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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A A nonrabbit vet did Badger’s neuter

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    • Mikey
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        I am fuming right now. We waited until Dec 1st after trying to schedule last month for Badger’s neuter, because the vets office rabbit certified vet wouldnt be in until Dec 1st. We scheduled his neuter to be done under her, obviously, because i wouldnt want anyone else operating on my bunny if they dont know rabbits very well. Dec first comes along and my baby gets neutered. There was a bit of complication they told us about, that he was in pain and not eating very well. We took him home, and he started to eat almost immediately. Not a lot, but a few munches here and there and after a few hours i was refilling his hay left and right. I checked him over and he had some swelling, but thats to be expected. I checked again yesterday, and theres still quite a bit of swelling on one side. I decided if there was still swelling on the third (today) that i would call the vet and ask for advice and antibiotics (our other two were sent home with antibiotics after their neuter; i was a bit confused why they didnt send any home with Badger, but figured our rabbit certified vet had a reason for not sending him home with any). So i called about 10 minutes ago only to find out OUR VET DID NOT OPERATE ON HIM, ANOTHER VET THEIR DID. A VET WHO IS NOT CERTIFIED TO WORK ON RABBITS, AND DOESNT FEEL COMFORTABLE EVEN GIVING RABBITS ANTIBIOTICS BECAUSE HE IS NOT SURE WHAT ANTIBIOTICS AND DOSES ARE SAFE FOR RABBITS!!!! I started panicing on the phone asking to talk to our normal rabbit vet, “shes not in today. she will be back on monday. [hangs up phone]” She hung up on me. The vet tech hung up on me. I am freaking out. My baby is uncomfortable, his swelling is not as bad as it has been, but its still swelling more than i am comfortable with. A vet who is not certified to work on rabbits, put my baby under and cut him open. A vet who cut my baby open, does not feel comfortable dosing antibiotics. Guys, i am irritated and scared. What should my next step be? Should i ever go back to that place? Weve been going for 1 and a half years and never had a problem before, but this is a serious problem that i cannot ignore


      • Azerane
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          I can’t believe they would do that when you scheduled specifically for your rabbit vet to do it. Do you have any other rabbit savvy vets nearby? If all you need is antibiotics, ring around until you find someone comfortable to at least prescribe that for Mikey. Is he still eating well and acting fairly normally? Or does he seem in pain?

          You could possibly also report the vet clinic if you wanted to. I’m not sure what regulations are in that sort of situation, but when it has risked the life of your boy then I think it’s important to consider reporting them so that they don’t do it again.


        • sarahthegemini
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            That is absolutely outrageous, I totally understand why you are fuming -I would be too! I certainly wouldn’t go back there, they can’t be trusted clearly! Argh, i’m angry for you!


          • Mikey
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              Badger is eating, pooping, peeng, drinking, ect all normally, but you can tell in some positions that he is uncomfortable. Like if hes sitting to poop and his area rubs against the litter, he will squirm to readjust. The only time he seems in pain is about an hour after his pain killers start to ware off/about an hour before his next dose. I googled the pain killers and dosage they gave us, and it is safe for rabbits. The dosage might be a little low for his size, but not so low that its not helping atleast a little bit

              Of the vets i know about ina 4 hour radius (due to calling around last week for Bombur’s UTI), they wont fill antibiotics unless youve been there before, a few are closed on the weekends, and one “exotics vet” is allergic to rabbits so he has no idea how to work with them or anything :/ The only thing i can do is call the vet on Monday and demand to talk to our rabbit certified vet and ask her to fill his antibiotics. I have Bomburs paper work from his neuter several months ago. Bombur and Badger are very similar in weight, so if on a worse case scenario, ill bring that paper in and demand to get the same dosage and antibiotic for Badger


            • Bam
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                None of my two boys had abx after their neuters-it really shouldn’t be necessary and won’t do much for the swelling unless it’s bacterial.

                I think you could up the dosage of Metacam some because there’s quite a span and non-rabbit vets do tend to under-dose it since they don’t know that rabbits metabolize Metacam much more quickly and efficiently than dogs and cats. Metacam can help with the swelling because it’s an anti-inflammatory.
                I would be disappointed too and I think I’d say that to the real rabbit vet on Monday.

                Keep a close eye – I know you will, of course. Monitor his temperature.


              • Mikey
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                  Hes not on Metacam, hes on Buprenorphine .1ml every 12 hours. Badger weighs just around 2lbs. Would the Buprenorphine help with swelling at all? His area isnt swelling so much any more, but its getting very dry and flaky. I know dry is normal, but is flaky? His temp is between normal and low depending on where hes trying to sleep. When he sleeps next to the heater, his temp is fine. When he sleeps away from it, his temp goes a bit lower than average but not by too much

                  Inbetween normal poops, hes having weird jelly poops. Would this be because of the medication, or is it a sign of something else?

                  I wanted antibiotics for him since when his area swells, its very very warm to the touch and a bright red. But when the swelling dies down, its more of a light red and its about body temp. Theres no puss


                • Bam
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                    No, the buprenorphine wouldn’t help with swelling, just with pain. I’d not up the dose on that. Poor little darling.

                    I think I’d put some neosporin on the remainder of the swelling. Some inflammation is normal and swelling + warmth + redness are just the classic signs of local inflammation, not of infection. Pus, foul smell, seepage and a fever are signs of infection and that would of course have to be seen to more urgently.

                    The jelly poop is not nice though. are there any round (or oblong, in any case formed) poops at all? If there are, I’d contribute the jelly poop to the meds and the general ordeal of anesthesia and surgery, since he is eating and drinking and peeing. A bunny with true diarrhea is not likely to be eating, but the best way to differentiate between minor, temporary dysbiosis and true diarrhea is by whether there are formed poops as well as loose stools.


                  • Mikey
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                      I didnt think so given that google doesnt seem to like it for bunnies that much. Google just noted that for his weight, he might be getting a bit less than he should dose wise

                      Ah ok. My other two didnt have any of this so my mind instantly went to the worst case scenario. Thank you for the advice and for letting me know. Next time he is awake, ill add a bit of neosporin to the swollen area

                      He has normal poops, jelly poops, and poops that look like cecals but arnt. Some are round, others are very small and squishy, and the jelly is just semi clear jelly. Should his poops return to normal in a few days if its because of the meds and anesthesia?


                    • Bam
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                        i wasn’t thinking you’d up the dose, I just wanted to clarify because I said Metacam often can be up-ed because it’s so frequently underdosed and you can give up to 1,5 ml per kg safely if needed.

                        Bupenorphrine is bunny safe, but many vets seem to prefer Metacam.

                        His poops should return to normal once he’s eating like he should, esp hay, and he’s off the bupenorphine. But sometimes getting a bunny tum back in order can take more than a week, and that’s still normal.


                      • Mikey
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                          Ah ok Thank you for all of the advice and help! You guys here are always so awesome


                        • Bam
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                            Sending him so many recovery-vibes ((((((Badger))))))


                          • Mikey
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                              His temp has gone up a bit since earlier. Its about 102F, which i know is in the normal range, but near the higher end. At what temp should i worry about a fever?


                            • jerseygirl
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                                104F is somewhat concerning, 105F is vet time.
                                Healing {{{Vibes}}} for Badger

                                Have you tried a warm compress on any swelling?


                              • Mikey
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                                  Ok, thank you for info about the temperatures. His temp is staying steady at about 102F so i wont worry about it

                                  Ive tried a heating pad set to low for a few hours and he avoided it. I tried a slightly colder than room temp small towel and he leaned on that for a while but otherwise didnt care for it. He did let me add neosporin a little bit ago, so i will check in another hour or so to see how well thats helping


                                • LBJ10
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                                    I don’t think anything would really happen if you complained. I mean, you would be letting them know you are unhappy with their services and they may or may not change their practices. Don’t get me wrong, I would be angry too. Very angry. I think vet offices hold the right to assign a different vet to an appointment if the one originally scheduled for it is unexpectedly unavailable. It’s the same with human doctors, dentists, etc. It’s common courtesy to inform the patient that another doctor will be doing the appointment and to give them the option to reschedule to who they really wanted. I’m not saying you shouldn’t complain and make your concerns known. I’m just saying that it might not get you very far, unfortunately.

                                    All you can do now is make sure Badger is doing OK. It sounds like you’re doing that. As long as he’s eating and pooping, he should be OK until Monday. I don’t know if he will let you, but a cool compress on his area might help with the swelling. I would be careful about doing it too much though because it might dry the area out if the compress is moist. Bam made a good suggestion with the Neosporin. Just make sure it’s the plain kind. If he’s still having issues by Monday, then definitely talk to your regular vet to adjust his medication. Once he is through this, you’ll have to decide whether or not you want to continue to do business at this location.


                                  • Q8bunny
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                                      Crikey, that’s outrageous, Mikey!

                                      Chewie didn’t get antibiotics either, and some swelling is normal even if it’s uneven (like, just on one side).

                                      Clean with concentrated chamomile tea, Neosporin regularly, and keep an eye on the usual (poops, wees, noms). If his temp has stabilized, chances are he’s doing ok, even if he is in a bit more pain than he should be.

                                      Poor little guy… I can’t believe the clinic wouldn’t tell you to give you the option to reschedule and that the tech just hung up on you so abruptly! Grrr…

                                      (((Badger)))


                                    • SeeShmemilyPlay
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                                        I wouldn’t go back there if there isn’t another rabbit savvy vet nearby. If it’s your only option, I’d speak with your vet immediately and ensure that she’s the only one to work with your buns in the future. I would be furious. At least Badger is eating and pooping with no problems!


                                      • Bam
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                                          How is he doing now?


                                        • Mikey
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                                            @ LBJ
                                            I dont even want to call back unless needed since the vet tech hung up on me. I would complain, but i doubt they would listen, or really care

                                            We had an amazing rabbit vet there before. Whenever she would go on holiday, she would call everyone who scheduled their exotics under her to let them know, and she would never be gone for more than a week at a time. If something was very wrong with your pet, but you were waiting on test results, she would give you her email and cell phone number to keep her updated, send her pictures if something got worse, and get personal advice about your pets well being after hours, or while she was on her day off. But she moved a few months ago, and the vets office got a new rabbit vet. She specializes in small animals, and specializes further in brain problems and cancers in all animals. Shes never had an animal die on the table, and does surgeries regularly. Shes been working with and working on exotic animals for about 15+ years, i believe her paper said. Shes very nice to our bunnies, and when they go in for checks, shes always very gentle and calm, even when Bombur is thrashing around

                                            The vet who did our surgery has lost animals on the table during surgeries. A few times recorded was because he used too much or too little anesthesia. He has a 95 percent success rate during surgeries. He is only certified to work on dogs and cats, and says he doesnt feel comfortable working with other animals at all, and definitely doesnt feel comfortable filling prescriptions for animals other than cats and dogs. This is why im upset. Its not like they gave us one of the better vets with a much higher success rate, a vet who has assisted during a rabbits neuter or rabbits check ups, or atleast a vet who feels comfortable prescribing medications to rabbits. Instead, they decided to have the worst possible vet there do the surgery, and didnt even tell us until i called back two days after to ask about the ongoing swelling. There is another vet a bit down the road from there, but the hours are terrible (theyre only open 9 hours a day). We plan on setting up an appointment to meet the vet early next year, after Badger recovers and the snow isnt so heavy on the roads. If the vet there doesnt work out, ill keep looking for vets around the area. We will stick to our current vet for checks and medications, but we wont be going back for future surgeries at all

                                            Sorry for the wall of text. Ijust wanted to get more information our now that ive calmed down, Badger is doing better, and my boyfriend and i have discussed our future options


                                          • Mikey
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                                              @Q8bunny

                                              @Bam

                                              His temp has been the same now for 24 hours, so im no longer worried about his temp. Before he would go between warm and cold so i was a bit nervous, but that seems all fixed now When i woke up, i took a peak at him and couldnt see either sack. He was partially shaved, but his leg fur is still crazy fluffy. But, since i cant see either one now, im assuming swelling is doing a lot better. I have to move the fur around to even get a decent peak at the one side that was swollen. I will be continueing with neosprin on it every several hours as it really helped him out with the itchy feeling of the dry skin. I will try chamomile tea if i see it swell up again

                                              Other than that, hes doing really good today! Most of his poops are normal today, instead of jelly or squishy so im very happy about that. Hes drinking a bit less than normal since last night, but it couldve been that he was very tired (i checked up on him a few times throughout the night to find him completely sprawled in his little fleece bed, sleeping with his eyes closed, something he hasnt done since he was a baby lol). Im feeling a lot better about everything now 


                                              @SeeShmemilyPlay

                                              We decided that we wont be going back for surgeries, but we will stick to our current vet for check ups and medications, since she is very good with the bunnies and i dont feel it was her choice to have another vet do the surgery. But for future surgeries, we will be looking around and meeting different vets in the area that we find and will hopefully find one we trust for surgeries in the future. Badger was our last bun to be neutered, so hopefully none of the three will need surgeries any time soon, so we will have some time


                                            • sarahthegemini
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                                                I’m glad to hear he’s doing much better Mikey! It is surprising how quickly they can bounce back isn’t it (my Butter bean is already back to her old self!)


                                              • Bam
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                                                  So glad to hear he’s doing so much better!!!


                                                • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                    I’m also glad to hear Badger is doing much better.

                                                    What a terrible situation. Thankfully, could have been much worse. I can understand why you are so upset.


                                                  • Hex
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                                                      Mikey, where are you from? 

                                                      I’m curious because there should be malpractice laws in place, to some extent. I can’t believe this; I’m livid on your behalf! You specifically asked for an exotic vet who has experience and know-how with rabbits. You did not consent to putting your rabbit in the care of someone who has no education and no experience. The fact that the vet doesn’t even feel comfortable prescribing antibiotics and only has a 95% success rate is terrifying.

                                                      File complaints. Write reviews on their business page(s), all of them. If there is a public board in your area, notify the community not to take their rabbits to that vet clinic. Any rescues, or humane societies, should be notified of this malpractice. Considering you received the equivalent of a shrug when you called back to ask questions, I would be sure everyone knew how careless–dangerous–this vet clinic has proven to be. 

                                                      I find it incredibly aggravating that the “popular opinion” regarding rabbits is that their health is trivial and their lives don’t matter. This is even worse when a vet clinic doesn’t take the proper care or considerations for their patients.

                                                      I understand that they may be the only vet nearby, however, they clearly haven’t taken the appropriate steps to be sure your rabbit was kept safe. This could have been a very devastating story…


                                                    • Mikey
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                                                        @Hex
                                                        IL, USA
                                                        Im not 100 percent sure what laws are in place here regarding vets and surgeries, but if anything starts to look bad or we hit an emergency from what happened, we will talk to a lawyer to get advice and move on from there. I also dont want to write any reviews, yet, in case it does turn out well or even if it does take a turn for the worse. Rather, i did a small review on their website [basically stating that the office and vet techs lack communication when it comes to phone calls (they also told us not to feed Badger before his surgery; fed him anyway because we all know rabbits dont need to stop eating before being neutered)]. I might add another review after Badger is fully healed so people are aware of what happened on a basic level, and can take caution should they go to the same vets office with an exotic

                                                        I agree completely. Thats why i loved our old vet; she would go out of her way, even on days off to help our bunnies. Two of our buns are disabled, Badger being one of them. The new vet is also very nice, but doesnt work often (3 times a week, as i learned today when i tried to call again). Shes very good with bunnies, has one of her own, and is very gentle. When my Bombur tried to box her, just calmly talked to him and pet him lightly until he realized she wasnt a threat [Bombur hates strangers, and dislikes the vets when dogs are near]. The other vet, the one who did the surgery, just isnt a good vet in general

                                                        Thankfully, i found another down the road a bit so we plan on meeting them early next year after the roads are better and the bun has healed. We will stick with our current vet for check ups and medications for the buns (because she is good with them and has worked on them for several years), but should any of my three need surgery again, we will be going somewhere else


                                                      • Mikey
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                                                          Update for the day:

                                                          One side is starting to turn purple. Is that from the bruising, or is it something more? Theres also a bit of crust coming off of the incision; is that dried pus, or is it from the neosporin mixing with some hay dust?

                                                          I tried to call the vet a bit ago to ask about everything, and it turns out that she doesnt actually work today, but tomorrow instead 

                                                          EDIT:

                                                          After a little more googling and searching around, i found a thread here on BinkyBunny from a few years ago! The user explains that one of their rabbits sacks was purple for a while after the bunnys neuter, but eventually returned to normal color after shrinking. I also found another rabbit based forum where someone was asking about little crusties near the rabbits incision, and one of the users there explained that sometimes the surgical glue will do that, and its nothing to worry about unless we start to see or notice liquid or chunks instead of small crusties. Im feeling better again about Badger after reading these again


                                                        • Hex
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                                                            I was able to find this paper regarding vet malpractice in Illinois. It’s a start, should you decide to take action.

                                                            When Animal Owners Attack: Veterinary Malpractice in Illinois

                                                            While litigation may be a bit much, considering your rabbit seems to be recovering, it’s still a good idea to investigate into this further. I’m not impressed to hear that they told you not to feed your rabbit prior to surgery. I can’t imagine the drastic effect this would have on someone who’s extremely new to rabbits. You would expect the advice coming from a veterinary clinic to be sound, regardless of the animal you bring to them. Had a vet given such poor advice regarding a cat or dog, people wouldn’t stand for it. If they want to claim they can treat exotic animals, they should be able to give me accurate information. All it takes is a Google search, there’s no excuse for the lack of knowledge.

                                                            I’d definitely mention this to your main, trustworthy vet once she’s back. Stress to her that you no longer feel comfortable bringing your rabbits there for surgery, and also point out the potentially life-threatening advice that was given to you prior to surgery.

                                                            I’ve been to 3 different vet clinics until I found one I liked, and that handled my bun safely. I understand how frustrating and difficult this is. I’m sorry this happened to you and your little baby. 

                                                            The purple colour may come from bruising, but it could also be that the cauterization wasn’t entirely complete. Here’s a page with a video that shows what to expect:

                                                            Neuter Aftercare


                                                          • Mikey
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                                                              Thank you for the link. I saved it should we decide we need it

                                                              I agree completely about the vet techs telling us not to feed him before his surgery. I dont assume the vet techs know too much about rabbits (about 3 of the 12 ive met and talked to there have rabbits, and offered us advice when we first got ours) so they figured a bun neuter is the same as any other animal they take in. This is also why i encourage people to research the pet that they want to the extreme before actually getting said animal, though, because as much as vet techs should know about the animals their office takes in/animals they assist, not all of them actually will and in some places, those vet techs dont legally need to know if they dont actually handle the animal. They did tell us as soon as we got in that if we fasted him, we would have to take him home immediately with meds for GI Stasis and gas drops. They should have corrected it over the phone, of course, but for our situation it wasnt a big deal because we already knew to keep him eating

                                                              We do plan on telling our main vet whenever we can get ahold of her. I have no doubt she would understand why we wouldnt feel so comfortable going back for surgeries there

                                                              Yikes, going through three sounds crazy! Weve got 2 rabbit vets within an hours drive, counting this one. Theres more a bit farther out we can try should we feel the need to after meeting the closer one

                                                              Thankfully for Badger, his sacks are not nearly as purple as the bun’s in the video. Hes got a light fade dark purple spot on the side of one, but thats it. He does squirm if i lightly touch it (to feel for warmth) but he doesnt get upset at all if i touch it with neosporin. The rest of the skin is his normal pink skin color Thank you for the link!


                                                            • LBJ10
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                                                                The vet techs at my vet know. The receptionist, on the other hand doesn’t…


                                                              • Mikey
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                                                                  Posted By LBJ10 on 12/05/2016 9:22 PM

                                                                  The vet techs at my vet know. The receptionist, on the other hand doesn’t…

                                                                  At my vets office, not all of the vet techs know about bunnies, and the receptionists dont know much of anything about animals. But the receptionists dont pretend to know, they always go and get a vet tech or a vet to talk to patients/the pet parents


                                                                • Emmsy
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                                                                    I would report that place.. That’s a terrible thing that should NEVER happen regardless if your bun got better or not. You don’t want that to happen to other bunnies and owners.


                                                                  • Bam
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                                                                      Hex, thank you for the link! I think many bunny parents will find it very useful. Surgery and buns is always a scary combination.

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                                                                  Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A A nonrabbit vet did Badger’s neuter