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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Gooseman again. Update: March 6

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    • jerseygirl
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        Poor Goosey, he’s had to go off to the vet yet again. On the weekend I found a lump on side of his face. I suspected an abscess & the vet agreed when he checked him on Monday. Not sure if it’s related to his teeth or other… He is a sneezy bun so it’s possible it’s bacterial infection. It’s frustrating if that’s the case, as I’ve taken him in twice before with my concern he has resp infection and it was put down as possibly allergy.

        Anyway, the vet gave an antibiotic shot straight into the abscess (A technique he’s had some success with) and I’m doing daily penicillin shots. Man, I hate that stuff. I already stuffed up today’s dose. . I started him on meloxicam also. I asked if I could do this several days after initial vet visit. I’m hoping it will help with inflammation.

        Fingers crossed this treatment plan works. Feeling some déjà vu from when I was treating Jelly for jaw abscess. Ugh

        I’m interested to see if they’ll be any reduction of his sneezing as a side effect. That would confirm for me that it was caused by chronic infection all along.


      • Bam
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          (((((Gooseman)))))

          I’m so sorry he has an abscess, it does sound good to inject abs right into it though, since systemic abs have such a difficulty getting to the root of the problem in a bunny.


        • LBJ10
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            Poor boy. Hope the treatment works.


          • jerseygirl
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              Thanks guys!

              Successful abx shot yesterday -woo hoo! I’ve already stuffed up 2 and missed one day. I’m going to check if worthwhile he stays on it longer. He has revisit on Monday.

              He seems to be going along ok and forgiving of the extra handling he’s getting at the moment!


            • LittlePuffyTail
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                Poor little Goosie…. Sending ((((Get Well Vibes)))))


              • jerseygirl
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                  Thanks LPT!

                  I think the abscess has grown. The plan was for another shot of direct abx today (1 week from his first appt). I’m not so sure if worth it now. Guess wait & see what vet thinks. If he has to have it cut open, I’d rather just go ahead with it now if this thing is fast growing. But if we do a culture, it might be affected by the 2 abx he’s had. Expensive lesson I learned when Jelly had his abscess.


                • Bam
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                    Oh no =(

                    (((((Gooseman)))))


                  • MoxieMeadows
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                      (((((Gooseman))))) ((((Get well vibes))))

                      Keep us updated!


                    • jerseygirl
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                        Thanks for the vibes.

                        I’m a bit delayed with the update! We’ve been in another couple of times. Thankfully, this vet is less then 2 minutes away in the car.

                        On Monday we saw a different vet (same clinic) so he just had a check up, more penicillin and was put on oral baytril.

                        On Friday it was back with the first vet who agrees the abscess has grown. Goose had more abx into the abscess and another pen. shot.

                        Surgery is booked for Monday (tomorrow!) to have this opened and cleaned out. He’ll also have xrays and teeth done if needed. Ugh, the nerves are already getting to me. Very tempted to ring and cancel… but then I felt the abscess tonight and thought that can’t be comfortable. Fingers crossed it doesn’t involve tooth roots or bone. Fingers crossed he’ll do okay!


                      • Bam
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                          I’m keeping my fingers so crossed for you and Goose, Jersey!!!!


                        • LittlePuffyTail
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                            ((((Fingers Crossed))))) Good luck at the vet and ((((Healing Vibes for Goosie))))


                          • jerseygirl
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                              Thank you !

                              Just dropped him off. Now I wait… I hate this part.
                              Im trying to stay positive!


                            • LittlePuffyTail
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                                (((((((More Vibes)))))) and (((Hugs to you))))))


                              • Niamian
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                                  (((((Gooseman healing vibes))))))

                                  Poor little guy, hope all will turn up for the best.


                                • BB & Tiny
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                                    ((((((( Vibes for Gooseman )))))))) You two will be in my thoughts of positive energy


                                  • jerseygirl
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                                      Bad news.

                                      I just spoke on phone with vet and they’ve done the X-rays. It looks like it’s a tumour and its eaten away at part of the bulla of his ear. 

                                      With it being this fast and damage its done, it’s most likely malignant. I asked about if worth doing biopsy as it sounds like it’s obvious what it is. He said they can try but might not get good sample without hurting him and prob be contaminated due to pus around it. I’ve opted not to at this point.

                                      My choices were put to sleep now or palliative care, pts later.

                                       He said to try remove it, he’d have to cut away bulla and end of his mandible.

                                      So they’re going try excavate pus and we’ll keep him on abx and hope it provides comfort. I haven’t seen drastic change in his quality of life as yet, so I’m not ready to put him to sleep. Are we ever??

                                      It didn’t even enter my mind that this could be something other then an abscess.

                                      I did ask if possible the pus is what has eaten away at the bone but he wouldn’t think it would do this. I thought I’d had heard pus could do this. Anyone heard of that?

                                      #feelingsickatheart


                                    • jerseygirl
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                                        Going to ask about if radiation therapy an option when I pick him up. If so, I’ll go ahead and have biopsy done. I don’t want him to go through feeling horrible due to a treatment thought . I don’t know if that’s the case with rad therapy. I wouldn’t do any chemo. So there’s a bit to think about.


                                      • LBJ10
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                                          Oh no, Jersey! I’m so sorry to hear this. Poor little Gooseman.

                                          An abscess can spread to nearby bones and cause an infection within the bone. Abscesses can also grow very fast, so there is still the possibility that it is an abscess. Bone cancer is rare in bunnies.

                                          MediRabbit has an article on facial abscesses: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Treatment/Facial/abs_dental.htm

                                          There is something in there about incorrectly diagnosing an abscess as a tumor in the bone.


                                        • jerseygirl
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                                            Thanks LBJ, I’ll check that out. I also just heard back from someone who’s rabbit had facial bones eaten away by infection.

                                            Hopefully after vet has taken out some of the infectious material, he’ll get a better view of what’s there.


                                          • MimzMum
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                                              My God, Kate, I am so very sorry I am so late to this. I’m sure the prognosis has your head spinning. Not what any of us would’ve expected.
                                              I really hope that it’s not the worst.

                                              I feel you’re taking the best course of action that you can and poor Gooseman has just drawn some really unfortunate cards. Getting abscesses out of the ear canal area is really difficult. But if that’s all it turns out to be, then there are abx beads and such and of course manuka honey as treatments…it will depend what they find upon closer examination.

                                              Keeping my fingers crossed and prayers going that it is just infection causing most of the trouble and perhaps some more aggressive abx therapy may make a difference, but I totally understand the need to keep his QOL. I wish I could do something to help. But I am here if you need an ear to bend. Please don’t hesitate to message me if you need to, you have my email. ((((((((((((((((((((Huge hugs)))))))))))))))))))))) xxxxxxx


                                            • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                I’m so sorry to hear this bad news. I would be doing the exact same as you. Keep him comfortable and lots of love for now.

                                                Still crossing my fingers it’s something that will have a positive outcome.

                                                ((((Gooseman))))


                                              • Bam
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                                                  Dear Jersey, I’m so very sorry to hear this. i’ll be keeping you in my thoughts.


                                                • Q8bunny
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                                                    I’m really sorry, Jersey.
                                                    Chewie and I are sending (((good vibes for Goosey))) and hoping it’s just a mean old abscess whose butt he will eventually kick.


                                                  • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                      So sorry Jersey – like you say the shock must’ve thrown you when you were expecting a report on ‘just’ an abcess!

                                                      Let’s hope the vet is wrong, the infection gets the correct dose and disappears for good and that Gooseman lives a long and happy life (with a bit of bone missing…)

                                                      (((((( good vibes )))))) from the ENTIRE European community (that should do it !)


                                                    • jerseygirl
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                                                        Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

                                                        The clinic emailed me copy of his x-rays if you’re interested. Ive loaded 2 versions, once with arrows where Ive pointed out problem areas.
                                                        This is dorsal ventral view, There was an oblique too but you cant tell much from that one.

                                                         photo 299a9cfa-be25-4023-bed5-89a4ad82792e_zpsgqosayl7.jpg

                                                         photo image_zps98ihz40b.jpeg

                                                        The upper arrow shows the round area of the ear (bulla). It should be round like the one on your left. The second arrow, you can just detect the swelling at his cheek. The last arrow shows deterioration in portion of the mandible. Again, this should look like it does on your left.

                                                        I took him in for a recheck on Friday. Treatment at the moment is penicillin shots, baytril drops in ear (though these seem pointless as the drops dont go down. His would in packed with a sponge. I’m to irrigate the wound also but bit difficult with it packed up…Will need to ring about this.
                                                        The vet squirted saline several times from the hole in his cheek and then back down the ear until it went all the way through.

                                                        Poor Goosey looks awful with fur gone from half his face! He is acting like himself though and appetite is good. The only time I’ve been really worried was tuesday night. 24hrs after the surgery and when pain shot would have worn off. I was to give meloxicam at home but the dose was so minimal, you may as well not give it.
                                                        It took me until Friday to get a clear answer of whether I could increase it. I had rang Wednesday morning but the vet Id seen had the day off. The clinic said they’d get onto him but kept insisting I couldn’t increase dose. Communication breakdown. Friday was first chance I saw vet who did the surgery and knows rabbits can have more meloxicam then what used to be prescribed.
                                                        Please check your vets are up to date with safe, current dosages for pain meds, Pain management is so important!


                                                      • jerseygirl
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                                                          **I meant “Wound is packed with sponge” I cannot go back in edit post without stuffing up photos.


                                                        • Dee
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                                                            Oh Jersey, I’m so sorry. I understand the up and down and devastation of thinking something is benign then finding out it’s not ?. I’m still hoping that in this case they are wrong and it’s an aggressive abcess. My heart goes out to you…


                                                          • Bam
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                                                              I’m glad he’s acting himself and has good appetite. Sending you many more vibes ((((((Jersey and Gooseman))))))


                                                            • BB & Tiny
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                                                                Poor Gooseman !

                                                                The Mandible is the jaw and on the right side it looks a lot fuller than the left side, is that swelling also ?


                                                              • LBJ10
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                                                                  So what did it turn out to be? Do you know yet?


                                                                • Q8bunny
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                                                                    Hoping for a speedy and as-complete-as-possible recovery for your little Goose. I’m glad he’s eating – it’s always so important. (((more good vibes from the Middle-East)))


                                                                  • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                      I’m glad he’s still acting normal, the poor little guy. (((Goose))))


                                                                    • jerseygirl
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                                                                        Sorry for not having responded before now. I wanted to go for next check-up before answering questions. That was today


                                                                        @BunLove
                                                                        , the other bone looks thicker due to the position they had his head for the X-rays. He was better able to look at teeth with head tilted slightly. So the upper/lower don’t lay directly over each other. Hope that makes sense.
                                                                        This is image I got from medirabbit site showing same view in a healthy rabbit. Good for comparison, I found.
                                                                         photo image_zpszcmef2cp.jpeg

                                                                        @LBJ, there isn’t a definitive answer. Vet did see capsule after capsule of pus which seems to be typical of abscesses. He went right back to bone and even scraped some of that back. During surgery, he could see some red tissue he wondered whether was tumorous tissue (given he was looking for tumour after seeing xray) but then had thought it was just tissue that had wrapped around areas where bone had been.

                                                                        I explained todayabout my hesitation to do expensive test that wouldn’t give a definitive answer. And not be very nice on Goosey either, for the way he’d have to go in to get a sample can cause further damage and one that could easily be contaminated.

                                                                        To take out diseased bone, we’d be looking at bulla osteoectomy and mandibulectomy. I’m aware of the first and know it can sometimes be successful but it’s risky. As for mandibulectomy too..? I just don’t know if that would be fair on Goose. I just don’t know enough about it. Vet said in 25 years, he’s only done 3 (don’t think that was on rabbits). He has done 2 bulla osteoectomy surgeries on rabbits. One rabbit lived for another 2 1/2 years, the other had to be euthanised a few weeks after the procedure.

                                                                        He said in these cases, euthanasia is usually recommended. He’d previously told me about another case where he consulted with a leading rabbit vet here. Even that vet said euthanise as the surgery doesn’t have good success rate. I’ll have to check whether he means on rabbits that had bone cancer or osteomyelitis. It may be for both as there really isn’t a cure once infection is in bone.

                                                                        Having said ALL that, he thinks we should continue treating as we are (treating abscess)  because the wound is looking good. It may be a case of abscess building up again, reopen, rinse, repeat… And just trying keep infection at bay with antibiotics.

                                                                        Hope I’m making sense! I’m sort of “thinking out loud” and putting down the thoughts that have been continually running through my head.

                                                                        Goosey is doing well and very tolerant of my ministrations. I’ve resorted to taking him in for his injections each time as I just haven’t been successful enough giving them. I can’t risk his missing too many doses. The only thing he hasn’t liked is getting the ear drops.

                                                                        I’ve been flushing the cavity on his cheek out with saline. Then filling with medi-honey, and plugging up with some gauze. I think the medi honey has really helped and vet was surprised today how good things are looking. It’s difficult to clean out pus as its coming into cavity through various narrow channels. The medi honey seems to have helped clear these a bit.
                                                                        Sorry if tmi everyone!


                                                                      • Bam
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                                                                          This is not tmi, Jersey. I’m sorry you have to go through this. I’m glad the wound is looking good and that Goose is doing well in spite of it all.


                                                                        • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                            Offering some more ((((Well Wishes)))) for Goose and (((Hugs)))) for you.

                                                                            So sorry you have to deal with all this.


                                                                          • LBJ10
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                                                                              That’s so frustrating. Not knowing for sure. But he has been doing better and acting pretty much like himself, so that is good. Perhaps with continued aggressive treatment, you can get it under control enough where the vet can reevaluate things.


                                                                            • BB & Tiny
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                                                                                I hope you are both doing well !


                                                                              • Q8bunny
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                                                                                  Oh, Jersey… my heart goes out to you and Goosey. I’m still really hoping that doing what you’ve been doing so far will eventually do the trick. (((soothing vibes from Kuwait)))


                                                                                • MoxieMeadows
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                                                                                    Oh no Jersey! I’m so sorry to hear this! (((((Vibes))))) to you and Goose!


                                                                                  • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                                                                                      Oh Kate! I can’t believe I’m just seeing this now I’m so sorry! 

                                                                                      I don’t know if you remember but our dog had the Teca Bo too-it’s iffy -she did well but they didn’t expect that. I think the way you are going is the good way to go. Thank you for posting the x-rays. 

                                                                                      My vet was just saying that too-that they can give double the meloxicam dose that used to be prescribed. That’s good news -and it can be given long term too, which at least wasn’t something I knew. 

                                                                                      I’m sending lots of {{{{Vibes}}}} for Gooseman. And hugs to you-it’s exhausting and upsetting, always questioning whether you are doing the right thing and trying to observe for signs of what is working and what you need to do-take care of yourself too!  


                                                                                    • jerseygirl
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                                                                                        Yes, I remember about Mandy. She had radio too, didn’t she.

                                                                                        Oi. The metacam thing. You know, the initial studies

                                                                                         done for higher doses was 10 years ago!

                                                                                        The revised edition of Textbook of rabbit Med recommends range of 0.3-0.6mg/kg up to 2xday and 0.5mg/kg necessary for post-op relief. **
                                                                                        Many say giving 12 hourly is better. Makes sense given the concentration in bloodstream drops to half within 8 hrs.

                                                                                        I think what’s confusing also is the dosing syringes come with kg increments. So with cat metacam, 2kg (or 5 pounds) is only 0.1mg.
                                                                                        Vets may say they can have double their weight- which still only works out to 0.2mg. “Double their weight” dosage is more suitable when giving dog metacam. 2kg increment is 0.3mg. 4kg increment 0.6mg.

                                                                                        **Disclaimer: consult your vet re appropriate doses. If you think your rabbit is on a very low dose, there may be a reason for this given your rabbits unique situation.

                                                                                        Thank you everyone for your continued support. Goosey is still acting himself.
                                                                                        The wound is starting to close. I’m applying antibiotic drops directly in and trying keep things open with gauze. He’s also still getting penicillin shots. Fingers crossed it helps for now.


                                                                                      • MoxieMeadows
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                                                                                          (((((More vibes)))))!!!!!!!!


                                                                                        • jerseygirl
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                                                                                            A quick update on the Gooseman – his wound is now almost fully closed over. I can barely get anything in to pack it open so am going to let it heal over now. I’m sure he’ll be pleased!
                                                                                            He’s having penicillin shots every second day. I’m hoping to take him to 6 weeks in this then give him a break.

                                                                                            Unfortunately, he’s developed a facial palsy. I’m really hoping this doesn’t develop into anything more severe.


                                                                                          • jerseygirl
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                                                                                              Just took this photo to show the “palsy”.
                                                                                              You can see on left side of photo how his upper lip area is pulled back.

                                                                                              It’s strange, I thought with palsy, they affected side had slack muscles, but it’s like his are contracted all the time.
                                                                                              It’s not affecting his eating, there’s no drooling and his eye is fine, at least.

                                                                                               photo image_zpsrvzfueja.jpeg


                                                                                            • redbunbun
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                                                                                                Oh no, I’m so sorry I haven’t been around to read this earlier! Poor Gooseman, what a thing to have to go through – for both of you!

                                                                                                I’m so glad to hear he’s still eating and acting like himself, despite everything!


                                                                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                                                                  Thanks redbunbun. It’s nice to see you back on the forums!


                                                                                                • Q8bunny
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                                                                                                    Goosie sounds like such a trooper!
                                                                                                    (((healthy happy vibes)))


                                                                                                  • jerseygirl
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                                                                                                      Thank you!


                                                                                                    • Vienna Blue in France
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                                                                                                        Palsy = medical term for paralysis – weakness or loss of feeling.

                                                                                                        So yes I would have thought same as you Jersey, not tightened but slackened muscles….
                                                                                                        Unless the muscles have ‘shortened’ due to lack of use…?? (why you have to “stretch” the ankle when the achilles tendon goes)
                                                                                                        Strange…

                                                                                                        (((( Go Goosie ))))


                                                                                                      • Bam
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                                                                                                          So glad to hear his would is healing!
                                                                                                          The facial problem would be a facial spasm, not palsy. I know too little about this, but it appears it can happen when there’s involvement of cranial nerve no 7 due to an ear-infection.


                                                                                                        • LBJ10
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                                                                                                            This is exactly what Wooly has/had. The muscles do seem to pull upward on the affected side. People do call it paralysis though, I suppose because they can’t control the muscles. It has gotten better for Wooly.


                                                                                                          • Bam
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                                                                                                              I didn’t realize that about Wooly, LBJ. I’m so glad it’s improving. I hope Goose’s will to.

                                                                                                              Just to make myself more clea to everybody following this thread, facial flaccid palsy/paralysis is of course also due to involvement of the facial nerve (CN VII). Flaccid palsy seems to be a lot more common than spasm though.

                                                                                                              Jersey, Goose looks so cute on the pic


                                                                                                            • Niamian
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                                                                                                                Poor Goose! So glad to hear that at least one thing is geting batter hope he overpass this as brave little guy he is.
                                                                                                                ((((Vibes))))


                                                                                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                                                                                  I didn’t know Wooly had that either! Glad to hear it resolved LBJ. Did it affect his eating or drinking while he had it?

                                                                                                                  Thanks bam! I was curious as to which nerve was involved. Spasm does seem like a much more appropriate term for what he has.

                                                                                                                  Thanks for the vibes guys. Goosey and I appreciate them!


                                                                                                                • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                                                                    Poor little Goose. Tell him not to worry, the palsy does not affect his super adorableness one bit.


                                                                                                                  • jerseygirl
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                                                                                                                      Lol, okay. Im pretty sure he can’t hear but I’ll give him some kisses for emphasis.


                                                                                                                    • LBJ10
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                                                                                                                        Remember when Wooly’s “sinus problem” turned into an “ear problem”? The bacteria that occasionally builds up in his sinuses began affecting his ear (and eye). That was when the vet decided to do the experiment with the ear wash laced with antibiotics. We did this because we couldn’t get an ear drop that didn’t contain a steroid. One of his symptoms was facial paralysis and droopy ear. His third eyelid protruded a bit on that side as well. It was never so bad that he couldn’t eat or drink. He did have a little bit of trouble with eating hay though. After using the ear wash, he started to show improvement so we kept at it. His facial paralysis has improved quite a bit since then. Sometimes the damage is permanent, but it seems (from what I’ve read) that a lot of rabbits do show improvement.


                                                                                                                      • LBJ10
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                                                                                                                          I should note though that he didn’t exhibit the facial paralysis until AFTER the vet cleaned his ear. The inflammation due to her messing with it is probably what caused it.


                                                                                                                        • MimzMum
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                                                                                                                            Awww…Goosey! (so adorable!) that look is so very Elvis (ahhhthankyouverymuch)
                                                                                                                            I can imagine it has you worried, Jerz. I am so glad to hear he’s eating normally. He’s been through it, poor chap. (And you too, how are you holding up?)

                                                                                                                            Pen-G shots *shudders* gawd I hate those. I can’t manage sub q’s anymore, I’d be worse than rubbish with the medication.

                                                                                                                            Always more healing vibes coming your way for Gooseman! And ((((Hugs)))) for you! xxxx

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                                                                                                                        Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Gooseman again. Update: March 6