My bonding plan, step by step!

[sarahthegemini]

Hi guys, apologies for another thread on this issue but this one is different! I’ve been reading a lot about bonding and I’d just like some input as to how my bonding plan sounds:

1.Keep them separated until 2 ish weeks after Peanut’s neutering surgery (he’s being neutered a week and a half after Buttercup)

2.Place play pen in bedroom *netural area*

3.Use play pen mat that is currently in Peanut’s play area but disinfect first to remove scent

4.Use brand new litter tray so neither one has their scent on it, fill with carefresh and plenty of hay

5.Use brand new water bottles so neither has their scent on it

6. Carry them in vet carrier one at a time upstairs, with different towel as base (they do not like being picked up! and I’d rather not risk it on the stairs)

7.Sit in the pen with them to ‘supervise’ and reassure them

8.Have treats on hand, literally. Possibly even feed them their pellets out of each hand

If all goes well, keep them in there completely supervised for the next few hours, or the whole day if I start in the morning.

Now I’ve read that once together, they shouldn’t be separated again (if this isn’t the case I can put them back in their individual penned area) Otherwise, I will disinfect Peanut’s hutch completely as that will be the one the buns share, to remove scents. I will place the ‘neutral’ litter tray and water bottles in there. I will wash their hay balls thoroughly and put them in the hutch. I will dispose of the wooden cottage that is currently in the hutch as it has mostly Peanut’s scent on it – it needs replacing with something slightly bigger anyway.

Does this all sound like I’m on the right track? I’m thinking if they appear to be doing well, I could let them back downstairs in the ime diet vicinity of the neutralised hutch and see if they both go in. If so, I can sleep downstairs to keep an eye (or ear…) on them. 

[DanaNM]

Hi there, Can you clarify as to whether you are going for the “marathon method” or the traditional method, where you start with short sessions and work up to longer sessions?

Now, the marathon method is not for the weak at heart. Most people only resort to that if short sessions are not making progress. You will basically need to supervise them constantly….. like 24/7, potentially for days and days. For a first time bonding I would try short sessions first. There is tons of info about it in this forum and house rabbit sites.

In either case, I have a few comments.

Some say it can take as long as a month for hormones to calm down after neutering (I think), so might want to wait a bit longer.

I would start with nothing in the pen. No litter box, no water, no hay. They can get territorial over “stuff”. Then once they start doing well together, and the “good” behaviors are really cemented, then you can slowly change the area. Usually people don’t add a litter box until both bunnies are doing well together and you are doing long sessions. Honestly they are going to forget all their box habits anyway during bonding….

Second, many people argue against your intervention with treats and sitting in the pen. You want to be present to help stop any fights, but really they need to sort out their dominance hierarchy, and you being present can actually slow things down.

You might also want to use a new play mat or flooring. Even if clean Peanut will prob still recognize it.

Also, a really important thing is to not change what is working too fast. You can undo progress by moving to new areas too fast. You kind of need to be ready for the long game with bonding.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Mikey]

1. Males take about six weeks to flush hormones and females take about six months to flush hormones. If i remember right, one of yours is a little lady so youll have to wait a few months after her spay to bond, rather than a few weeks  The average for females hormones to drain that ive seen seems to be around 3 months total, with one month being the shortest and six months being the longest it takes. Note that even if it seems all of her hormones are drained, if you put her with your male and she starts acting out, youll want to separate them and put bonding off another month. Some rabbits also go through a post spay/neuter craze where their hormones shifting causes them to act aggressively. Youll have to watch out for that

2. Neutral is good! 

3. Be careful of that. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesnt. It depends how long its been Peanuts and how marked it is. Washing doesnt always work

4, 5, 6. Good!

7. That answered one of my questions i had for 2, good idea It also helps you bond with them when you are inside of it rather than watching them bond from the outside of the pen

8. Also very good! Boyfriend and i used pellets and greens whenever they would have a session without fighting

Final note, dont move too fast. Just because they are good for 20 minutes one day, does not mean they will do good after 20 minutes the next day. Go at their pace and try not to be overly excited about moving forward if they have a day or two of success, wait for multiple days of success in a row before moving on

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By DanaNM on 11/29/2016 1:18 PM

Hi there, Can you clarify as to whether you are going for the “marathon method” or the traditional method, where you start with short sessions and work up to longer sessions?

Now, the marathon method is not for the weak at heart. Most people only resort to that if short sessions are not making progress. You will basically need to supervise them constantly….. like 24/7, potentially for days and days. For a first time bonding I would try short sessions first. There is tons of info about it in this forum and house rabbit sites.

In either case, I have a few comments.

Some say it can take as long as a month for hormones to calm down after neutering (I think), so might want to wait a bit longer.

I would start with nothing in the pen. No litter box, no water, no hay. They can get territorial over “stuff”. Then once they start doing well together, and the “good” behaviors are really cemented, then you can slowly change the area. Usually people don’t add a litter box until both bunnies are doing well together and you are doing long sessions. Honestly they are going to forget all their box habits anyway during bonding….

Second, many people argue against your intervention with treats and sitting in the pen. You want to be present to help stop any fights, but really they need to sort out their dominance hierarchy, and you being present can actually slow things down.

You might also want to use a new play mat or flooring. Even if clean Peanut will prob still recognize it.

Also, a really important thing is to not change what is working too fast. You can undo progress by moving to new areas too fast. You kind of need to be ready for the long game with bonding.

Hmm I guess marathon method is what I had in mind – primarily because I don’t work so I do have the time to do it for hours at a time but also I read that the more you re-separate, you have to sort of start over at each introduction. Is that not right? I was a little unsure about the wait time after neutering – some say 2 weeks, some say upto 6! I’ll admit I’m a little eager but if waiting longer to introduce will yield better results I can be patient…

So it’s best to just have an empty pen, and then add litter box and hay etc later. And be ready with vinegar to clean up any mishaps! Speaking of flooring, I’ve got a yoga mat that I’ve (and the bunnies!) have never stepped foot on so I could use that instead of Peanut’s current mat. Good thinking about him still potentially recognizing it, I had only really thought of it scent wise but he has spent many hours on here so he could very well spot that it’s his by sight.

Should I just sit by/outside the pen then? Again, I’ve read contradictory things about almost every aspect so it’s really difficult to gage what would be best. This is all quite overwhelming to me, there’s so much information and I’m just anxious to get everything right. 

[DanaNM]

Hi again, 

Yes, it can be overwhelming! But try not to be overwhelmed! You seem like you are off to a very good start! Every bunny pair is different, which is why there is so much info! It’s really about trying new things when one thing isn’t working and being patient with yourself and the bunnies. 

I think that most people find that they make progress with short sessions at first, even if the bunnies are separated. I also think it is less stressful in general to start with short sessions.  If it seems like progress gets reversed every time you separate them, then you might try longer sessions, assuming they are getting along well by the end of the session. I think that planning to do the marathon method from the get-go could be very stressful! Then if you need to separate them you will feel bad about it! 

Reading one of your other posts, it looks like your buns already have some positive interactions as a base, even when they go back to separate enclosures, so I think that you will be fine. As Mikey mentioned, you should prob wait longer after their spay/neuter. 

I’ve done both the marathon and the traditional method. I actually think the marathon method might have caused me to rush things a little bit, and that bond ended up failing (I think you commented on my post about it). Now, when I bonded using the traditional method, it took 3 months for them to bond, but after that they were MADLY in love. 

It is nice that you work from home, so you have options!  And yes, you are correct in that you want to be nearby, but not actually in the pen. If scuffling breaks out, try to break it up using a loud noise (vacuum cleaner), or a spray bottle. If you do need to physically break it up, I have worn oven mits on my hands! You want to stop the fighting but not actually separate them until they are on good terms again (end on a good note). 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Mikey on 11/29/2016 1:47 PM

1. Males take about six weeks to flush hormones and females take about six months to flush hormones. If i remember right, one of yours is a little lady so youll have to wait a few months after her spay to bond, rather than a few weeks  The average for females hormones to drain that ive seen seems to be around 3 months total, with one month being the shortest and six months being the longest it takes. Note that even if it seems all of her hormones are drained, if you put her with your male and she starts acting out, youll want to separate them and put bonding off another month. Some rabbits also go through a post spay/neuter craze where their hormones shifting causes them to act aggressively. Youll have to watch out for that

2. Neutral is good! 

3. Be careful of that. Sometimes that works, sometimes that doesnt. It depends how long its been Peanuts and how marked it is. Washing doesnt always work

4, 5, 6. Good!

7. That answered one of my questions i had for 2, good idea It also helps you bond with them when you are inside of it rather than watching them bond from the outside of the pen

8. Also very good! Boyfriend and i used pellets and greens whenever they would have a session without fighting

Final note, dont move too fast. Just because they are good for 20 minutes one day, does not mean they will do good after 20 minutes the next day. Go at their pace and try not to be overly excited about moving forward if they have a day or two of success, wait for multiple days of success in a row before moving on

You’re right, one of mine is a little lady I had no idea it could take months, yikes! Is it still crucial to wait if no aggressive behaviour was observed prior to separation? They were only separated a few days ago and were still snuggling as normal until I was the mean lady that split them up!

I’m gunna opt for a yoga mat rather than use Peanut’s mat so neither of their scent will be on it Plus it’ll be easy to quickly wipe up any urine mishaps.

For my next few steps, you and Dana both have different thoughts so I’m even more confused haha! I guess every situation is different and there is no ‘one size fits all’ I’m so nervous!

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By DanaNM on 11/29/2016 2:08 PM

Hi again, 

Yes, it can be overwhelming! But try not to be overwhelmed! You seem like you are off to a very good start! Every bunny pair is different, which is why there is so much info! It’s really about trying new things when one thing isn’t working and being patient with yourself and the bunnies. 

I think that most people find that they make progress with short sessions at first, even if the bunnies are separated. I also think it is less stressful in general to start with short sessions.  If it seems like progress gets reversed every time you separate them, then you might try longer sessions, assuming they are getting along well by the end of the session. I think that planning to do the marathon method from the get-go could be very stressful! Then if you need to separate them you will feel bad about it! 

Reading one of your other posts, it looks like your buns already have some positive interactions as a base, even when they go back to separate enclosures, so I think that you will be fine. As Mikey mentioned, you should prob wait longer after their spay/neuter. 

I’ve done both the marathon and the traditional method. I actually think the marathon method might have caused me to rush things a little bit, and that bond ended up failing (I think you commented on my post about it). Now, when I bonded using the traditional method, it took 3 months for them to bond, but after that they were MADLY in love. 

It is nice that you work from home, so you have options!  And yes, you are correct in that you want to be nearby, but not actually in the pen. If scuffling breaks out, try to break it up using a loud noise (vacuum cleaner), or a spray bottle. If you do need to physically break it up, I have worn oven mits on my hands! You want to stop the fighting but not actually separate them until they are on good terms again (end on a good note). 

I am easily overwhelmed haha! I do feel so unprepared for this, I thought I had done my research prior to getting my bunnies but I was led to believe that once they’d had surgery they could just go back as normal. Oh how wrong! This is a big situation to overcome. Don’t get me wrong I do NOT regret getting my bunnies for one second, I just wish I was more mentally prepared. I keep researching and researching and ending up more confused but as you said, I guess it’s about trying one thing and if it doesn’t work, try something else.

I’ll definitely plan to start with shorter sessions though, it might save a few headaches lol but if they are getting on so well, should I still separate them? End on a good note I suppose? 

I’ll sit on the bed then and take a saucepan up with me to bang on or something if I need to stop them. Oven mits, genius! And that answers my query about ending on a good note but if they have started fighting,  and I stop them, how do I ensure the session ends well?

[Gina.Jenny]

Marathon bonding can work, if you have the patience to stick it out, and the bunnies get on OK. Podge came on a visit to see how he and Gina got on, he was pretty relaxed, so he was left with me to see how things went. I opted for marathon bonding from the start, it took four days, and they have been happily bonded for 8 months. I would consider maybe waiting a month after Buttercup’s spay, then unless she has a bad post spay hormone craze, see how they are together? Every bun pair is different though, and there can be good reasons for waiting less time or more time. Jenny was bonded to Pippi almost straight after her spay, as she was struggling with hypothermia and needed to snuggle into Pippi to keep warm, and Pippi had just lost his bonded friend. They bonded pretty much instantly. When Pippi and Rusty (two boys) were altered, I kept them apart overnight, but Pippi was so stressed by being kept away from Rusty that I rang the vets first thing in the morning, and was advised to put them back together, and supervise closely, which I did.

Like you say, there is no ‘one size’ fits all.

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Gina.Jenny on 11/29/2016 2:44 PM

Marathon bonding can work, if you have the patience to stick it out, and the bunnies get on OK. Podge came on a visit to see how he and Gina got on, he was pretty relaxed, so he was left with me to see how things went. I opted for marathon bonding from the start, it took four days, and they have been happily bonded for 8 months. I would wait a month after Buttercup’s spay, then unless she has a bad post spay hormone craze, see how they are together? Every bun pair is different though, and there can be good reasons for waiting less time or more time. Jenny was bonded to Pippi almost straight after her spay, as she was struggling with hypothermia and needed to snuggle into Pippi to keep warm, and Pippi had just lost his bonded friend. They bonded pretty much instantly.

Thanks for your input Gina.Jenny! When you say it took 4 days, I assume you mean 4 days straight with no separation? So essentially 4 days of constant supervision?

It’s reassuring to hear buns can be bonded so soon after a spay. Sorry to hear about Jenny’s hypothermia – I hope that’s all sorted  now?

I think I’ll wait around 3 – 4 weeks after Peanut’s neutering to try the first bond, as that will be about a month after Peanut’s surgery (obviously lol) and just over a month after Buttercup’s surgery. I suppose if I sense anything or notice bad body language I can separate and try again at a later date. One thing I’m curious about, people say bunnies remember fights but does that also mean they’ll remember previous good history together? Specifically, will my buns remember that they used to snuggle up to eachother and were brought up together?

[Mikey]

True that it is not a one size fits all type of thing My trio worked better with me and/or my boyfriend sitting in with them. We were at arms length to stop anything as soon as it started, and there to supervise and give treats at the end of good sessions. If tension was clearly high and it was only a matter of time until someone lashed out, we would squish them side by side and pet them all until they chattered. Otherwise, we just sat there and watched. Bonding my trio only took about a month or two total, not counting prebonding and moving buns around from cage to cage to share scents. What works for us may not always work for others Things to always watch out for and stop are biting, fur pulling, lunging, and chasing. Nipping and mounting are ok, but remove the mounting bunny after about 10 to 15 seconds to avoid the bottom bun from getting irritated or stressed. Loud noises and spray bottles never worked for my bunnies at all. I had to physically move them, or throw a toy in their way to grab their attention

I would still keep your buns separated but close for atleast a month after their spay and neuter to make sure that they heal correctly and dont irritate the wounds to avoid infection. If no one goes through a post spay/neuter craze, then you can try to put them together for a bit and see how that goes. If it doesnt go to well, give it another week or two. If it goes well, continue on

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Mikey on 11/29/2016 3:12 PM

True that it is not a one size fits all type of thing My trio worked better with me and/or my boyfriend sitting in with them. We were at arms length to stop anything as soon as it started, and there to supervise and give treats at the end of good sessions. If tension was clearly high and it was only a matter of time until someone lashed out, we would squish them side by side and pet them all until they chattered. Otherwise, we just sat there and watched. Bonding my trio only took about a month or two total, not counting prebonding and moving buns around from cage to cage to share scents. What works for us may not always work for others Things to always watch out for and stop are biting, fur pulling, lunging, and chasing. Nipping and mounting are ok, but remove the mounting bunny after about 10 to 15 seconds to avoid the bottom bun from getting irritated or stressed. Loud noises and spray bottles never worked for my bunnies at all. I had to physically move them, or throw a toy in their way to grab their attention

I would still keep your buns separated but close for atleast a month after their spay and neuter to make sure that they heal correctly and dont irritate the wounds to avoid infection. If no one goes through a post spay/neuter craze, then you can try to put them together for a bit and see how that goes. If it doesnt go to well, give it another week or two. If it goes well, continue on

Thank you. I would prefer to sit in with them because they are both really comfortable around me (especially Buttercup)  and I thought my presence could reassure them. Peanut is a little more timid and would probably appreciate any extra reassurance! If he’s ever startled by something  (or if my bf has scared him – Peanut isn’t comfortable around him yet) I always approach Peanut slowly and pet him and he seems to like this. I’ll just try not to interfere too much. Of course if I can see that me being there is hindering the process, I’ll have to try the other option!

It’s interesting that you mention swapping scents – that’s something I’m trying at the moment. I’m putting a little of each other’s soiled litter in each other’s litter trays every day after i clean them out and I’m swapping their chew toys over regularly from one to the other. Does that sound okay? I also pet one and then immediately pet the other afterwards. I’ve also started hand feeding them their breakfast pellets (mainly to reinforce the bond I have with them) but so that they will have the scent of each other on my hands too when they’re eating.

[Gina.Jenny]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 11/29/2016 3:06 PM

Thanks for your input Gina.Jenny! When you say it took 4 days, I assume you mean 4 days straight with no separation? So essentially 4 days of constant supervision?

It’s reassuring to hear buns can be bonded so soon after a spay. Sorry to hear about Jenny’s hypothermia – I hope that’s all sorted  now?

I think I’ll wait around 3 – 4 weeks after Peanut’s neutering to try the first bond, as that will be about a month after Peanut’s surgery (obviously lol) and just over a month after Buttercup’s surgery. I suppose if I sense anything or notice bad body language I can separate and try again at a later date. One thing I’m curious about, people say bunnies remember fights but does that also mean they’ll remember previous good history together? Specifically, will my buns remember that they used to snuggle up to eachother and were brought up together?

Yep, 4 days of being together round the clock, carrying them both with me to the bathroom, kitchen etc and sleeping beside them overnight. Bonding Jenny so soon post spay was only OK as Pippi was a gentlebun, and didn’t make any attempts to mount Jenny. If he had, I would had separated them, as a girl takes time to heal inside, and he did a far better job of keeping her warm than I was able to do. Jenny and Pippi recently had to be separated as she went through a moult that left her really moody, and I then spent a day rebonding, and they are back to being snuggly again

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Gina.Jenny on 11/30/2016 1:16 AM

Posted By sarahthegemini on 11/29/2016 3:06 PM

Thanks for your input Gina.Jenny! When you say it took 4 days, I assume you mean 4 days straight with no separation? So essentially 4 days of constant supervision?

It’s reassuring to hear buns can be bonded so soon after a spay. Sorry to hear about Jenny’s hypothermia – I hope that’s all sorted  now?

I think I’ll wait around 3 – 4 weeks after Peanut’s neutering to try the first bond, as that will be about a month after Peanut’s surgery (obviously lol) and just over a month after Buttercup’s surgery. I suppose if I sense anything or notice bad body language I can separate and try again at a later date. One thing I’m curious about, people say bunnies remember fights but does that also mean they’ll remember previous good history together? Specifically, will my buns remember that they used to snuggle up to eachother and were brought up together?

Yep, 4 days of being together round the clock, carrying them both with me to the bathroom, kitchen etc and sleeping beside them overnight. Bonding Jenny so soon post spay was only OK as Pippi was a gentlebun, and didn’t make any attempts to mount Jenny. If he had, I would had separated them, as a girl takes time to heal inside, and he did a far better job of keeping her warm than I was able to do. Jenny and Pippi recently had to be separated as she went through a moult that left her really moody, and I then spent a day rebonding, and they are back to being snuggly again

That sounds like quite the commitment! I’ll start early morning and see how it goes, I’m more than prepared to put the time and effort in, only trouble is I have health issues so really would need my partner to be here as a second set of eyes for when I’m having to do treatment etc. But I’m sure we can arrange something.

I’m just so anxious to start because they were so used to free roaming the house (well, they had access to ge entire house but they only stuck to the downstairs) Our house is very small so they’ve only got half the space they had before as we’ve partitioned the living room and it’s not enough space for them to truly run around like lunatics. I’m preparing myself for it to be a long process but hoping inside that it’s not! The sooner we can go back to the “normal routine” the better.

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