Was it play?

[sarahthegemini]

Basically boyfriend woke me up this morning as he had just witnessed some bunny behaviour that he was really unsure of – He heard some running around and looked over and saw the bunnies running and jumping over each other. Boyfriend thought they were playing but then he saw some fur tufts floating around and so he picked Buttercup up to stop whatever it was and then put her back down and sat with both for a few minutes. Then they started the sniffing circling that I’ve mentioned before which he stopped. He’s really worried because he doesn’t know whether it was play – I mean the running and jumping over each other could be but we’ve not seen it before and the fur tufts….Buttercup has no patches on her, and the fur could have been shed fur that flew out whilst they were running? IDK.

Understandably I’m also worried because I didn’t see a thing and can’t really judge. They’ve since both gone back to normal, I. E. Sitting together, laying togetherand even groomed each other etc. Can anyone shed light on this? There was no boxing or grunting/growling etc. Boyfriend also said there was no nipping which leads me to think the fur tufts were shed. But we’re not sure. 

[DanaNM]

Hi Sarah, I just read through some of your previous posts about these two, and it sounds like they are recently bonded, and there have been some other behaviors you weren’t sure about?

It sounds like it might have been a “tussle” with some fur pulling, but definitely not a full blown fight. That in combo with the circling, mounting, etc. would make me a bit concerned. Give each bun a thorough inspection for bit wounds, they can scab over and not be obvious.

Are you able to move them back to a semi-neutral area for a few days, just to re-cement them? Some report that their pairs will fur pull occasionally, but actual tussling is not good.

I would say trust your gut on this. You know your bunnies, do they seem more tense than usual? Are they at all fearful of each other? If you are worried, there is no harm in taking a step back.

Also, assuming they have both been spayed/neutered for at least a few months?

I’m pretty paranoid about fighting in supposedly bonded pairs, and I’m starting to wonder if maybe the marathon method might sometimes contribute to issues (when my Bertha was widowed, I marathon bonded her to a new guy…. 5 months later they got in a serious fight).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Mikey]

Its not playing if fur is flying

Honestly, it sounds like theyre going through a rough patch and might need to go through some more bonding to work it out. Stress bonding might help here since they are semi bonded, but having a hard time cementing it

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By DanaNM on 3/01/2017 1:01 PM

Hi Sarah, I just read through some of your previous posts about these two, and it sounds like they are recently bonded, and there have been some other behaviors you weren’t sure about?

It sounds like it might have been a “tussle” with some fur pulling, but definitely not a full blown fight. That in combo with the circling, mounting, etc. would make me a bit concerned. Give each bun a thorough inspection for bit wounds, they can scab over and not be obvious.

Are you able to move them back to a semi-neutral area for a few days, just to re-cement them? Some report that their pairs will fur pull occasionally, but actual tussling is not good.

I would say trust your gut on this. You know your bunnies, do they seem more tense than usual? Are they at all fearful of each other? If you are worried, there is no harm in taking a step back.

Also, assuming they have both been spayed/neutered for at least a few months?

I’m pretty paranoid about fighting in supposedly bonded pairs, and I’m starting to wonder if maybe the marathon method might sometimes contribute to issues (when my Bertha was widowed, I marathon bonded her to a new guy…. 5 months later they got in a serious fight).

Thanksfor your input. I’m not convinced there was actual fur pulling as partner was adamant that there was no nipping, so I assume the fur was shed fur that had come loose (both bunnies are moulting at the moment) Both buns were thoroughly checked over tho just to be sure and there are no marks whatsoever. Definitely no but marks as there wasn’t any nipping. 

In regards to other behaviours that I’m a little unsure of, well it was the circling but after doing more research and having advice on the behaviour section of the forum, I’m 100% it wasn’t aggressive circling, it did make me uncomfortable at first because I’ve not had bunnies before but the circling never escalated to more than  sniffing each other’s butts and then they’d just stop. I wouldn’t say that was particularly concerning tbh. 

I do disagree with the bolded part tho, I don’t necessarily think that a tiff (if it was that?) means they need to re-cement the bond. I think it’s pretty normal for bonded pairs to have a disagreement now and then, so long as nothing escalates to actual fighting obviously. I too am a little on the fence about actual fighting in supposedly bonded pairs. I believe that truly bonded pairs may have a scuffle but won’t actually y’know fight to kill each other. Of course i’ll be keeping an extra vigilant eye on them over the next few days anyway, no doubt about that. Honestly tho, they’ve been acting normal all day since this whatever-it-was incident occurred. I don’t think they’ve been acting tense, although Peanut has been a bit extra sniffy with Buttercup but I attribute that either to spring time approaching or him trying to judge how she’d respond to being mounted (she always hops away so he never persists or takes it further)

It’s interesting that you think marathonsbonding can lead to issues down the line as I too had that fear! My buns had a pretty much love at first sight meeting tho so it’s a little different I think. Thank you for your advice tho, I do wish I was able to witness the whole thing myself, as boyfriend was a bit panicky, but I’ll be supervising them thoroughly and hopefully everything will remain as it is at the moment! Oh and yes both buns are almost 3 months post neuter and spay

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Mikey on 3/01/2017 1:32 PM

Its not playing if fur is flying

Honestly, it sounds like theyre going through a rough patch and might need to go through some more bonding to work it out. Stress bonding might help here since they are semi bonded, but having a hard time cementing it

That’s just it though, I’m not convinced there was any fur pulling – partner saw no nipping and the bunnies are moulting so it could have been that. I am interested in trying some stress bonding tho, neither are fans of the vacuum. Do you think just vacuuming would be enough to stress them a little? Should I put them in their carrier and vacuum around them? I do believe they are fully bonded but it couldn’t hurt to help them realise just how much they need each other. 

[Wascally Wabbits]

Hi Sarah, I have a “bonded” quad (they got into 4 way scuffle a week ago) that I’m currently working on cementing the bond. I try to do a small stress bonding session with them every couple of days. Here is a list of things that I have tried and it seems to work: buns into carrier for 20-30 minute car ride, buns into carrier then go on top of the washer/dryer for 20-30 minutes, buns into a cardboard box (put a nic grid or fence on top to stop them from jumping out) then vacuum around them. With the last one, I find that when they can’t see outside (cardboard box) the vacuum is more effective because they cannot tell how close it is so they’re always on edge. I have also just put them into the cardboard box and dragged it around the house for a bit.

If you think of more stress bonding ideas, let me know! I have also read that with rabbits the first month of moving in you still have to keep an eye out because the bond isn’t cemented yet.

[Mikey]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 3/01/2017 2:27 PM 

That’s just it though, I’m not convinced there was any fur pulling – partner saw no nipping and the bunnies are moulting so it could have been that. I am interested in trying some stress bonding tho, neither are fans of the vacuum. Do you think just vacuuming would be enough to stress them a little? Should I put them in their carrier and vacuum around them? I do believe they are fully bonded but it couldn’t hurt to help them realise just how much they need each other. 

Shedding can cause bonding issues in rabbits. Ive noticed when my Bombur sheds, he gets grumpy and tries to mount often. Once hes done shedding, his personalities goes back to normal. My Badger gets loafy and sad during his shed. Thankfully, my Blues personality stays the same through his shed. Its not uncommon for shedding to make a bun a little aggressive and grumpy for a few days/until the shed is over. If fur is flying, it is being pulled out, even if theyre shedding. Their jumping over one another couldve torn/swiped some fur out, but it is still a sign that they werent playing as that means claws were involved

Im not sure what your bunnies consider stressful. If them in their cage while you vacuum stresses them out enough, go for it. If putting them in the carrier then vacuuming stresses them out more, I would do that for a minute or two

Have either of you googled rabbits boxing? Some box with their front paws and teeth, some with their back feet, and some do it by jumping in certain ways

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Mikey on 3/01/2017 10:24 PM

Posted By sarahthegemini on 3/01/2017 2:27 PM 

That’s just it though, I’m not convinced there was any fur pulling – partner saw no nipping and the bunnies are moulting so it could have been that. I am interested in trying some stress bonding tho, neither are fans of the vacuum. Do you think just vacuuming would be enough to stress them a little? Should I put them in their carrier and vacuum around them? I do believe they are fully bonded but it couldn’t hurt to help them realise just how much they need each other. 

Shedding can cause bonding issues in rabbits. Ive noticed when my Bombur sheds, he gets grumpy and tries to mount often. Once hes done shedding, his personalities goes back to normal. My Badger gets loafy and sad during his shed. Thankfully, my Blues personality stays the same through his shed. Its not uncommon for shedding to make a bun a little aggressive and grumpy for a few days/until the shed is over. If fur is flying, it is being pulled out, even if theyre shedding. Their jumping over one another couldve torn/swiped some fur out, but it is still a sign that they werent playing as that means claws were involved


Im not sure what your bunnies consider stressful. If them in their cage while you vacuum stresses them out enough, go for it. If putting them in the carrier then vacuuming stresses them out more, I would do that for a minute or two

Have either of you googled rabbits boxing? Some box with their front paws and teeth, some with their back feet, and some do it by jumping in certain ways

I have to say I respectfully disagree – I find bits of bunny fur gathering under the sideboard where they flop the most so any kind of physical contact can help loosen shed fur. I don’t believe that that means claws were involved at all. It’s something to look out for tho of course. But I can see how this incident was possibly not play. In which case, is a scuffle (or whatever this was/is?) normal? I don’t expect a bonded pair to get on 24/7 but obviously I don’t know when it becomes an issue that I need to interfere with. If all seems well (esp after the stress bonding) can I assume it was a little lovers tiff? It can be hard to judge as I have no prior experience and no basic for comparison! 

I find putting them in the carrier stresses them out quite a bit (they don’t have a cage) so I could try that this evening when my partner is home, we could do with vacuuming anyway! What do I do after that though? Do I just let them back out and then supervise? Or do I need to do something else? Other bonding techniques?

[vanessa]

It sounds like a tiff to me. Those things happen so quickly that I can’t always recognize the moment of the nip that pulled the fur out. I also look at flying fur carefully – Is it loose fur, is it tufts of fur, and does the bunny have other tufts of fur attached that are ready to fall out. During Lancelot and Guin’s first 8 months (that’s how long it took for them to be fully bonded and cuddly), I would often see tufts of Lancelot’s fur, and then inspect him. If he had loose-ish tufts wanting to fall off, I didn’t label it a tiff. If he had no loose tufts, I labeled it a tiff. Just because Guin is so quick. That being said – Neither of my fully bonded pairs have had a tiff that drew fur. So while I read that it is normal for a bonded pair to draw fur, I can’t say I’ve experienced that. Guin might nip at his diaper because it smells different, Avalon might chase Morgana for 2 seconds while his brain goes stir fry crazy with excitement over his food, but no fur. I’d keep an eye on them. To me – tiffs are normal for almost-fully-bonded pairs. This stage lasted for a few months with Guin and Lancelot. I let them figure it out as long as she wasn’t breaking skin.

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By vanessa on 3/02/2017 7:38 AM

It sounds like a tiff to me. Those things happen so quickly that I can’t always recognize the moment of the nip that pulled the fur out. I also look at flying fur carefully – Is it loose fur, is it tufts of fur, and does the bunny have other tufts of fur attached that are ready to fall out. During Lancelot and Guin’s first 8 months (that’s how long it took for them to be fully bonded and cuddly), I would often see tufts of Lancelot’s fur, and then inspect him. If he had loose-ish tufts wanting to fall off, I didn’t label it a tiff. If he had no loose tufts, I labeled it a tiff. Just because Guin is so quick. That being said – Neither of my fully bonded pairs have had a tiff that drew fur. So while I read that it is normal for a bonded pair to draw fur, I can’t say I’ve experienced that. Guin might nip at his diaper because it smells different, Avalon might chase Morgana for 2 seconds while his brain goes stir fry crazy with excitement over his food, but no fur. I’d keep an eye on them. To me – tiffs are normal for almost-fully-bonded pairs. This stage lasted for a few months with Guin and Lancelot. I let them figure it out as long as she wasn’t breaking skin.

Thank you for your input. I feel like things are a bit tense, but I could just be super paranoid! They’ve been okay all day today but will do a stress bonding session shortly and then give them a big plate of veggies to share. Hopefully that will be enough to reset things!

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Wascally Wabbits on 3/01/2017 2:45 PM

Hi Sarah, I have a “bonded” quad (they got into 4 way scuffle a week ago) that I’m currently working on cementing the bond. I try to do a small stress bonding session with them every couple of days. Here is a list of things that I have tried and it seems to work: buns into carrier for 20-30 minute car ride, buns into carrier then go on top of the washer/dryer for 20-30 minutes, buns into a cardboard box (put a nic grid or fence on top to stop them from jumping out) then vacuum around them. With the last one, I find that when they can’t see outside (cardboard box) the vacuum is more effective because they cannot tell how close it is so they’re always on edge. I have also just put them into the cardboard box and dragged it around the house for a bit.

If you think of more stress bonding ideas, let me know! I have also read that with rabbits the first month of moving in you still have to keep an eye out because the bond isn’t cemented yet.

I’ve decided to put them in their carrier which will be stressful enough (for me anyway!) And then I’ll vacuum. Hopefully that does the trick! How are you cementing the bond? My bunnies have been together for 6 and a half weeks, but the first two weeks they were supervised 24/7. 

Another thing that I just thought of – Buttercup loves attention, always has. Whenever she thinks Peanut is getting a little attention, she comes booming over to be pet/make sure she’s not missing out and Peanut tends to clear off. I’m wonderingif jealousy could be causing the tension? 

[sarahthegemini]

Did a little stress bonding session – penned the bunnies in a small corner of the main room (Peanut is too clever to be fooled by the carrier!) and vacuumed for a good ten minutes. Peanut immediately panicked as soon as he realised he was penned in but some plantain softened the blow until the vacuum started. He stayed close to Buttercup. Buttercup wasn’t too scared but there were times when she was huddled behind Peanut so I’m happy about that because I feel like out of the two of them, she’s the one that’s possibly been a bit tense so hopefully this has rekindled the love lol.

[sarahthegemini]

Bunnies were absolutely fine overnight and are okay this morning. Peanut has done his little sniff & dig to Buttercup a few times but that’s pretty normal – he digs at me occasionally too! I think that’s just an annoying habit he has. Nothing malicious in it. I am starting to tell him “no” when he does it in hopes it’ll stop so that he doesn’t annoy his girlfriend so much! But other than that, they are fine. All in all, we are back on track

[vanessa]

Good to hear, all sounds perfectly normal to me 🙂

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