Baby Bun with Heart Murmur?!

[Luckie]

Four rescued buns in, my boyfriend and I agreed we would only get a fifth if it was a continental giant. This seem far fetched at the time because they aren’t common in the US so adopting seemed unlikely, and there was no breeders nearby. A few months ago I came across a new conti breeder a few hours away. Purchasing from a breeder rather than adopting wasn’t exactly what I wanted to do, but when she had her first litter I was in love. We picked Cooper, an agouti continental giant, up on 9/24/16 when he was just 9 weeks old, he had been weened for several weeks because the mother had an abscess. He is the third generation in his pedigree and apparently his father passed away during transport to the breeder from stress. The past three weeks with him have been great, he is such a happy, energetic, and cuddly bun.  

Today 10/17/16 at nearly 13 weeks old he had his first vet appointment for a routine check up and to get a surgery date set up to be neutered. Everything was going well until she listened to his heart, turns out he has a heart murmur. She explained that on a scale of 6 he was a 4 or 5.  She said it was more common in older rabbits and not so much in such a young rabbit, but that it was a good that he was energetic. Potentially he could get heart disease, have a shorter life span, and even die suddenly. She did not think it would be a good idea to get him neutered until(or at all) we know more about the murmur. Currently she is looking in to a cardiologist in my area that will do a ultrasound of his heart, and she recommended to eliminate as much stress as possible and keep an eye on his breathing. In the meantime I set out to do all the research I could, but there isn’t all that much out there.

 Does anyone have an insight on a young rabbit with a heart murmur?? Treatment?? Expenses of a rabbit seeing a specialist?

[Vienna Blue in France]

Luckie – I’ve read your post and I feel for you, Though, I’m sorry, I don’t have anything useful to help with your decision.

Could his condition be inherited ? Buns do suffer from stress, but if his Dad passed during travel – that may have been the reason. (You’ll never know).
4/5 out of 6 sounds high… Anyway, whether it was inherited or not doesn’t change things for Cooper)

Of course unfortunately buns can die suddenly for many other reasons… or we can discover they have illnesses later on in their lives.
I can’t imagine what cost it would be to perform heart surgery on a bun. (Except for quite a lot..)

We had a member not long ago who had major surgery on her bun (amputated hind leg) and she had a vet university not far from her who did the procedure and follow up…

You could look into that maybe – if it’s a procedure that is not done very often, maybe they would be happy doing it for ‘educational’ purposes / research.

Good luck and keep in touch.

[Luckie]

I’m unsure if it was inherited. I wondered that myself, and I will have to contact the breeder soon. That conversation has me nervous of her reaction. 

The vet did say it could potentially not be as bad as it sounds once an ultrasound is done, and medication may be an option depending on what they find. This situation has me very worried and heartbroken. I will certainty keep a vet university in mind if it comes to anything like that, and will update the thread as things progress. 

[Odette]

Is it possible that the murmur is a false positive? I know that’s hopeful, but it happens.

I hope the cardiologist can bring some peace of mind.

[Luckie]

Update:

Cooper had an appointment with the cardiologist this morning. She confirmed that he does havenona a serious hearthreat murmur, an atrial septal defect (hole in heart), and congenital heart disease. The cardiologist had concern for the eventual development of pulmonary hypertension resulting r>l shunting and cyanosis. We are going to start him on Vetmedin, which hopefully will help make it easier on his heart. Thankfully he is a happy bun and still energetic.

[Odette]

I am glad the murmur can be treated with a med. I hope the Vetmedin does exactly what it needs to do to protect Cooper’s heart. I’m also glad that Cooper is such a happy, active little bunny.

[Luckie]

Feeling very hopeful that the medicine can prolong his life. He received a gaurded prognosis, so we are unsure how long we will have with him. However short or long it may be he will certainly be happy and very spoiled.

[Vienna Blue in France]

Ah bless Cooper

I am convinced that if the breeder cares about her “babies”, then she will absolutely want to know about Cooper’s medical condition, especially as he’s so young and it’s not “his upbringing’ !. Of course if you start the conversation saying “I want my money back / vets bills paid” then no doubt the conversation won’t be a nice one.

However if it is an informative one, then a responsible breeder will take that on board particularly if she’s been informed of others. Of course it could be a one off… but if she’s not informed then she won’t know any better !

Of course, a breeder knowing about inherited defects does not automatically mean that he/she will stop breeding in the same way – I refer to the lovely dog breed of boxers & bulldogs (and others) in the UK which have serious problems and some breeders refuse categorically to admit there is a problem through breeding and take responsibilty (rant over ).

For info – 30 years ago my very fit & sporty mum with NO symptoms was found (during a routine check up) to have a hole in the heart (since birth!!) at the age of 45 ish. It was a huge hole (apparently) and as she had been so fit, luckily, her heart was in top condition even working at 3/4 capacity ! Outrageous seeing as she had had several operations and 2 pregnancies in her life and no-one had detected it before then!!

She had 2 difficult options : 1) wait & see if it affected her as she got older, but then risk being too old to be operated on…. OR 2) be operated on immediately (with no symptoms) and “hope” to have a full recovery….

Bravely (I thought) she chose to have open heart surgery and is still fighting fit to this day! Yay !
(and no, a human hole-in-the-heart is not an inherited condition… it just happens…)

So…. ALL that to say that maybe we’ve all got something not quite right inside (I’m not counting inside the head ), but without knowing it we blissfully live our lives ignorantly and one day might drop dead (joy !! Happy news Vienna.. keep the spirits up, eh? ) but now that Cooper has been diagnosed he may live on to have a longer life than he would have done if his condition had not been detected. Lucky him!

[Azerane]

I’m very sorry to hear about Cooper’s heart issues. That’s very sad especially for such a young bunny. My brother’s childhood cat ended up with progressive heart failure due to a snake bite. Fortunately she managed to live for many years after, however her energy levels were low, and any time she did attempt to run around it was always a short burst and then she would flop over exhausted.

I very much agree with contacting the breeder. She may not be aware of the issue and I’m sure she would appreciate knowing so that she can breed the conditions out of her lines if it’s a genetic problem. She may even contact the owners of the other kits to get them checked too.

[Luckie]

I did contact the breeder, and that went horribly. She was in no way sympathetic. She said it was my fault that I took the rabbit to the vet, and that vets have no idea what they are doing when it comes to rabbits. She even gave the statistic that 99% of rabbit owners don’t take their rabbits to the vet . *eyeroll* It is a genetic problem, but I highly doubt she will inform anyone… which is unfortunate. Very glad I ended up with Cooper, so that he can receive the proper care.

Vienna, thank you for all your kind words . It has been helpful to read your responses and everyone else’s during this situation.

[Azerane]

Wow, I’m so very sorry that she reacted that way, how horrid! Sorry to say not a respectable breeder at all. Just because 99% of rabbit owners don’t take their rabbit to the vet (which is possibly what she was hoping for) doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be! I’m very sorry that you have had this experience. At least you are aware of it and can provide him with appropriate care for his condition

[Vienna Blue in France]

?? Oh my !! How wrong was I?!! I’m so sorry. How shocking that she reacted like that – it wouldn’t surprise me thenif she knew about it already… and it sure sounds like she won’t be making any changes to her breeding program !

I bet if people who have purchased from her tell her when the bun dies young, she says something like its “normal as it’s a big breed” ….

It’s almost comical that she turned it around to be ‘your’ fault, because you went to a vets !!!

My my. I am a naive little sausage ! Sorry ’bout that

[Luckie]

Vienna, Oddly enough she said that exact thing about his father who died in transit to her. ” he died of the stress from the heat, which is normal as it’s a big breed”

I just received a voicemail with the results from his blood work and fecal test. Apparently he tested positives for parasites? She was going to look in to it further, but if that was the case it was easily treatable. Poor little guy can’t seem to catch a break.

[Vienna Blue in France]

She sounds a “real find” your breeder there

Does she have a Facebook page or something where you can give her a “review”.
And yes Cooper’s Dad would have prob died from heat stroke, literally A heat stroke. Heart problem + stress + overwhelming heat…. poor sweetie.

[Odette]

You said you are in the U.S. If you google your state and rabbit breeders association, you can contact them regarding irresponsible breeding.

She is in denial if she thinks anything except irresponsible breeding causes a congenital heart defect.

Either way, I wish you many years with Cooper. Hopefully taking care of the parasite will take some stress off his heart and help. Lots of good thoughts going with you and Cooper.

[Vienna Blue in France]

I also reread your first post which said Cooper was weened for a few weeks due to the mother having an abcess….. Hmmmmm, sort of makes sense now that the mother wasnt well either…..

[Author]

Messages