Advice (added photos! :)

[Emma&Charlie]

Hi all!

 We adopted 2 bunnies from a breeder at about 6 weeks old. They are now about 6 months old and have been living with us for a while. Emma is our little girl and Charlie is our little boy (they are bother and sister from the same litter). Charlie was neutered at about 4 months old but they said we should only spay Emma if we really needed to cause it is a much harder operation. I noticed for sure from the beginning that Emma was the much more sensitive/shy/nervous type whereas Charlie was always very brave and adventurous and friendly. Around the 4th month Emma started to become more and more stand off ish. I think part of this problem is due to hormones and part of the problem is due to the fact that I am probably doing everything wrong! They have been indoor rabbits with us. They were outdoor rabbits when we got them in winter from the breeder but we decided to keep them indoors at our home. They have a two story cage in our livingroom so they can be around us as much as possible. We were taking them out of their cage daily to play in their playpen. With the arragement we have, it is not possible to have their playpen connected to the cage, so we have to take them out of their cage to carry them to the play pen where they have more room to run. I also have to clean the cage when they are in it or after I have carried them out of it. Now it is Spring here and we have to take them out and carry them outside. I know they dont love to be picked up and transfered but we assumed it was ok since it was only in order to give them much more space to run around (which they both love to do). Our little boy does very well with this. He doesnt love to be picked up I wouldnt say but he will come right up to us like he wants to get out and runs around happily once he is out. Our little girl Emma has started to be very scared though and runs and lunges and has just recently started to bite. I am ok to leave her in the indoor cage but worry that she misses out on more excersie that way and interaction with the family. I was thinking I would leave her in her indoor cage full time and give her a break from being moved but still try to spend time sitting near the cage talking to and petting her without lifting. I am not sure though if that will stop the problem in the long term or if that is ok for her to have less room to run. We are also wondering if it would be a good idea to get them an outdoor stall for when it is nice which we can connect to the playpen and they can come and go as they like during the day (with it closed off at night for saftely) and then just bring them indoors in fall and winter. Hopefully I gave enough info and didnt ramble too long!

TIA

Amy

[Mikey]

You should always spay your females as they easily get uterine cancer. Its a little interesting to hear a rabbit savvy vet that doesnt want to do it because theyre nervous about it. I dont feel i can give much advice on the rest of what you wrote because my trio doesnt mind being picked up at all. Wishing you luck!

[Emma&Charlie]

I live in Germany. I am not sure if that makes a difference because here not just one vet (I take my to a bigger city to the small animal hospital), but most vets recommend that you only do it if needed for fighting or agressive behavior in the pair and what not. In Germany, they do tend to be less inclinded to do operations or give medicine even in people as well compared to my experience in the USA (I am American in Germany). I can of course go in and say I want them to do it despite the risks and they will, as I am a paying customer. She just said they dont automatically do it here. I might take them in for a check up and to talk more to the vet about it. Do you think having her spayed, if it goes well, would help a lot with this issue we have been having with her?

[LBJ10]

If the behaviors are hormone-driven, then yes spaying will help with that.

I do agree with Mikey on spaying. Different countries have different views on these things. But studies have shown that unspayed females can have up to a 80% risk of developing uterine cancer at a relatively young age. It depends on genetics though, some breeds have a higher risk than others. This is why we advocate for spaying here on BB because it really is in the bunny’s best interest. And if it helps with behavior, then that is great too.

[Jillian191j]

My bunny Jessie was an unspayed female. She was very affectionate with me. But, she was overly aggressive with everyone/thing else. She once chased my 125 lb. dog around snarling and biting him because he came onto her territory by accident. She lived happily and healthy until almost 9 years old, but she did die of uterine cancer.

Just some things for you to consider.

[Emma&Charlie]

I have no idea at all if her behaviors are hormone driven or based on the issues I listen above with picking them up a lot and messing with their space while they are in them. I assume it could be because I have been doing those things since we got them at 6 weeks and she has only just recently gotten so upset and aggressive about them.

If it helps they are mini lop bunnies and both their parents were as well.

I will talk to my husband and the vet hospital about the option to spay again. I guess I just worry a lot about doing it given that it is such a more complicated operation and she is already a kind or nervous type bunny by nature.

I would also really love some advice on the other issues I wrote about above and thought about indoor outdoor type living choice for them if anyone has any or opinions on the options.

Thanks

[Hazel]

Welcome to BB!

Posted By Emma&Charlie on 4/11/2016 3:58 AM
I have no idea at all if her behaviors are hormone driven or based on the issues I listen above with picking them up a lot and messing with their space while they are in them. I assume it could be because I have been doing those things since we got them at 6 weeks and she has only just recently gotten so upset and aggressive about them.

Most of it is likely hormonal, but baby rabbits do act very differently from adults, even after they’re altered. Babies are often fine with being picked up, and as they get older, they suddenly hate it. It’s a normal part of maturing.

The aggression will likely decrease after she’s spayed. However, cage aggression is not an abnormal behavior, even for altered rabbits, females especially. Picking her up out of her cage will make this much worse than it would normally be. The cage is supposed to be their safe place, rather than a place that makes them feel trapped and vulnerable. They don’t just dislike being picked up, it scares them. Nature tells them “Someone’s grabbing you, you’re about to become dinner!” By doing this every day, you’re slowly chipping away her trust in you, which is why she has become aloof and scared/aggressive when you approach. So first of all, she should be spayed, even if that means having to drive further to find a rabbit savvy vet (it doesn’t sound like yours is comfortable with the procedure). This should be done mostly for health reasons, as has already been mentioned, the risk of cancer rises to around 85% by age 3-4. But it should also help with her behavior, provided you can find a way to manage their play time without picking them up. If I had to do that with my rabbit, he would never get out, he will NOT tolerate it and that’s very normal. Some rabbits can become okay with it, but most won’t. We only pick ours up to clip his nails, and that’s a two person job to do it safely. They can break their own back trying to get away if not properly restrained. If there is really no way to change their living arrangements so you don’t have to move them for play time, you could train them to hop into a carrier, and then carry them where they need to go.

About keeping them outdoors for half of the year, I would advice against it. This is a house rabbit forum, and most people here keep their bunnies indoors. There are many dangers for them out there, even in a sturdy enclosure. Parasites, pesticides, other animals trying to get at them (even if they can’t, the presence of a predator can cause them to die of fright), just to name a few. Also, if you keep them outside it will automatically mean that you won’t spend as much time with them as you would if they were right there in the house with you. They are very good at hiding illness, the slightest of change in their behavior can indicate a serious problem, and the less time you spend with them the less likely you will be able to spot or recognize those changes. For example, my bun gets stomach issues often, the only warning I might get is him sitting in an unusual spot, or his facial expression being “off”. Very subtle signs, but if I wouldn’t notice them right away, he could easily slip into stasis. Rabbits can go from being totally fine to being dead in a 24 hour period if they go into stasis.

Well I guess you get my point, sorry for babbling on.

I would love to see some pictures of your bunnies, lops are the cutest!

[Emma&Charlie]

Thanks so much for all that imformation! They are my first so even though I have been trying to read and lot it has be a bit tough, especially given the different ideas between in many areas here in Germany versus the USA. I will talk to my husband to the vet and we will see if there is some way we can move around their cage or play area as well. I will try to add some more photos to this site, just have to figure out how.

[Bam]

Here’s a little tutorial on how to upload pictures to your posts: Pictorial

We luuuv bunny pictures!!! 

[Emma&Charlie]

[Emma&Charlie]

There you go! They look really similar seeing as they are brother and sister! Emma, the girl is actually the first two shots, then together Charlie is closest to the bowl and the last photo as well. He often runs over and stands up when you walk near his playpen cause he is the one who likes to be pet and usually lets me pick him up pretty easily especially using the hold where his back is to my chest and I hold him under his upper arms and bum (unless I am trying to take him from outside back inside!)

[Bam]

Squeee! They are lovely!

[Gina.Jenny]

last pic of them together is so awwwww

[Emma&Charlie]

Thanks! Yeah they are usually super cute and they love to snuggle and lay on top of one another. Despite everything I am doing wrong, they do seem to be pretty happy when they are out and running around (At least based on what I have read about their body language). They do the little twisty jumps into the air and flop over randomly on their sides like they just died. In the beginning, I swear I even made Emma purr before she decided she hated me touching here lol.

[Hazel]

Posted By Emma&Charlie on 4/12/2016 3:39 PM

Despite everything I am doing wrong…

No, don’t say that. Owning rabbits is a never ending learning curve. I’ve owned bunnies for many years and still, I learn new things all the time. You wouldn’t believe all the stupid things I did when I had my first ones. I think your bunnies are lucky to have an owner that cares and wants to do what’s best for them.

They are so cute, it must be almost impossible to tell them apart!

[Emma&Charlie]

Thanks so much for your kind words! They are certainly loved in the house, that is for sure.
Actually we can usually tell them apart pretty well by now. When we first got them it was easy cause Emma still had one ear that would stand up but at that time we thought she was Charlie cause we mixed up the boy and girl I guess. Then we found out that Charlie was Emma and Emma was Charlie lol. Now that they are a bit bigger they have facial features that make it pretty clear who is who, especially when they are right next to one another as Emma is a lot lighter than Charlie. Sometimes though, if I only see one all alone in a certain position, I cant tell which one it is right away.

[RosieBunny]

Gorgeous bunnies !!!

[Vienna Blue in France]

They are lovely buns ! At first I thought they had huuuuuge ears as the avatar photo makes a leg look like a floppy ear (through my eyes anyway!).LOL

Shame Emma doesn’t want to be picked up – you could always get a carrier and transport her from indoors to outdoors that way…. make carrier nice and welcoming with food in each time (leave it for a while before you actually pick her up in it – let her get used to going in and out and being “safe” without moving it).
That’s what I have to do as I can’t pick up mine anymore. Sniiiiiffffff.

The fact that she and Charlie are a bonded happy cosy couple, is (unfortunately for us humans who like cuddles) more important than having a cuddle with human Mum…. they do look happy and loved ! Well done.

[Emma&Charlie]

Aw thanks!

Actually that is how we got her outside yesterday. I put the transport box in the cage with hey in it and left it. Eventually she got into it and my mother-in-law carefully lifted it out with her in it and took her outside. I think that should work well for her as an option. It was super tricky though to get her to go back in. My husband had to do it cause she loves to be outside and had no interest in checking the box out with such a larger free space with plenty of things to chew on in it. I think though that with some time, she will get used to that being a better way to get transported around and hopefully it wont take as long every time!

I did a lot of reading when I went to get bunnies and decided that it would be a better idea to have a pair bonded from a young age like that because even though we love them tons, they are alot in the cage inside during the week and we didnt want to have a lonely bunny. So far I think we have done a lot of things right, just still learning a lot and making changes as they need where and when we can.

[flemishwhite]

About spaying.  Apparently there’s a 90%+ chance a female rabbit will get uterine cancer by age 5.  When Bunny was approaching 5 years old, our then vet would not operate because Bunny was too fat.  An internet search, calling a rabbit rescue facility for advice, etc led to a vet that would operate on fat bunnys.  He liposuctioned off a pound of fat!  When he first looked at Bunny’s uterus, he said his first thought was she was pregnant due to the lumps in her uterus.  The lumps were tumors, she we got her spayed just in time.

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