub-dub, Lub-dub – a murmur may sound Lub-dub-dub or even just have some other sort of extra sound, they might not even be sure what that is) It is not uncommon for a murmur to be detected if there is a really bad respiratory infection going on, it may resolve or it could be something different all together and totally benign or in some cases it might not even actually be there at all, some people hear different things when they listen to a heart beat one person might think they hear a murmur but no one else ever hears it. If there is a problem with the heart did anything show on the x-ray?

                      Did they give you any idea what they thought the fluid in the lungs could be? Do you know what his heart looked like on the x-ray? When they did the blood test did they note high infection markers? Pneumonia causes fluid in the lungs. I would ask for all the information they have so you can make decisions with the correct info.


                    • tobyluv
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                        I’m sorry that your bunny has had all these troubles, and I know it’s upsetting for you. You do know your bunny best. If it turns out that he has congestive heart failure, I know that the drug Lasix can be very helpful for that. I have never had a bunny with that condition, but there have been some at the Sanctuary where I volunteer that have been helped by Lasix.


                      • xoxShooterxox
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                          Posted By bam on 3/16/2017 10:38 AM
                          E cuniculi can cause damage to the heart that could lead to congestive heart failure, and that’s a common reason for fluid build-up in the lungs. But it strikes me as odd that he’d fluid in his lungs yesterday and seems to feel so very much better today without having peed lots and lots. Could the x-rays have been misread?
                          I’m glad you trusted your instincts since he’s improved so much, I hope he’ll poop soon too. We’d be happy for updates.

                          Thank you for your reply
                          That’s what I was afraid it would be I don’t understand either, I’m very lost right now. He’s been drinking a bit of water but hasnt peed much. I just woke up and found only 2 poops which I wasn’t hoping for. I am not sure if the X-rays were misread, surely they would have enough experience to know? I’ll be sure to keep you guys updated xx

                          Going to book an appointment today for the vet, hopefully they can check over him again and give him something to get his stools out


                        • xoxShooterxox
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                            Posted By LittlePuffyTail on 3/16/2017 1:10 PM
                            I think in a case like this you know your bunny best.

                            Hope things improve. I wish I could offer more helpful advice.

                            Yes, I know he is a fighter thank you for your reply xx


                          • xoxShooterxox
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                              Posted By kirstyol on 3/16/2017 2:14 PM
                              So sorry for what you are going through, but I would keep fighting if I was you, as long as your bun doesn’t seem in pain or anything I don’t see why not.

                              Just to clarify a common misconception about the term ‘heart murmur’ here in the UK anyway, people seem to think this means a hole in the heart – in fact all it means is there is an extra heart sound (so the normal heart beat is described as Lub-dub, Lub-dub – a murmur may sound Lub-dub-dub or even just have some other sort of extra sound, they might not even be sure what that is) It is not uncommon for a murmur to be detected if there is a really bad respiratory infection going on, it may resolve or it could be something different all together and totally benign or in some cases it might not even actually be there at all, some people hear different things when they listen to a heart beat one person might think they hear a murmur but no one else ever hears it. If there is a problem with the heart did anything show on the x-ray?

                              Did they give you any idea what they thought the fluid in the lungs could be? Do you know what his heart looked like on the x-ray? When they did the blood test did they note high infection markers? Pneumonia causes fluid in the lungs. I would ask for all the information they have so you can make decisions with the correct info.

                              Yes that is what I’m Hoping for, he’s a fighter

                              Yeah, when I found out it reminded me of my friend who has one so I was concerned it would affect him since he’s so delicate. The vets closet to me never picked it up but the university vet did pick it up straight away. On the X-ray, he told me his thorax is compressing on his heart and lungs and there was fluid in his lungs that is why he is struggling to breathe. I do not see any struggle anymore which I am confused about. I will post a video later of him breathing if you like?
                              Thankyou for the information I appreciate it!

                              The Uni vet said that they couldn’t say what it was till we sent him away for testing. To be honest, we never got much Info and he said he couldn’t tell us till we put him in for more tests and X-rays. All he told me about the blood test was that it was clear for anemia and renel failure. I asked loads of questions but he said he couldn’t tell me anything till we sent him In for more tests and he can’t say for sure till he sees what’s going on inside of him. Asked him for any ideas of what was going on and he said the Same, can’t say till we send him in which we just couldn’t afford honestly, I wouldn’t have been able to make any decisions myself as I was also stressed at the moment that’s why I took him home, honestly the vet was telling me how sick he was instead of telling me what may be wrong which got to me a little I know he’s doing his job, but he was repeating himself on how concerned and sick he was and How serious it is but I just couldn’t get any information out. They’re an amazing vet and staff are very lovely but it’s a lot of stress to handle. They are very good with pointing out what is wrong with him, he wrote on the whiteboard so I knew exactly what was wrong with him. I’m glad I denied euthenasia there and took him home and reminded him id take him to the vet closer to me.

                              Thankyou for your advice and replyx


                            • xoxShooterxox
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                                Posted By tobyluv on 3/16/2017 2:38 PM
                                I’m sorry that your bunny has had all these troubles, and I know it’s upsetting for you. You do know your bunny best. If it turns out that he has congestive heart failure, I know that the drug Lasix can be very helpful for that. I have never had a bunny with that condition, but there have been some at the Sanctuary where I volunteer that have been helped by Lasix.

                                Thankyou for your reply
                                Do you know if it is avaliable in Australia? How do they know if he has congestive heart failure? It sounds scary

                                Thankyou so much x


                              • xoxShooterxox
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                                  They also found that he has low blood pressure


                                • xoxShooterxox
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                                    By the way with the fluid in his lungs I asked how they could get it out and he said that they have to get it out through the throat or something and send it to the lab for testing on what it was…? Is that the only way they can get fluid out


                                  • jerseygirl
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                                      I think Lasix (furosamide or frusemide) is available here. I think my Mum used to take it.
                                      What State are you in Shooter?

                                      Some of the symptoms sound like congestive heart failure but Im no expert! Perhaps ask the vets about this? I do know it can be managed somewhat. : )

                                      This short article might help about making that decision to put a rabbit to sleep. http://rabbit.org/end-of-life/
                                      For what it’s worth, it sounds like he is managing at the moment. Perhaps he had an enlarged stomach that put added pressure on the lungs also, and once that resolved, his breathing eased somewhat???

                                      {{{Shooter}}} !


                                    • xoxShooterxox
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                                        In Western Australia
                                        Do you get it from the chemist?

                                        Heart failure sounds really scary

                                        Mum sent me a photo and he’s begging for treats and he has started to poop a little bit not a lot though so maybe his getting into heat


                                      • xoxShooterxox
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                                          *gear not heat

                                          I’ll check out congestive heart failure you might be right

                                          Thankyou for your reply xx


                                        • xoxShooterxox
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                                            Just got home, he’s done a few more poops.

                                            He’s been eating non stop all day
                                            Mum told me that when she was at the fridge, he heard the door open and ran for some carrot tops.

                                            Weighed him, supposedly gained 200grams overnight but I have a feeling it’s not accurate…


                                          • Yoyo
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                                              Awe.. just read about your little guy,.. I hope hes on the mend! Sounds like hes got appetite back, for sure at least! * bunny hugs! – I hope he gets better

                                              ________

                                              ETA ** Welcome to BB btw too Shooter!  Nice to meet ya


                                            • Bam
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                                                A weight gain of 200 g in a day suggests fluid retention.

                                                Congestive heart failure sounds scary due to the word failure, but all it means is that the heart doesn’t have full pumping power. It doesn’t mean the heart is about to stop working.

                                                Lasix is a diuretic. That’s what you give to people with fluids in their lungs if it’s due to congestive left side heart failure. The extra fluids are then peed out. But since they didn’t give a diuretic but spoke about getting a fluid sample out via the throat, Kirstyol’s suggestion about respiratory infection/pneumonia sounds much more plausible. They didn’t suggest an antibiotic?

                                                That he’s eating is just so great.


                                              • xoxShooterxox
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                                                  I really don’t think the scales are accurate because apparently I lost 1.6KG overnight ? I’ve been at the same weight since last year since I don’t gain or lose weight easily so I think it’s very inaccurate and I don’t think I’ll rely on that anymore

                                                  He said it wasnt pneumonia
                                                  I’m very happy with his breathing

                                                  I actually found out that his breathing starting improving majorly about 3-4 hours after he got back from the vet that might as I was taking videos and photos of him


                                                • xoxShooterxox
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                                                    He’s very happy! I just love seeing him back to normal and I’m so very happy I didn’t let him go! He’s improved majorly! Such great attitude
                                                    So curious, got his ears moving around
                                                    Will chase me down for treats

                                                    The other day when he was sick, he actually let my brother (who he hates) pat him

                                                    Today since he is back to normal personality wise, he grunting at him when he touched his tail
                                                    (Shooter only likes my mum, dad and I)

                                                    One thing I’m concerned about is twitching

                                                    When he’s laying down, I see his head and first half of his top body twitch a little
                                                    He does it for a few seconds then stops
                                                    Then later on it happens again
                                                    I’ve seen it a few times and so has mum
                                                    Maybe hiccups? No noise is coming with it? Can’t really find anything on it?
                                                    Maybe it’s hiccups but he gets it a few times a day for a few seconds? I’m not sure…now that he’s been sick I’ve been keeping a close eye and monitoring him very closely


                                                  • Bam
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                                                      Sometimes they twitch when they breathe. They can hiccup though, so maybe that’s what it is.

                                                      I’m glad too he seems to be doing so much better! Hope he stays this way!


                                                    • xoxShooterxox
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                                                        That’s unusual! I’m going to book him in for an appointment at the vet down the road. I think he’s a little stressed because I found little chunks of fur on the floor from his feet…so he might be over grooming then considering they’re a little dirty

                                                        Keeping him as relaxed and calm as possible

                                                        Will keep updated

                                                        Thankyou everyone for your help!


                                                      • Luna
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                                                          Yes keep us updated! Luna sends continuing vibes ((((Shooter))))


                                                        • xoxShooterxox
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                                                            Thankyou!

                                                            Mixed a bowl with hay, grass, carrot tops, pellets and a little bit of carrot and he dug right into it! Especially the carrot tops and hay!
                                                            I have a photo of him munching and he looks very happy but it won’t upload


                                                          • tobyluv
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                                                              I’m glad to hear that he’s doing so much better and eating well now!


                                                            • vanessa
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                                                                How are his poops doing?


                                                              • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                  Woke up this morning and he’s pooped a lot more! just a bit dark but they may be due to the grass and carrot tops. Cant make it to the vet till Monday. Was hoping to get him checked over.

                                                                  He’s breathing fine through his nose but his sides of his body look a bit funny while breathing? Or maybe I’m just overthinking and analysing?

                                                                  When he’s sitting, he also bobbles forward a tad while breathing. Kinda like back and forwards but not too obvious. Or is it normal for a rabbit to bobble forwards a bit while breathing, or is it a sign of difficulty breathing? Keeping in mind his nose and mouth is all clear its just his body.

                                                                  I would post a video but its not letting me?

                                                                  Sorry I might be overthinking everything but I have work today and I am so super worried since he’s so delicate and can easily go downhill.

                                                                  Thank you for the help <3


                                                                • vanessa
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                                                                    Id be concerned about the bobbling.


                                                                  • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                      Woke up and found him eating. Lots and lots of poops around.

                                                                      Started petting him, noticed one of his right eye was bulging. It goes then comes away.

                                                                      Also after I started petting him, when he was breathing he started making funny noises. Sounded like he had a cold. I got up and left to tell my dad and he stopped.

                                                                      Came back and he was up and running. Ran to the fridge and gave him a bit of carrot which he was excited for.

                                                                      Really really concerned now.
                                                                      No vets are opened on Sundays and my parents wanted to go out today and now I don’t wanna go with him. Too scared to leave him for a second! I just wish he would get better and stay better


                                                                    • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                        How is your guy doing today?


                                                                      • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                          He is going well He woke me up at 4 in the morning! He jumped on my bed and started climbing all over me and sniffing me! I was half asleep at the time but he sat on me for a bit just chilling then as I was drifting he started hopping over me again! Very cute, gave him a few kisses and pats then he jumped off and went back to his little area!

                                                                          Love him to bits! About half an hour ago he sat on my bed and I petted him and took a little nap with him for about 20 mins-30mins and as soon as I got him his treat he left me :’) I think he was being patient and laying with me just because he knew he would get a treat afterwards

                                                                          Booked an appointment for tomorrow, today was all booked out. Hopefully I can put him on panacur for 28 days just to be sure to fight it off for a bit so I know that its less likely he will get sick again.

                                                                          Noticed the bulging eye is when he’s scared since it disappears when my siblings leave him alone


                                                                        • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                            Shooter went to the vet the other day and he said he seems fine and that he doesnt hear anything in his lungs and his breathing is fine.
                                                                            his weight has gone up and he’s back to normal.

                                                                            called today the other vet (the one further away from us which did the x-rays etc)
                                                                            since they didnt tell me whether his heart murmur was severe or not while i was there i thought id call and ask. the lady had a look through his records and said it was severe and he has heart failure (i wasn’t told any of this there)
                                                                            she said they can do a cardo or something like that on his heart and see whats going on and theres definitely treatment available that will keep it under control but it still is severe.

                                                                            does anyone have experience with this?

                                                                            if its severe and can be controlled, can i keep him leaving for as long as i can or is there a certain breaking point where the treatment just stops working?
                                                                            how much was the treatment? how long do they live for with heart failure?

                                                                            i am very upset now, his breathing is normal and he’s fine but I’m just too scared to lose him


                                                                          • vanessa
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                                                                              Oh dear I’m sorry to hear that. There ar e a few members here who have experienced heart problems in bunnies. I only know what I’ve read. There is a good discussion of it in the book “When your rabbit needs special care” by Katie Smith and Lucile Moore. I bought that book while I was looking for infomaiton on caring for disabled bunnies. From what I’ve read, it can be controlled, but there probably will come a point where the heart gives in. In the mean time, the book does give ideas on care for rabbits with heart problems. I’m sure there is similar informaiton available on the internet too.


                                                                            • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                                Shooter passed away today. He went downhill over night. Woke up this morning and he was struggling to breathe. booked an appointment at the vet then went to work while mum watched him. I got a text on my break saying he wasn’t doing so well so I went home and checked and he was bad. Mum took him to the vet down the road immediately. Walked back to work and got a call saying she needs to pick me up. Went down and he was very stressed and was trying his hardest to breathe. i tried to hold him but he was limp and gasping for air. As the lady was getting ready for the sedative, he started stressing and trying to hop off the bench and he started squeaking which i have never even heard. she called another vet in and i left and came back 5 minutes later and cuddled him in a towel. Im pretty sure he was already gone while i was cuddling him since it seemed he wasn’t breathing and had no life in him, he was cold. I loved him to bits, and this was a very traumatising experience for me today. I do not know how I am going to function for the next few weeks when I have my school ball coming up.

                                                                                I will miss him so much, I already miss him. i just want to cuddle him again. I can’t believe he is gone and I am so devastated. Everywhere i look something reminds me off him.

                                                                                Thank you everyone for your support, I truly appreciate it.

                                                                                I will miss Shooter so much, he will always be apart of me.

                                                                                Rest in Peace Shooter
                                                                                Binky free my love


                                                                              • Luna
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                                                                                  I’m so sorry about Shooter. He put up a great fight throughout his recovery. It’s good you were there and got to say goodbye and give him one last cuddle. 

                                                                                  Binky free Shooter


                                                                                • sarahthegemini
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                                                                                    Oh no that’s terrible news, poor little guy Rest in peace Shooter xxx


                                                                                  • vanessa
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                                                                                      I’m so sorry :-((((((


                                                                                    • Ellie from The Netherlands
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                                                                                        So sorry to hear about the loss of your dearly loved companion Shooter. Binky free little one!


                                                                                      • xoxShooterxox
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                                                                                          Thankyou ladies x

                                                                                          So gutted, every single part of my life was about him. My routines, my room, my life as a whole and now I don’t even know what to do with myself been sitting in bed all morning just wondering what do I even do now, I have no one to play with. I’ll miss hearing the hopping noises and his cheeky ways

                                                                                          I’m sorry I’m blabbering on but I’m just so utterly devastated. This morning it was horrible because I kept urging myself to get out of bed to let shooter out and halfway through the thought I’m reminded he is gone.

                                                                                          Thankyou for your support, it truely means a lot <3


                                                                                        • tobyluv
                                                                                          Participant
                                                                                          3310 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                            I’m very sorry about the loss of Shooter. He knew how much you loved him.


                                                                                          • Ellie from The Netherlands
                                                                                            Participant
                                                                                            2512 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                              Don’t be ashamed to share your grief. We all know how it feels to lose a fuzzy companion you shared so much with. Those of us who don’t know yet are dreading the day.

                                                                                              Indeed, your whole life starts to change after getting a rabbit, your schedule tends to adapt to their needs. It’s totally logical that everything feels wrong and out of place, because it is.
                                                                                              I wish you all the best for these tough times ahead.


                                                                                            • Bam
                                                                                              Moderator
                                                                                              16838 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                I’m so sorry you lost him. You both fought so bravely, though. I’m glad you got to say good bye.

                                                                                                Binky free, Shooter.


                                                                                              • sarahthegemini
                                                                                                Participant
                                                                                                5584 posts Send Private Message

                                                                                                  Posted By xoxShooterxox on 3/31/2017 7:27 PM

                                                                                                  Thankyou ladies x

                                                                                                  So gutted, every single part of my life was about him. My routines, my room, my life as a whole and now I don’t even know what to do with myself been sitting in bed all morning just wondering what do I even do now, I have no one to play with. I’ll miss hearing the hopping noises and his cheeky ways

                                                                                                  I’m sorry I’m blabbering on
                                                                                                  but I’m just so utterly devastated. This morning it was horrible because I kept urging myself to get out of bed to let shooter out and halfway through the thought I’m reminded he is gone.

                                                                                                  Thankyou for your support, it truely means a lot <3

                                                                                                  Don’t be silly. Say and do whatever you need too to feel better. It’s an awful situation, I can only imagine how tough things are. As Ellie said, those of us that haven’t experienced this yet are dreading the day. Take as much time as you need to grieve and keep coming back here for support 

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                                                                                              Forum DIET & CARE Hi I’m new with a problem U/D Shooter passed on the 31st