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Forum BONDING Hip & Hop

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    • babybunsmum
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        Hello!  I am starting a bonding adventure.  I have never bonded rabbits before.  In the past when I have had 2 buns at a time I resorted to separate enclosures and free-roaming time.  I have read the Bonding Info page and am skimming through some of the threads in this forum… but of course comments and tips are welcomed!

        Meet Hip (sister) and Hop (brother).  They are 7 months old and were born in the shelter.  Spayed / neutered on October 21, 2015 and from then on kept in separate enclosures.  Their enclosures were stacked and in a separate (but noisy) room in the shelter.

        I brought them home Friday afternoon (so today is day 2!  I have them in side by side NIC enclosures separated by an inch space to keep them from nipping each other.  Enclosures are 2 wide x 3 long and 2 tall.  Apparently I have to cap them because lil miss Hip has already figured out how to scale the side and jump over.  Brat

        So far no bonding sessions.  I have switched their litter pans and their cardboard chew projects daily. Plan to bond in the kitchen where they haven’t been (vinyl flooring).

        Here is a video of Hop free-roaming (excuse Hoarders in the background).  I am armed with a water spray bottle to break up any biting attempts through the NIC fence.  Its not an exciting video… just cute buns hangin out.  Gives a taste of how tuned into each other they are.

         


      • babybunsmum
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          Question before I get started… I’m on my own with this bonding and can’t carry 2 at a time. How do I get things started? I’m using the kitchen as neutral territory and plan to have the exhaust fan on. It’s about to die and makes horrible noises so it should do the trick. If bun #1 is sufficiently unsettled then it won’t claim the kitchen territory in the few seconds it takes me to fetch the other?? Or should I plop them both in a laundry basket and carry them in there together? Any suggestions?

          I also need to clip off the tips of their nails. They’re SO sharp. Wow. and I want to get used us all used to this process the sooner the better. I wonder if “on a towel on the table for nail clips” can be their first neutral territory bonding? Or is that a silly idea?

          Thanks for any feedback!! I’m excited to get started.


        • babybunsmum
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            The first bonding session is complete!  Tonight went well I think.  I put Hip in the laundry basket in the kitchen and then got Hop.  At first they were wiggling around a lot.  Each of them tried to tuck their head under the other a couple of times.  I gently prevented this because I wasn’t sure if they were going to try to nip while tucked under.  Eventually Hip loafed.  She looked pretty scared – poor baby!  Hop was looking out of the basket as if he was planning an escape sometimes stepping on Hip’s back.  She didn’t react to this at all.  I took this video around 10 min. in.  After the video I petted them both and cooed a bit before calling it at 15min.

            I gave them each some greens in their enclosures immediately after.  Neither was interested in eating during the session.  I guess they were too scared in the neutral kitchen with the vent hood going.  After they ate their greens I took this video which shows one of their boxing matches while Hip was having free-roam time.  They never box through their enclosure divider (spaced apart an inch) but only through outside walls.

             

            Right now they’re both loafing

            As far as MY bonding with them goes… tonight was a milestone.  Each of them approached and nose-bumped me during their free roam time!  Yay!  Hip even tried to “grab” my finger gently.  You know how buns do when they’re not trying to bite but trying to move your body part out of the way :p

            A good day.


          • babybunsmum
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              Ok.  Session 2 tonight.  I decided to put them on the Kitchen floor minus the laundry basket.  Chaos ensued.  Here is a video from the first few minutes.  I had to put my iPad down to get things under control and I took a second video later on after I positioned them on the towel.  The session lasted about 20 mins.  Hop seems to be the adventurous one looking all around (he gave me a wee kiss… yay!!).   Hip is usually the aggressor.  When she pushes her head under him does she want grooms from Hop??  That’s what I’m reading into it anyways.  If you’re reading/watching and have any observations I’d love to hear them.  I’m not sure if I’m handling things the right way??  And I have NO idea what the noises coming out of my mouth are all about.  Lol.

              Cheers

              C


            • LittlePuffyTail
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                Sounds like the first session went well.

                I’m not sure why but I had thought they were both girls.

                I’m not gonna be much help as I was never able to bond my Bindi and Oliva due to her aggression. But I can be your cheer squad!!!


              • babybunsmum
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                  Cheer squads are very important too… thx


                • Dee
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                    They are adorable- I could never tell them apart though! Bunny bookends ?. I’m no expert but Hip looks like she either wants grooms or is just looking to hide her head under Hop. I find that the bunny who is most interested in making contact is usually the one most likely to nip whenever their little bunny desires are not met. With mine, Luke (the boy) nips when Nelli (the old girl) hops away or past him. Like, “Hey, look at me! Or hey, I’m gonna nip you just in case you’re thinking of nipping me!”

                    They looked nice and cuddly together in all the videos except the one where one keeps nipping at the other. Even that doesn’t look too aggressive, more like nervousness. Again- I have bonded only one pair of bunnies and they really bonded themselves. In my a bit of humping from the newly neutered boy. Then BunBun, my original male rabbit, died last June and we adopted 1.5 yr old Luke, another neutered male, to be a new husbun for the widowed (spayed of course) 7 yr old Nelli. And I’m still trying to bond them. I’m such a chicken about the whole ordeal and it doesn’t help that Luke’s sharp baby nails have Nelli a cut that needed several stitches during an accidental meeting when I first got Luke home. You mentioned how sharp your rabbits’ nails were, and I know what you mean! They’re dangerous when bonding too apparently. I’m going to check Luke’s again tonight and might try to just file the sharp points. Yikes.

                    I’ll be looking forward to seeing more of your bonding bunnies ☺. Looks to me like a happy union in progress!


                  • babybunsmum
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                      Sorry to hear about BunBun

                      I trimmed up their nails which has helped a lot. And while I was at it I painted one of Hip’s nails pink so I can tell them apart. Filing sounds like a good idea too. May try that. I think I’ll need to have a glass of wine pre-bond session to calm down a bit. I’m also a bit terrified one or both will get hurt. That has happened to me before with other bun pairs I had before I knew ‘bonding’ was a thing. Pre-internet days (yes I’m THAT old). Lol.

                      I forgot to mention that bond session 2 included some bun mounting another bun. I didn’t get that part recorded and was too caught up in separating them that I don’t know for certain who was on top. If I had to guess I’d say it was HIp since she’s clearly the dominant. But Hop does get in there boxing too so…?

                      Do you have a bonding thread for Luke and Nelli? I’ve read so much in the last few days I’m not sure who’s who in this forum yet. Will check. Thanks for your comments and good luck to you too


                    • babybunsmum
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                        Session 3 happened tonight.  No videos.  The session lasted 20 mins in the neutral Kitchen on the floor mat.  They don’t really try to stray from the mat onto the vinyl floor but just in case i sat with my legs out in a vee with them on the mat in between.  Hip flattened out in a dominant pose right off the bat and when Hop nonchalantly ignored she lunged and got sprayed with my water bottle. 

                        I smooshed a bit of banana on her head to try to encourage Hop to groom her.  No go.  She ended up shaking her head, flicking the banana off and eating it herself.  She’s a strong independent gal that one.  They ended up nose to nose in a bit of a standoff and I gently pulled at the hair on top of their heads to mimic grooming.  Hip’s ears stayed flat but for this I stumbled on a new trick… singing!  They particularly enjoyed my rendition of Adele’s Hello.  Lol.  This seemed to work to get both their ears from flat.  Which is odd because my singing voice used to get my dog to look very very annoyed with me. 

                         After the serenade Hip *may* have groomed Hop for a split second before she mounted him.  I intervened the action.  Am I supposed to intervene this bunny love or let it play out?  Not sure about that.  I distracted them with a round of Kumbaya and ended the session after they had both been ears forward and moving about receptive to head pets from me.


                      • babybunsmum
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                          Had bonding session #6 tonight.  Still in the kitchen on the wee floor mat.  There was about 30 minutes of not much… the occasional nip attempt but not with a lot of gusto.  Mostly just chill.  Then Hop move around a bit and Hip mounted him.  I let it happen for a bit discouraging if she started to dig her face in his back too much.  He didn’t look too impressed but yet he let it happen.  Then at one point he decided he had enough and he turned and nipped her.  She nipped back and grunted – the first time I heard anything vocal from either one of them – and then I intervened before it got ugly.  I smooshed them side by side and pet them for a minute to get them calmed down.  And then THIS happened!!!!  Grooming!!!  Hop groomed her!! Wow!!!  I let that happen (obviously) and then ended the session when Hip hopped away.  The session lasted about 50 mins. 


                        • Azerane
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                            Such a positive bonding session with the grooming there. I love when Hop spreads his toes wide to groom them, I always find that so adorable when bunnies do that

                            You posts are also a little confusing to read with Hip hopping everywhere They are such a beautiful pair of bunns.


                          • babybunsmum
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                              Lol. I’m finally getting them straight but based on personality not name

                              Had bonding session #7 tonight for the first time in common territory. I had them enclosed in a NIC cube fence at “hay time”. They go bonkers as soon as they hear the hay bag rustle so I hoped it would be a distraction from the fact that they were together. It was definitely friskier than in neutral territory but I managed to keep the everybunny injury-free. Hip hunkered down in her dominant position again and this time Hop wasn’t having it. It was a very short session… 10 min… ended when they were both munching on hay.

                              I’m going to try keeping bonding sessions in a small common territory space unless things escalate for the worse. I think this stage will take longer since they both defend their enclosures from the other when we rotate free roam time. Right now I have them each in 3 cube x 2 cube enclosures – 42″ x 28″ on rubber-backed mats. Of course the mats are being slowly decimated. At some point when they’re bonded (she says optimistically) I’ll take out the separating rows so they’ll share a 3 cube x 4 cube space. I just bought a perfect sized piece of vinyl flooring to replace the mats for a fresh start when that day comes.

                              I explained this to them – they’ll get twice the space and twice the free roam time once they get along. I hope they think about that and seriously consider my offer.


                            • babybunsmum
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                                Houston, we have a problem. 

                                In the wee hours of this morning some time before 4am I suddenly woke up to the sounds of a thumpy scuffle coming from the main floor level.  By the time I jumped out of bed and made it downstairs the noises had stopped.  I got to the living room in time to see Hip exiting Hop’s enclosure.  Thinking back to before I went to bed I remembered I must not have latched Hop’s enclosure door shut.  Poo.

                                Hip’s enclosure WAS latched when I went to bed and it was still that way.  She must have climbed out.  I’ve seen her do this before when Hop was out and about enticing her.

                                There were tufts of hair EVERYWHERE and my dining room chairs were askew.  Must have been some tussle.  My poor babies!!!  No signs of blood anywhere so I guess it could have been worse.  I’m going to do a nail trim on each later and give them a thorough check for any marks just in case.

                                I wonder how much of a setback on the bonding this will be??


                              • Paradigm
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                                  They are lovely looking rabbits and the videos are ever so cute.

                                  I would take them back to the neutral territory just to be safe.

                                  The fight probably broke out because Hip was in Hop’s space, as opposed to a space they’ve shared.

                                  If it’s any comfort – Albus and Charlie fought lots and they bonded in less than 2 weeks.

                                  I would suggest extending the bonding sessions. It’s up to you, but I really found that longer bonding sessions helped them interact beyond the first 20-30 minutes. I found that their behaviour in a short amount of time was different to that of longer periods.

                                  While I didn’t allow out-and-out fighting, a small amount of nipping (hair trimmed off only, no blood or circling) and short amounts of humping are good. George and Charlie and Albus and George settled quite easily, but for Albus and Charlie there was no way to progress until they’d settled boundaries and dominance and they can’t do that unless they’re allowed to scuffle a bit. 

                                  I did find that stroking their heads together helped initially, but as bonding moved on I used the advice on TanLover’s blog, which is to remove yourself from the bonding process as much as possible. 

                                  The blog I got lots of advice from starts with 3 buns and bonds up to 9! Her technique definitely becomes more refined but I’ve linked to an early because she builds upon her thought in earlier bonding. Her first bond was so easy, that it’s the articles after that will help you more: thebunnychick

                                  Feel free to disregard though – there’s not really one ‘right’ way to bond.


                                • Love4Bunny
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                                    Lol about the Adele rendition. Yes, I agree, letting them sort it out without humans is important. Chasing never leads to anything good, either, haha. If I rubbed one rabbits cheek, the other groomed them, and vice versa. It was the weirdest thing, but it worked (and they still do it). For me, it was all about consistency, and staying calm so I could intervene when necessary. My buns took longer to adjust to common territory, and they had this weird territorial dynamic in the space just outside the pen. They also had a time limit for being around each other, so I would advise you to be sensitive to that if you hit roadblocks, which it seems like you are, anyways. Like you, I had the thought that I would simply remove the barrier between both pens and combine them, and voila! All would be good in Bunnyland. But I had to rethink the new common space and I’m lucky that my buns are good with renovations and litterboxes, because it never bothers them when I change things up. I am the food and affection bringer, and they are always happy to run me over. Whatever it takes to bring harmony, even stuff that sounds dumb, like minor adjustments, can make a big difference, and I think you will figure it out as you go.


                                  • Paradigm
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                                      Oh, another thought I had – when I wanted them to share an existing pen (I swapped them over each day so neither could get used to it), I bought a rubber mat (also to protect my carpet) and the smell of it made them think it was a new place.

                                      I definitely had to get inventive – I tried smearing food (Albus would eat from Charlie, but Charlie refused to participate), I experimented with the amount of space they had and toys available, etc

                                      I actually allowed some chasing, as long as there was no circling.


                                    • babybunsmum
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                                        Interesting ideas… thanks for the input Love4Bunny and Paradigm!! I’m going to try longer sessions back in neutral territory. I had to put their enclosures on the vinyl floor already. Was trying to save it for some point in the future when they transition to sharing space but I need the flooring to make clean up easier. I’m still switching their ‘bunstruction cardboard boxes’ back and forth and their litter boxes. But yeah, I’m open to the possibility that things may not go according to my plan. In typical bunny fashion they seem to be workin a plan of their own


                                      • Love4Bunny
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                                          I just got to watching the video’s you posted. “Horders” playing in the background was really funny, because the free-roaming bun perked her/his ears up at one dramatic point, with scary music and all. Too funny.

                                          I just had this thought to mention again what may help you: Thor got jealous whenever another rabbit was roaming his room and he saw it. I wrapped the entire cage of the opposing rabbit’s with cardboard when one had free-roam time. I thought my friend was exaggerating when she told me rabbits get jealous (or perhaps it is simply territorial behaviour), but I kinda believe it now. It might be a little late and all that, but I always say if I could re-do bonding, I wouldn’t let them habitate within view till they got along, and some grooming happened. But that’s just me. Hopefully your twinsies come to an agreement asap


                                        • babybunsmum
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                                            They *do* get jealous!! The only time Hip climbs out like spiderman is when Hop is out. I had originally thought that adjacent enclosures would help bonding… for them to get used to each others smells and maybe be less lonely in the interim with them able to see each other.

                                            I put them on a large mat in the middle of my kitchen floor last night for a bonding session while I cooked & cleaned. I fed them greens and there was only one minor scuffle over the eating. There was some circling and humping which I interfered with only when it seemed to be becoming frenzied. Hop was not ok with the humping last night. He defended himself well but after about an hour and a half he took to the vinyl floor behind a cart to get away. Hip followed and I didn’t like where that was going so I brought them both back to the mat and fed them more greens to re-focus them. I called it a night after the greens were done.

                                            The kitchen, though neutral territory, is less and less unfamiliar and is loosing the stress factor I think. I have lots of sorting and tidying to putter at in my basement so I think I’ll have some nice long bonding sessions there. The floor is painted concrete so I’m pretty sure they won’t want to venture too far off of the mat but I’m going to NIC fence them in just incase. Keeping their bonding space smaller until they work some of their stuff out. At least I think that’s what I’m suppose to do. Will double check that point before tonight’s session.


                                          • babybunsmum
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                                              I’m back for an update. Progress slowed since I wasn’t doing sessions super frequently but I haven’t quit! Yesterday was the third or fourth session that was several hours long in a neutral space (basement) without fights / nips / circling so I decided to move the sessions to a common territory – the living room.

                                              I have the same floor mat, hay / litter bin and NIC fence setup that I used in the basement sessions set up in the living room. Never-the-less it started out pretty feisty. Fur flying and circling which I broke up by turning on the vaccum. I also banged pot lids together a few times. Aside from needing tylenol I’m pleased with the results of using the lids.

                                              The session is going on as I type. What has happened is this… Hip (girl who is more dominant) is trying to get Hop (boy) to groom her. He has done so willingly in the basement sessions. But I think because they started out tonight fighting he is staying in the litter bin hiding from her. He just flopped in there. Lol. And Hip is sticking her head in to grab hay without incident. And now she’s casually grooming herself.

                                              The couple of times Hop came out of the bin earlier Hip lunged at him and then he high-tailed it back into the bin. She’s not boxing or biting but thrusting her head down at him for grooms. I think he’s afraid of her from their fighting earlier so he doesn’t trust what she’s doing. I wonder if I should remove the bin for now & just put hay on the mat?

                                              My plans are to continue in this location / setup daily after work. I think with daily sessions of a couple hours minimum they will eventually bond.

                                              Cheers!
                                              C


                                            • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                Sounds like it’s still going pretty good!

                                                Bunnies sure are funny (and frustrating) with the whole bonding business, aren’t they? We’re social and want buddies but will make you go through this huge brou-ha-ha before we will leave together peacefully. And the whole “Groom me RIGHT NOW” thing…..Bunnies..


                                              • babybunsmum
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                                                  Oh boy. Tonight started out calm. They both got to eating hay and eventually both squished into the litter / hay bin. Then out of no where they were chasing and circling and hair was flying. I ran the vacuum and they simmered down. Then Hop groomed Hip. And now they’re snuggling. Can bunnies have personality disorders? Lol.

                                                  I just ended tonight’s 2.5hr session so that they can each have time to run free before my bedtime.

                                                  Cheers
                                                  C


                                                • Love4Bunny
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                                                    Lol about the Tylenol babybunsmum. The whole banging lids thing was hilarious. I used to read Enid Blyton books as a kid (English author) and she had this one character from The Magic Faraway Tree – Saucepan Man – who would wear pots and pans, and would occasionally run about clanging them to scare off naughty little gnomes. That’s the picture I had in my head, haha.

                                                    How much time before they start chasing? If it’s less than 2.5 hours, I would aim for that time, and just work on consistency each day (versus longer sessions), increasing time as they tolerate. I didn’t clue onto this, but I realised much later that 50 mins was like clockwork for tolerance when it came to my buns, and after that point, Thor would give chase.

                                                    Your instincts about the hay bin might be right. It could be that one of them (Hip?) wants to claim it as hers, and will poop up a storm in there, etc. I would remove the bin, and any items that could be claimed as property, and see what happens.

                                                    With my pair, I also found that one not submitting to the other was occasion for the wannabe dominant bun to have a tantrum, and chase the other one.


                                                  • babybunsmum
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                                                      Love4Bunny, that is EXACTLY what was goin on. Miss Hip would enthusiastically submit her head for grooming and Mr. Hop being skittish would dart away. This would insult Miss Hip who would give chase. I stuck with the living room (common area) bonding sessions for 2 weeks. What I found helped quite considerably was letting them have separate free roam time just before their sessions to run off some steam. Last week the chasing subsided day by day and Good Friday’s session there was no chasing.

                                                      Based on this last week I decided to take a chance and all day Saturday I had them penned together in a larger area while I re-org’ed their enclosure to share. I put their separate litter/hay bins in with them side by side. There was a teeny bit of chasing but no nipping and a lot of grooming and cuddling. Especially as I vacuumed. I was also getting ready for hosting my family Easter dinner the next day so they spent about 16 hours in there together until their new enclosure was ready (and I was exhausted). I put them in with a brand new double wide litter/hay bin and their blankies. The floor is lined with the same vinyl flooring that they were on before so there was some similarities and some differences.

                                                      I woke up Easter Sunday to find 2 cuddles buns and no traces of blood or chunks of hair. YAHOO!

                                                      By 4:30 I had 9 family members over for dinner. The first time they were meeting Hip and Hop and the first time for the buns to experience a crowd. It was good timing I think. The buns huddled together adjusting to the hubbub of activity. My niece and nephew fed them greens to warm them up a bit and after we all ate supper I let the buns out for their first free roam time together. They had fun!

                                                      After my family left the buns really let loose. I can see now that I’m in deep deep trouble with those two. Lol. They’re quite a lot more adventurous as a team.  I was used to Miss Pinky who was certainly cheeky for her age but a senior and sedate bun by comparison. Anyways, I’m quite happy right now. Seems my two are bonded! Fingers crossed for no setbacks


                                                    • Love4Bunny
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                                                        Congratulations on your newly bonded pair of mischief makers! It’s nice to feel a bit of rest after all the hard work, and I hope their bond gets stronger over time. There will always be something for them to scuffle about, but it’s so rewarding watching your rabbits become good mates.


                                                      • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                          They are just too precious!!!!!


                                                        • Azerane
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                                                            Awww, I’m so happy for you that they have bonded so well It’s always great to read such positive bonding stories.

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                                                        Forum BONDING Hip & Hop