Need real talk…how long do I let a bun with degenerating back legs go on?

[caudex]

I haven’t been here since the first of my trio died. I’m afraid I’m about to lose the next and I need advice.

Came home from vacation three weeks ago (buns are looked in on every day by a neighbor– he is not an animal guy but does this as a favor, and I do not blame him in the least) and discovered that 5 year old Sophie had a serious case of poopy butt. She was fine when I left. Started cleaning her up and she was an ulcerated, bleeding mess under gluey diarrhea. Stopped, didn’t want to scrub the poor skin, and got a vet appointment 12 hours later. In the meantime, I realized she was no longer jumping up into the condo, and that she was falling over. The vet cleaned her up and diagnosed scald, gave me metacam, antibiotics, and burn cream. Sophie would not oblige us by falling over in his presence, but he said to bring her back in a week.

Her skin healed, the diarrhea is better with some benebac but still happening, and I’ve realized that her right leg has no function and her left isn’t much better. She’s such a mess because she can’t lift her hind legs to clean herself. She falls and sometimes gets up, but increasingly can’t. Last night I thought she was flopped, went to check on her and she was stuck and covered in urine from panicking. I just keep cleaning her up. On the follow up visit, the vet confirmed no breaks or dislocations, and normal range of motion, but Sophie will not indicate pain, so he doesn’t know what to think. He offered tests, but since it would be completely guessing, I don’t think it’s worth stressing her out more when there are so few things they can do. It’s either a physical injury that will heal with patience and pain management, or she’s doing that thing that always seems to happen to me, where my rabbits abruptly die a grisly death. (if I sound like I’m making light of it, it’s because I just can’t think about it too much…the bun who passed last year went hard.)

All that story for the simple question: how long do I let her go on this way? I am doing everything I can to keep her comfortable. I have reconfigured the pen with ramps and a low (too low, she’s trashing it already!) litter box, but she falls repeatedly. Otherwise, she eats and drinks normally, and is actually friendlier than normal. I think she knows I’m helping despite her hating the almost daily butt baths, But I know that rabbits are sneaky, and that she could be hiding a lot of suffering. What’s the right and kind thing to do here?

[Muchelle]

I am sorry to hear this… I probably can’t be of much help because I have only gone through this when I had pet hamsters, so even if it was hard emotionally it surely wasn’t hard enough as with a rabbit.

My first thought is: is it possible she suffered from a stroke or has a form of ataxia? (wouldn’t change the situation, but at least you’d know better what to expect).

From my unexperienced point of view, I would advice to let her decide: if you see she is mostly unhappy and scared maybe she would deserve release. If you see she still enjoys her life also with the downsides of her not being able to freely move, give her some more time.

I’m sorry I can’t be of more help. I hope everything will go in the best way possible.

[Vienna Blue in France]

Oh dear – I can’t be of any help either – maybe someone else will, urgently….. sounds as if something has happened to spine or back for both legs not to work after just a trip away. As with always – I think you are the only one able to read your animals signals…. if she is bun-structing the litter tray – then that’s sort of good news isn’t it? If she’s got enough energy to do that?!
Muchelle’s words make sense. See if you can read Sophie’s signs… and go from there.
Not much help I know but we’re out here watching and hoping.
(((( healing vibes to Sophie ))))

[Mikey]

Have you been suggested physical therapy for her? I think its worth a try in case its just a weird pinched nerve or something. Youll have to be gentle, hold her with her back to you securely, take her foot that isnt working and slowly move her foot up and down in a walking motion. Do this a few times, then go to the next foot and do the same thing for a few times. After, massage her thighs very lightly, then her hips very lightly, and work on relaxing her. I would try this twice a day for about a week. If that doesnt show any bit of improvement and the vet has no idea whats up, i dont think there is much of a chance to fix the problem

(((((healing vibes)))))

EDIT

Would getting or making her a wheelchair be possible at all? That alone might boost her mood because she wont be falling and thrashing around nearly as often. You can make a semi durable wheelchair out of kinects (unsure on spelling) or a light weighted wood from the hardware store

[Muchelle]

Posted By Mikey on 7/16/2016 6:13 PM

Have you been suggested physical therapy for her? I think its worth a try in case its just a weird pinched nerve or something. Youll have to be gentle, hold her with her back to you securely, take her foot that isnt working and slowly move her foot up and down in a walking motion. Do this a few times, then go to the next foot and do the same thing for a few times. After, massage her thighs very lightly, then her hips very lightly, and work on relaxing her. I would try this twice a day for about a week. If that doesnt show any bit of improvement and the vet has no idea whats up, i dont think there is much of a chance to fix the problem

I find it a brilliant suggestion! In case the affection is muscular or cerebral (again, stroke/ataxia/etc), physical therapy would be of help!

 Although, I would have her x-rayed before doing this, just in case she is not having a discitis or a bone degeneration/injury to her vertebrae. I’m not a vet, but I work in a spinal unit, so I know stuff might go bad if the movement would press one of her nerves or aggravate a pre-existing condition in her spinal cord…

[caudex]

A stroke was my first thought. But she is bright and alert, grooming her partner and washing the parts she can reach with three feet on the ground. She reacts when I approach, and scarfs veggies enthusiastically. She is trying to get around with varying success. If I wasn’t scooping her off the ground and washing waste off her twice a day, she’d be a perfect rabbit specimen.

The vet said that if it is neurological, it will be hard to diagnose and I don’t have many options. In fact, based on the diagnoses he rattled off the top of his head, once we get out of things like sprains, things get grim pretty fast.

On Monday I will be calling the vet to ask for more pain meds, and I will mention physical therapy, and see what he thinks of x rays first. He tended to think based on his examination that her bones and joints were fine, but something is causing the worse leg to kick in a bit. That foot gets messier than the other.

Thank you for the kind thoughts.

[Muchelle]

Strokes aren’t necessarily massive, they could be very tiny and might even go unnoticed if they don’t hit just the right spot to cause evident problems. I sure hope she didn’t have one, even if small!

Please do keep us updated <3 Hope it will all resolve for the best for you and your girl!

[Dee]

Could she possibly have E. Cuniculi? The stress of being cared for by someone else could have brought it on (obviously it’s not your fault though!). This is just a thought, but my Nelli had hind leg issues that came on suddenly, though weren’t quite as bad as what you describe. I put her on a 28 day course of Panacur, a dewormer, and she improved greatly! She was 7 at the time, so she likely had arthritis too, but I’m quite sure E.C. was a factor because of her recovery during her Panacur treatment. Ask your vet of course, although a lot of bunny people- rescues and fosterers- give it as a matter of course to their rabbits.

Good luck- I know how heartbreaking it is to watch them struggle. But if it was me, I would try to find a solution and help her adjust if I couldn’t- unless she became unhappy. Once my rabbits are not enjoying food or in pain that cannot be remedied, I know it’s time to help them cross the bridge. Much harder to do than write though ?. I hope your bunny gets well!

[vanessa]

I agree with EC. Get some fenbendazole. Medirabbit lists the dose for rabbits. Get it asap. If it is EC, and it was caught early enough, there is god chance of recovery. I had one rabbit recover from EC, another died. Now I suspect I have another case, and I’m keeping an eye on that bunnie’s pal. I would seriousely try the fenbendazole. Hopefully you will see improvement. It sucks that you weren’t home. See my post about Lancelot. His back legs are wobbly and stiff, he is peeing everywhere, and steps in his poop. I need to trim his poopy butt hair. I’ve seen EC – so wobbly legs scare me. Fenbendazole is a dog dewormer. I woudl ask the vet for a bottle o 10% panacur for your rabbit’s weight, or look on medi rabbit and do the math. I did it for Lancelot. I started him on Fenbendazole on Friday because I can only get a vet appointment for him on Tuesday. I think this afternoon he was walkign better. If it is EC, you want to start treating it right away, and keep treating it for 4-6 weeks.

[vanessa]

Seizures are one of the symptoms of EC.

[jerseygirl]

I’m sorry you came home to a poorly bunny. Sending lots of {{{vibes}}} for Sophie.

From your description, it sounds as if she is not miserable – just high maintenance at the moment? I suppose it comes down to how YOU feel she is coping and how much you can assist. You may have commitments that prevent you from being able to meet her needs. So it is an absolutely personal decision.

A few years back, my rabbit developed head tilt and went into full rolling and spent a week or more unable to stand at all. The vet I was seeing witnessed one of her rolling episodes and seemed a bit taken aback. She did bring up euthanasia, she hadn’t really seen these cases resolve. But I was aware (from stories online) that with care, they could. And I was willing to nurse her and give it a chance while she was on meds for a month. If she rapidly declined, of course I would have reassessed things. I just had to take things day by day and check in how I felt she was doing. I know that others less familiar with the condition wondered what I was doing. Despite the spasmodic rolling, she was bright eyed and ate her salads I hand fed her. Within a week she got herself upright and eventually made a full recovery. Not all do but we were lucky.  I’m not telling you Maples story to urge you not to euthanise. I just mention it because you may get opinions from those around you that are not aligned with your own. If you are her chief care-giver, then you know her best and how she is doing day to day. 

If the vet is confident it is more neurological, then I triple ditto treating for EC just in case. Her being on pain meds will already be helping because of the anti-inflammatory properties. Typically, treatment for EC is 28 days on panacur along with an anti inflammatory med. You may also want to give her bond mate a course of panacur.

Is she soiling mostly from urine now or is it still with messy poo also? It could be that she is not getting her cecatrophes and 1) they are becoming mashed onto her backside or 2) her not being able to eat them has resulted in a gut imbalance. If your other rabbit happens to leave any about, you could try give those to Sophie so she gets what she needs. I think I remember someone saying they were able to wrap them in a lettuce leaf and their rabbit ate it like that. Others will eat them as is, without a fuss so it might be just a matter of putting them in front of her.

If it’s mostly just urine soiling her, you could try diapering her. Also a sanitary shave keeps urine away from the skin, keeping it cleaner and intact.

There is a group on Facebook for Disabled Rabbits that may be able to give you some guidance. http://www.facebook.com/groups/201759429869484/

I’m sure they could share knowledge for dealing with both short term disability and long term and about quality of life. 

You might find this resource useful too: http://www.catsandrabbitsandmore.com/disabled_rabbits&nbsp;

I’ll be thinking of you and Sophie bun. Please keep us updated.

[caudex]

She passes normal solid waste at this point, but if these are her cecatrophes, they are not normal. I sometimes pick her up before it sticks, and it is a gluey liquid mass. Think toothpaste. This happens a few times a day as far as I can tell, sometimes she manages to not get it all over her, sometimes not. The urine happens if she has this glue preventing her from passing it, or if she has fallen and can’t get up, she panics and pees on herself. She appears to have control of her bladder otherwise. I’m ordering more benebac, it might have helped and didn’t hurt, though I need a three pack because Liam loves the taste so much that he runs over and tries to bite it out of her mouth if he doesn’t get a dose too…

Ordering a 10% suspension of fenbendazole. also. I’d thought of it, but my friend just lost her bun to head tilt and he was essentially a brainless zombie at the end, not like Sophie at all, so I dismissed it.

The vet shaved her, I have cut her close before but never tried to shave that delicate skin. Any tips?

I don’t mind doing what I have to do for her as long as she’s happy, I signed up for the job when I brought the ornery little fluff ball home. There is a critical spot approaching though. In two weeks I have to leave again for the weekend for my brother’s wedding. Even if I asked my neighbor to make two stops per day instead of one, and to please set Sophie on her feet if she’s on her side when he visits, and he does, that’s a lot of time for her to be fallen and unable to get water. And I certainly can’t ask him to clean her. Our crisis has been what do we do for her, and if we conclude there is nothing and we must help her move on, it means leaving the last one completely alone in the house for three days, which I can’t stomach. Even if I went out today to find Liam a companion, not something I’m sure we will do otherwise, they wouldn’t be bonded in time.

Ever since the Disney World Epidemic when I was a kid, all the way to Finn last year, my rabbits have preferred to get sick and die when I try to go on vacation. I am quite tired of it, so cut it out Sophie!!!

[Muchelle]

You could maybe leave her boarding at the vet’s? I don’t know how things works abroad, but here many vets offer that service (of course there’s a cost, but at least she would be properly cared for)

[vanessa]

Oh i feel so bad 4 u. Is there anyway u could take the rabbit with for the weekend? Is she eating enough hay?

[LBJ10]

I agree with the possibility of EC. Every bun is different as far as symptoms and severity goes. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to treat for it and it sounds like that’s what you decided to do. As long as she is comfortable, then I would give her some time. It takes awhile for EC symptoms to improve after treatment begins so don’t give up yet.

[caudex]

I am going 16 hours away, and crossing a border…so Sophie is not invited, unfortunately. And boarding the both of them is prohibitively expensive– pretty close to $100/day. I imagine they charge so much to keep people from just boarding their animals at the vet for the fun of it.

She loves her hay and eats all her food normally.

[Vienna Blue in France]

Could Sophie go on weekend vacation too and stay at your neighbours place ? So he can see asap when she falls and also not be ‘too’ inconvenienced (or indeed worried) going to yours each time he thinks she may have fallen. If I were the neighbour, i’d be going in every hour to check everything was OK…

[caudex]

Well, an update…I’ve done a lot, but little has changed. Got back from vacation, Sophie did okay with neighbor stopping by and setting her on her feet if she was lying down. She had pee on her side, obviously got stuck at least once.

I’m cleaning her up every other day or so. I went on the disabled bunny page and per their recommendation got special shampoo, scissors and towels so I can keep her as neat is possible, and a new accessible litterbox. She falls often, but gets up on her own about 75% of the time by doing donuts with her front legs til she gets momentum. We are also doing diapers in a bid to keep her legs clean and dry. It works pretty well, and Liam spends more time on the ground with her if it’s not messy. She’s on panacur, metacam, and benebac now, we’ll see what it does if anything.

Learned on the page that I needed to check her ears since she can’t lift to scratch, and they were really bad. Followed directions with a flush after q tips wouldn’t pick it up. She’s snuffling this morning, feel like I made her worse trying to help.

She still eats, grooms herself and Liam  as best she can, does a funny modified foot flick after all the horrible things I have to do to her, and investigates me when I sit in the pen to prove every visit isn’t torture. She tried to jump in the condo and fell on her face, so she WANTS to be normal. The bad leg has atrophied, but she can move it. Husband was at the vet with the dog, vet asked about her. Husband says that when he related her condition, vet’s face fell. He said he has seen this before, but did not ask to see her again. He filled her metacam prescription over the phone. I can guess his assessment of her prognosis.

I’m treating her for head tilt. If it were arthritis or spondylosis, it’d be metacam, which she has. If it’s stroke, or even still, an injury, it’s tending and accommodation. I wouldn’t put her through cancer treatment, and I won’t put her through surgery, I have had 100% of my rabbits not live through it. Can anyone think of anything else that would be worth bringing her back to the vet for?

[caudex]

Update: not snuffling, wheezing. Labored breathing, dry nose. Waiting for call from vet, they’re packed and they have to confirm before I can go in.

[jerseygirl]

{{{Sophie}}} From your longer update, I was thinking things were looking pretty good. Im sorry to learn of the wheezing. Has she been on an antibiotic at all? I wonder if a resp infection has taken hold because she has been run down?
Will be waiting for another update. I hope the vet visit goes well.

[jerseygirl]

Learned on the page that I needed to check her ears since she can’t lift to scratch, and they were really bad. Followed directions with a flush after q tips wouldn’t pick it up. She’s snuffling this morning, feel like I made her worse trying to help.

I never would have thought of that. Thanks for sharing it back here. Good to know. It’s the people that tend to know all the tricks and things to watch for.

Husband says that when he related her condition, vet’s face fell. He said he has seen this before, but did not ask to see her again. He filled her metacam prescription over the phone. I can guess his assessment of her prognosis.

She may surprise him when he actually sees her.

[caudex]

No cause found for her breathing. They injected her with a secretion reducer and gave me baytril. (THIS vet was smart enough to give me the injectable to mix with juice, instead of the pill they made me force into poor Finn.)

Did an x ray to check her lungs. This or that might be something, nothing definitive, but we did see what is causing her back end issues. Sophie has really pronounced congenital kyphosis…essentially, she’s a hunchback. As that part of her spine gets older and weaker, it’s causing issues. So it is purely a matter, if we get her lungs under control, of how much degeneration is acceptable before she isn’t happy anymore.

She certainly isn’t happy right this minute, but overall seems to be doing okay. The vet laughed when I described everything I was doing, but said I seemed on top of things. I promise Sophie, I won’t make you linger any longer than you want to, but I’ll help you stay as long as you like.

[Vienna Blue in France]

Oh dear Caudex – sorry to hear Sophie’s no better…. ((( Healing vibes ))) and please update us when you can.

[vanessa]

Looking at your picture im not dure if sophies tail is out if the diaper or if it is her other foot in the picture. R u doing tail in or out? I find a diaper only works for my bunny when i can change it within a few hours, 3 at the most. Makes work days difficult. Any diaper advice u have found Works or doesnt work?

[Muchelle]

I never had the diaper problem, but as an ignorant person I’ll ask this:
would it be more comfortable for the bun to make something custom sized like this doggie panty + human sanitary pad?
It’s fairly easy to sew, or can even be a no-sew project if using the right fabric…and cotton is surely more gentle on delicate skin than plastic. It introduces the trouble of making 2 or 3 and washing, but the custom size might help?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4e/52/1c/4e521ce943c8f1247d8814f95a81cdcd.jpg (pic found on google)

[LBJ10]

Aww, poor Sophie. I’m sorry to hear she hasn’t improved much since your last update.

[caudex]

Posted By vanessa on 8/07/2016 11:26 AM
Any diaper advice u have found Works or doesnt work?

I used the YouTube tutorial on Bonnie I found on the disabled bunny page. Sophie is three pounds and wears a size 2. While folded I make a one inch cut in the middle, which makes a two inch slot for the tail, and put it on her backwards, so the Velcro tabs are on top. We are still working on cutting out enough material to let the bunny knees out on the first try, you need to take quite a bit off. If it’s wrong, she kicks it off. I am leaving it on her at night and while I work, with naked time in between. This is longer than ideal, but her bad leg is hitched in, and will not get out of the way of her waste. Additionally, if she falls and can’t get up, she pees all over that side. To that end, I am using overnight diapers for maximum absorbence, and she gets bag balm on her legs and underneath. Her skin looks great when the diaper stays on, so my approach seems to be working.

I am considering cloth long term for better fit. However, my primary concern is moisture wicking, which the diaper will do better than flannel. If the cloth is wet, I am concerned it will do more damage to her skin than a conventional diaper with a dry surface.

[vanessa]

I haven’t heard of overnight diapers. I just looked them up. Good idea. My problem at the moment is wet tail. Initially, he had wet legs and a wet butt. That hair came off, and I alternated between baby powder, and sudocrem. That skin is now looking good, and new fur is growing back. Now the tail. I need to get the hair off so I can keep it dry, but I don’t understand how it gets wet in the first place. WHat helped me keep his legs dry, was placing him in a sitting position so the pee doesn’t pool on his legs. Tomorrow I’ll try tail-in, and see if that keeps his tail dry. I have tried preemie, newborn, and size 1. Lancelot weighs 4lbs. I found the size 1 the best. I’ll give 2 a try. I also have cloth diapers, an dhave been afraid totry them for the same reason – but I’m going to get female sanitary pads and try them that way. With a cloth diaper, I can fold it so his legs don’t get irritated by the elastic.

[caudex]

Sophie’s tail stays dry if I put it through the slit I cut.

Are you trimming the diaper at all? I end up cutting off almost all the elastic to make it fit properly. If you are cutting a tail slit but not trimming the sides, I wonder the the extra material is causing the tail to pop back inside and get wet.

[jerseygirl]

caudex, I hadn’t heard of kyphosis in rabbits before. I did find some things once I googled. One thing I read was that female rabbits are more commonly affected.

[caudex]

jerseygirl, I had heard of lordosis (swayback…I have it) but not kyphosis, though of course the opposite must have existed. Not much for it besides what I’m doing now apparently.

Vanessa, a pic of the diaper I put on Sophie this morning, which fit on the first try. See how much I cut off the side that goes on her belly? You can also just barely see the tail slit.

 

And bonus pic…another thing the disabled bun page suggested that I hadn’t thought of, was a stuffie companion. Liam does spend time with her, but likes to be up in the condo, especially when the cage floor is messy. Someone to groom and snuggle seems to comfort her a bit, though not every day. She does like when I pick it up and groom her with it after a scary activity, like a bath.

[vanessa]

Love the bonus pic! So cute! I like how you cut the diaper. I’ll have to give that a try. Today I tried the size 2 overnight diaper, and I left the tail in. I’ll see how it works when I get home. Does your Sophie pee a lot? Lancelot is a peeing machine.

[vanessa]

How is Sophie doing?

[caudex]

Sorry I didn’t see this Vanessa…lots going on, plus a lot of bunny care. Unfortunately, I made a post in Rainbow Bridge this weekend. She is better now. Kind thoughts for her companion left behind please, he is lonely and sad.

[Author]

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