Bonding Journal- Bertha and Pippen

[DanaNM]

Bertha (my 6 year old, spayed female Rhinelander) met “Tristan” (a 4 yr old, neutered male dwarf hotot, I will prob rename him… maybe Rocky…***UPDATED, named him Pippen!) today for the first time at our local HRS. She had been on 3 other dates recently, and none of them struck her fancy. We had this little dude sent down from another shelter (that was overpopulated), and I felt that their first date with Bertha went pretty well! (At least compared to many other dates that Bertha has been on) And boy is he CUTE! 

An experienced bonder from the HRS was in the pen with them for their date, and Bertha was not aggressive towards him, and all he wanted to do was mount her! She would put her head down for grooms, he would mount her head, the HRS bonder would push him so he was in the “correct” orientation. Bertha actually let him mount her for a few seconds calmly (which I was pleasantly surprised about) before running off. He tried to chase her, but the human helper would stop him from chasing her. 

So, he is now home with me in foster care, and I have their two separate pens set up a few inches apart. I can tell he is nervous (he has a sad backstory and had been at the shelter for the past three years after a very neglectful situation), but he definitely likes Bertha, as he gets more relaxed when she is near him. She doesn’t seem particularly fussed that he is her, which is good. He’s slowly eating his veggies and getting used to his new surrounding. Plan is to let him settle in before taking them on a second date with a helper from the rabbit society there to help.  

; border-width: 0px; border-style: solid;” " border-width: 0px; border-style: solid;” “; border-width: 0px; border-style: solid;” ssl.gstatic.com=”” ui=”” v1=”” icons=”” mail=”” ellipsis.png” no-repeat; opacity: 0.3;” width=”20″ height=”8″>

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Here are some photos of the playtime set up and the new guy!

He was thumping all night! It was so silly and cute, and Bertha completely ignored it. He seems much more relaxed this morning, even took a few steps outside his crate, and was happy for his breakfast.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5cW93YsAHUEOFc0YnhJZ0xlVlk?usp=sharing

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Azerane]

He is a little cutie, I’m glad to hear it’s going well

[DanaNM]

Just wanted update that the bunny is doing great! He is such a curious little guy, eating, drinking, and pooping well, and has been venturing out of his crate gradually. Still getting used to my cat, but getting better. 

I have the pens set up so they can sniff each other during play time, but not contact each other. They seem to like each other, or at least are not agitated by the other’s presence! Bertha has been choosing to flop in places where she normally doesn’t but are very close to the new bunny. Photos attached! The new dude gets much braver when Bertha is near, and will groom and eat more when she is near him. Such cuties! 

Neither has been marking along the fence, and their litter box habits have been good, which is also a pleasant surprise. In Bertha’s past bonding adventures, both would mark all along the fence line, and she has tended to abandon her litter box, so seems like the new guy must have made a decent impression on their first date. 

Planning to continue letting them get used to each other for at least another week and start swapping their cages every couple days, and then take them back to the rescue for another date (they offered to let me use their exercise area and help out), or have one of the HRS staff come over to try out my bath tub. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Session 2 (1st real session since first speed date):

After 1 week of letting Pippen (new dude) get settled, and about 8 days of pre-bonding (cage swaps every two days), took both bunnies to the shelter in separate carriers to date in one of the shelter’s pens. 

It went really well! They were super relaxed around each other, no real aggression. They pretty much immediately settled down (it was warm and I’m sure the car ride stressed them out). After they rested for a bit, Pippen would approach Bertha, and then run away, or just go past her. Tails down, ears up. A few nose-to-nose encounters, but no one asked for grooms, ears stayed up, and then Pip would run off. They were together for almost an hour. 

Bertha got a little tired of it by the end, and would lunge at him a little when he came up to her but overall it was really good, and definitely the best second date Bertha has ever been on! Photo shows them lounging, Pippen is under the bridge. He did come out and explore, he wasn’t just hiding the whole time. And then Bertha swooped on his spot! haha

Taking them back tomorrow for another round. The main bonder at the shelter said it would be fine to date them at home since they are so relaxed around each other.  Looks like the pre-bonding helped a lot, because Pippen didn’t try to mount her the whole time. 

I’ll see how tomorrow goes, and will probably start mixing in sessions at home with sessions at the shelter. I just love their set up, and I have a small apartment, so really the bathroom is the only neutral space I have at home. 

Yay!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Session 3: 2.5 hours, excerise pen at rabbit rescue

Dropped of the buns at the rescue for this session (they offered to supervise the date). I stuck around for the first 20 min or so, prettty uneventful. They were more interested in a bunny in the neighboring pen than each other at first, but got over it.

I left, came back about 2 hrs later. Apparently there was a “significant dispute” over who would get to be under this laundry basket in the pen. Ha! Not a fight, there weren’t even any fur tufts, but I guess Bertha decided to claim the basket, and then Pippen started running in circles around the basket, and then Bertha would pop out and lunge out at him as he ran by. Apparently it was quite the sight! ?

They moved the basket to a new spot in the same pen, and that seemed to solve the problem. By the time I picked them up they were doing fine again.

Planning to try my bathroom tomorrow, and not going to include any hidey boxes for them to squabble over!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Session 3: 2.5 hours, excerise pen at rabbit rescue

Dropped of the buns at the rescue for this session (they offered to supervise the date). I stuck around for the first 20 min or so, prettty uneventful. They were more interested in a bunny in the neighboring pen than each other at first, but got over it.

I left, came back about 2 hrs later. Apparently there was a “significant dispute” over who would get to be under this laundry basket in the pen. Ha! Not a fight, there weren’t even any fur tufts, but I guess Bertha decided to claim the basket, and then Pippen started running in circles around the basket, and then Bertha would pop out and lunge out at him as he ran by. Apparently it was quite the sight! ?

They moved the basket to a new spot in the same pen, and that seemed to solve the problem. By the time I picked them up they were doing fine again.

Planning to try my bathroom tomorrow, and not going to include any hidey boxes for them to squabble over!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Vienna Blue in France]

That all sounds great for Bertha and Pippen ! All going in the right direction !

[DanaNM]

Session 4: 1 hour, my bathroom

Started off with them exploring the new space. For the first 10-15 minutes, whenever Pippen would approach Bertha, she would lunge and kinda half nip him (still not even pulling out fur though, and I have seen her really pull out some big tufts in her past bonding adventures). 

After about 15 minutes, they settled down: 

For the rest of the time, they would either rest similar to this, or Pippen would explore, and then Bertha would lunge at him if he approached her. A little bit of grooming themselves, here’s Bertha grooming while Pip rests.  

 Bertha did seem a bit possessive of one corner, and I realized she had chewed the edge during past bonding session, so I will try to cover that spot for the next session. Pippen would move about, but chose to always rest fairly close to Bertha (as opposed to in the opposite corner). About 30 minutes into the session, this happened:

Bertha got up and moved a little closer to Pippen, and flopped.  My heart! 

A little while later they got more active again, with a few more lunges by big B, but nothing that made me even reach for the squirt bottle. Decided to wait until they were settled again and end the session. Ended with them resting again, after about an hour. 

I might try another session tonight, depending on how they are doing. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well, the bonding process had been coming along, they had another 1.5 hour date in my bathroom last night, which went pretty well. Lots of flops by Bertha, Pippen deciding to lay about 1 foot away from her, plus one nose to nose ask for grooming, but when Pippen didn’t groom Bertha lunged at him.

But, going to have to put bonding on hold, because I decided to drop Pip off at the vet this morning. He was off his food and I was worried he might have some early GI stasis, or some other GI discomfort.

He wasn’t too interested in his pellets yesterday, but did eat all of his veggies from breakfast and dinner yesterday (green lettuce, dandelion, and cilantro), plus was munching hay, so I wasn’t too worried. But then this morning he only at a small amount of veggies (1 kale stem, i bite dandelion and a few bites of cilantro), and was sitting pretty hunched. He did come out of the condo briefly and explore a bit, but not his usual self. He did poop a decent amount last night around 9:30 pm, but then not too much the rest of the night. The poops were pretty soft and large size, so maybe he is dealing with some gas or something that didn’t agree with him, vs stasis. The ones from last night were also soft, slightly mucous-y.

Anyway, talked to the shelter coordinator and she agreed it would be best to take him in, esp since I have to work today and can’t be home to monitor or syringe feed him. She said the technicians there are very knowledgeable and will be able to monitor him throughout the day, even if the vet can’t see him right away.

Poor little guy, I hope he’s not too scared at the vet.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Vienna Blue in France]

Oh dear ((( vibes for Pip ))))
It sounds as if he is in good hands and very sensible to have him monitored whilst you’re at work – as you know things can happen so fast with bunnies.
You’ve acted early, so that’s bunny-hooman instinct kicking in.

Do you think he could be stressed out by the bonding so much that he doesn’t eat for a while afterwards…. that’s something you could keep an eye on (if you don’t already, if you do, forgive me) when you start the bonding again.

((( Pippen )))

[DanaNM]

Thank you Vienna, hoping to hear back from the vet soon! I’ve been worrying about him all day. I’m hoping they see him soon, they were really busy today, so they weren’t sure exactly when they would get to examine him, but hopefully the technicians at least are checking on him.

Yes, I am thinking the bonding stress might have had something to do with it, except the first two dates were much more stressful (loud car ride in an old truck, then super foreign pen at the rescue), vs just getting picked up and put in the bathroom. And after the other dates he tended to jump straight in his box for hay! So, who knows. Maybe my bathroom is just a new kind of stress? They have also been remodeling the apartment below me… and have been sawing tile… which is SUPER loud and intermittent for hours. I know it’s been scaring the buns, so that also could have accumulated.

He’s also prob still adjusting to his new environment, slight differences in food, etc. I spoke with the volunteer at the shelter who knows him best, and she said he did have a bout of gas a few year ago that they treated.

I will definitely wait till he is back to normal before resuming sessions, and keep a close eye on him once we start again. I am glad they were doing well in the bathroom, since i was worried that continued stressing of going for car rides and going to the shelter might trigger a problem like this.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

I just called the vet’s office because I still hadn’t heard from them, they said they are still “working on him” and are going to keep him overnight. 

She said he is doing slightly better, but not still not eating or pooping. She didn’t give any details on what they have done, are doing, or think the problem was. Maybe since he is in foster care with me they aren’t giving me as many details? I know they were very busy today, so that also probably has something to do with it, but I wish she had told me a bit more about what they know and what they don’t.  

I am trying not to worry, but I hope they take good care of him tonight.  Hopefully they will have better news in the morning. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Vienna Blue in France]

((((( Pooping vibes Pip ))))

[DanaNM]

Just spoke to the vet, and Pippen is doing much better today! I am so relieved!!!

He’s been eating his carrots (still not into his greens), and pooping again. His temperature is back to normal and his belly feels better. She said the poops are pretty misshapen and have a lot of fur in them, so they are going to keep him for today, and may keep him another night if his poops aren’t quite back to normal. I guess he started eating on his own around 8 pm last night (which she said they were so happy about when they heard him crunching, as they had a rough day with lots of emergencies) and she said he has been very active shredding newspaper and throwing stuff around in his cage (so glad he’s not sitting hunched and terrified).

She said it seemed like a mixture of gas and stasis, maybe a slight fur blockage. He isn’t molting now, so maybe just an accumulation, and then compounded by the change in environment and bonding stress?

I’m so glad I took him right away and they were able to take care of him!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

So glad to hear he is doing better!! That’s great news

[DanaNM]

Well, Pippen is still improving, but they are keeping him another night, as he still isn’t quite back to normal.

The vet (who is super rabbit savvy and has worked with the local rescue for 25 years) said he is is passing some egg/oval shaped poops, and they are wondering if he has a history of that (or any other history of irregular poops). I noticed some during the brief time he was with me, and the shelter said his poops are different sizes sometimes. There is a congenital defect that some rabbits have (that she mentioned 2 of the shelter bunnies have and are being treated for), that could potentially be the root cause, and would likely cause more issues in the future. She said she didn’t want me to worry about it yet, since it is more likely at this point that it was brought on by a new environment, diet, stress, etc. His weight and condition are good, and bunnies with that condition often lose weight. She didn’t give it a name, but I found some info here on the forum and I believe she is referring to megacolon.

From what I’ve read though, megacolon bunnies start having issues much earlier in life, so I’m hoping that’s not the case! Pippen is 4, and as far as I know he’s only had one bout of gas that required treatment (simethicone and a tummy rub did the trick).

The next steps would be to have him checked out again when he is healthy otherwise, but producing the odd shaped poops.

I definitely want to monitor his weight carefully, because I know he was eating alfalfa pellets at the shelter, but I feed timothy pellets. If he does (hopefully not) have this defect, then he would have difficulties absorbing his nutrients, so it was probably very good for him to have a higher calorie pellet. But oh man, Bertha definitely does NOT need alfalfa.

Anyway, probably over thinking this (since the vet specifically said not to worry about it yet)….

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

After 3 nights in the pet hospital after going into GI stasis, little Pip finally gets to come home today! Yesterday they basically gave him run of one of their isolation rooms, and since then he’s been pooping everywhere and devouring his cilantro.

They are giving me some medication to give him through the weekend, plus critical care twice a day to keep things moving along.

Whew! I’m sure he’ll be happy to be back in a familiar place, and Bertha will be happy to have him back. I think she’s missed him, even though they weren’t bonded yet.

The vet tech (who has been AMAZING) spoke with the shelter coordinator who took care of Pip for the past three years, and she said he didn’t have any of the symptoms of that congenital defect other than weird poops, which are to be expected after stasis. So, we will just keep an eye on his poops and weight, but it seems like it was all most likely brought on by the stress of a new environment, bonding, and quite possibly the construction they have been doing in the apartment under me. They were laying tile and using a tile saw, and it was SUPER loud. I closed the windows, but it was obviously stressing the buns out. Thankfully I think they are all done with that, so hopefully he will have a more peaceful place to recover.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Well, it has been about 4 weeks since Pippen went into stasis. There have been a lot of ups and downs, but it seems like we are hopefully on the right track (no more mucous, less gassy episodes). He has been off of all antibiotics for just over a week.

But, his poops are still irregular (sizes and shapes), he is still getting cisipride 3 times a day, and he is still quite thin, even though I’ve been giving him CC on top of him eating normally.

So, the vet is worried he has dysautonomia, which I think might be the same thing as Cow Poop syndrome? But maybe with a different name? He fits the color profile.

So, I am conflicted. There is really no way to know whether he has this disorder, but if he has it, we would expect him to have more frequent stasis episodes, and to start losing muscle mass. It sounds like bunnies with this disorder usually don’t live past 6 years old.

We still don’t know for sure if he has this (and maybe never will). But will he ever even be well enough to bond with Bertha? Is it fair to bond them if he is going to get sick frequently? Do I want to subject her to him most likely passing before her, after she’s already been widowed once already?

And then there is the fact that I would also be taking on responsibility for a bunny with issues that will most likely get worse over time…. But then the thought of sending him to another foster home breaks my heart.

He and Bertha have been living side by side, and they spend a lot of time laying near each other on opposite sides of the fence.

Obviously I need to have a conversation with the vet and the shelter coordinator about his future, but we are basically waiting for him to fully stabilize. I do want what’s best for him, but also what’s best for Bertha.

I would love to hear people’s thoughts on this.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

Messages