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The subject of intentional breeding or meat rabbits is prohibited. The answers provided on this board are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet.  It is your responsibility to assess the information being given and seek professional advice/second opinion from your veterinarian and/or qualified behaviorist.

BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BEHAVIOR Totally at my wits end

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    • Tate
      Participant
      734 posts Send Private Message

        I have two bonded rabbits who over the last few months, WILL NOT use their litterbox. I’m totally at the end of my rope here. The pee and poop where ever they want. I have them confined to the kitchen and its a mess. Every corner, every day has urine in it. I tried to confine them to an xpen and they still wouldn’t use the litter box. I have had 3 litterboxes in there, all different sizes. Ive tried all different litters. They have completely destroyed every rug and blanket I own with their crap and they have ruined the floor in there. I am ready to go to petco and buy a crappy small cage and let them live in their filth for the rest of their lives… I need help!


      • Kokaneeandkahlua
        Participant
        12067 posts Send Private Message

          How old are they? Are they fixed?

          Were they litter trained before? If not, you need a small area to train. If yes, and this is a change, I’d suggest the vet -a big change like that is likely medical.


        • Tia
          Participant
          36 posts Send Private Message

            I can completely relate! I have Roza in a medium dog crate. It is killing me not to take her out to at least let her run a little but it seems like that might just set her back in the litter training (which is going nowhere, currently). I called today and am waiting to get a full price quote on her spay to see if I am anywhere close to having the money to get her spayed.

            I hope you get the litter training under control sooner than later!


          • BB & Tiny
            Participant
            637 posts Send Private Message

              Gosh…


            • ivybunny
              Participant
              101 posts Send Private Message

                You could get them spayed\neutered or put hay inside there litter box they like to eat hay while the poop and pee… but getting them spayed\neutered is probably the best idea!


              • Alyssa
                Participant
                16 posts Send Private Message

                  You are threatening to make living creatures live in feces and urine? You shouldn’t have them anyway.


                • ivybunny
                  Participant
                  101 posts Send Private Message

                    I agree ⤴⤴


                  • Sr. Melangell
                    Participant
                    1708 posts Send Private Message

                      Please calm down, I understand what you are going through, try and contact a vet, tell them everything, blankets can be washed if they are soiled, please don’t put them in a small cage and leave them because you could make the situation worse because animals don’t like to be locked in small spaces, I went through a similar situation when training my rabbit to use his tray, rabbits need love to learn like children, not punishment, rabbits and other animals react better to kindness, we do get angry when things go wrong, but we have to control ourselves not to do bad things, if you leave them in a small cage to do their business it will make the situation worse because they will get covered in urine and poop and get fly strike, infections and cold and could fight, you will end up with a big vet bill, if they are not spayed or neutered it maybe an idea to do that as soon as you can, but it will not sort the problem out over night, you have to give it time, be gentle with them and praise them when they do use the tray, I praise my bunny who is now 3 years old every time he uses his tray and when I get up and see he has used his litter tray.


                    • Bam
                      Moderator
                      16837 posts Send Private Message

                        Tate, I understand that you are desperate, but as you probably realize yourself, sticking two buns in a small cage an let them sit in their own filth is not ok, and threatening to do so is upsetting to many of our members. I don’t think you meant it, but if you did, please consider rehoming them. They are not doing this out of spite. Punishing them is completely useless.

                        Are your buns fixed? How old are they? Did they use to be litter-trained? How long have they’ve been bonded for? Have you moved to a new place with them?
                        Do you have several litter-boxes for them to choose among?

                        Small ragrugs and cheap fleece blankies are easy to wash, and they cost so little that you can buy new ones when the old ones get too many holes in them.Do your buns have toys, hidey-houses, card board boxes to chew (stuff like boxes and toys and the possibility to forage among their hay for the best bits is called enrichment, meaning stuff they can activate themselves in bunny-appropriate way with so they don’t get bored.) A bored bunny is often a destructo bunny.

                        Please tell us a little more about the situation and your buns, and discard the idea of punishing them.


                      • cinnybun2015
                        Participant
                        570 posts Send Private Message

                          I agree with Bam and Pinky. I know that this is a difficult period of time, but punishing a rabbit is not okay. Punishing any animal is not okay. Gently scolding children can make them understand that they can’t do what they did, but animals will just be frightened of a human who hurts them forever.

                          If your bunnies are fixed, I think that it might be a medical problem. If they are not fixed, then it is likely hormonal behavior.

                          I agree with Bam, it might help members on Binkybunny to understand a little more in depth of the situation of you and your bunnies.


                        • BB Administrator
                          Keymaster
                          392 posts Send Private Message

                            I do understand the frustration with a member who says something like this. Of course, it could incite anger so some of the angry replies are not surprising. But lashing out at Tate will not help either as it will turn into an aggressive thread and then most likely nothing will be resolved for the OP and their bunnies. ( I am NOT saying all of you were lashing out.)  I agree with Bam, that Tate most likely did not mean what was said. I bet we have all said things we don’t mean at times when we are at height of frustration.. So the best thing to do is to ask if the OP really meant it or just spewing out of frustration.

                            The OP’s profile states that the bunnies are neutered/spayed already. (unless this is not an updated status)

                            So Tate -You said that this has been happening in the last few months. How were they before a few months ago? Are you for sure both are doing it, or is it mostly one? Assuming they are neutered/spayed, what has changed in your house, in your life in that time period? Sometimes it takes time to think about. New stressors for you (animals are sensitive to stress)? Did they get into a scuffle recently? Even something as little as a litter change, or box change, or something new in their environment. A new person, animal, etc. Have you been around someone elses house more where you would come back with a scent of another animal? These are all of the possibilities, but just some things to get you thinking.

                            It could also be health related – urine infection for one or both. Also, IF one bunny has a urine infection, this can actually cause a behavior change in the bonded mate. So might be a good idea to just double check.

                            Helloworld!!


                          • Chrystie
                            Participant
                            51 posts Send Private Message

                              Well said Admin. I have been really frustrated at times with bunny pee problems. Being able to vent without fear of being judged is a support we ALL need sometimes. Every once in awhile I look at one of my buns and say “you are starting to look like a nice coat!!” of course I don’t mean it !!! These are my children. I just get frustrated sometimes.

                              What I have found helpful is thrift stores. I buy all my bunny blankets and things like that from thrift stores so that my investment into the things they tear apart or constantly pee on, is minimized. That includes rugs for them.

                              Every time we bring in a new bunny, which we aren’t going to do anymore as we are stopping with 5, it is like a total free for all public bathroom in our family room. Seriously, it’s a sea a bunny poo sometimes. having a little handheld vacuum has helped tons!!!!

                              Maybe put newspaper on the floor until the issue is fixed.

                              Right now, my favorite bunny Adaggio, has taken to peeing on the couch. This has been a past issue for my other buns so I have purchased 6 waterproof couch covers and the other day……..I had one clean one left when I went to bed. Yeah, it’s frustrating cause I do tons of laundry but I know he will get over the resentment he feels about Arthur and stop.

                              Good luck and feel free to connect me directly if you need to vent.

                              Chrystie


                            • Tate
                              Participant
                              734 posts Send Private Message

                                I understand how angry everyone is at me, but I honestly dont care. No, I wouldn’t do that to them. V is a 6 year old rabbit… neutered since he was about 5 months old. I spent close to $1000 on his surgery when I first got him… took out my first credit card for him! Lucy is about 3 now… got her when she was 2 months old as a dog attacked her at her previous owners and severely injured her eye… shes been spayed since she was 4 months. They have both been litter trained. They started losing their habits about 2 years ago and then within the last 8 months or so, they have lost them completely and WILL NOT use a litterbox. Its not that they use it 50% of the time… they do not use it at all. Lucy is a flemish giant that weighs 17lbs right now… she is being kept in a 4×4 xpen because I cant quit my job and follow her around to pick up after her. What kind of life is that anyway? She has had her urine tested… she is fine. She doesn’t leak urine, she doesn’t pee or poop under my bed or by the tv. But the kitchen and hallway are all game. Do you know how much poop a 17lb rabbit produces? I’m on my second $500 vacuum… I guess I can do a blood panel on both of them on Monday, but it is super difficult to hit V’s veins because he weighs 2lbs. I’ve been putting that off for a long time, even though I get free blood tests for them as often as I want. Its too hard to imagine him being restrained and having a needle placed in his jugular vein to extract the amount of blood needed and it does not seem worth it at this point. I would rather not continue to do UAs on them, because I also think that inserting a needle into their abdomen to get urine is kind of mean. And painful. And for an animal that gets extremely nervous and stressed out, it doesn’t seem like a good idea to do often. They have both had full body radiographs taken about 6 months ago when they decided to eat a chair… no abnormalities noted. Does that once and for all clear up the vet issue???????????
                                Anyways, I do have some choice words for certain members on here which I will refrain from saying. But you could probably imagine it. I do take care of these animals. They are honestly lucky to be with me. I’ve not deprived them of anything. They eat organic greens. They get organic pumpkin. They eat organic pellets. They drink brita water. When my town had a major wildfire last summer which affected air quality, I arranged for them to stay at my parents house which is 3 hours and two mountain passes away because I was too worried about their lungs and didn’t want to have to evacuate them in the middle of the night if the fire got close. I bought an AC for them. They live better than I do and they seriously lower MY quality of life. So yeah, I am fed up. This is crap. They dont need to be perfect and Id never expect them to be. But this is insane. I can’t have people over to my house because of them. I can’t go on vacation because I would never expect another person to put so much effort into cleaning up after them that I do. There was a time when it was just V and I and that was pretty awesome because he was litter trained and had free roam of the apartment and spent like 95% of his day sleeping on my bed. But since I was at work 50-60 hours a week and on call at night, AND Lucy just happened to come in needing a home because her old owners would not pay for medical treatment, I decided a second would improve HIS quality of life. I’m not going to beg for your forgiveness or for you to empathize with me because if you are a sane person, you would actually understand my frustration.
                                We have lived in this apartment for almost 3 years. We moved here after I first got Lucy. They have been bonded since that point, no fights or scuffles, no new people, no new pets, no lost people, no lost pets.. They DO smell tons of other animals. I handle literally about 50 animals daily, but very rarely do I see other rabbits and even when I do, I make sure to avoid them so these rabbits don’t get angry. But V especially has always had other animal smells around him. Deer, pygmy rabbits, cows, owls… hes smelled everything. Like I said earlier, I bought an xpen. Started with a small 4×4 and then figured I could add once they started using the litterbox regularly. But thats the thing: they don’t. The pee and poop on their blankets. And then lay in it. They do this when they are confined to the kitchen (probably about 8’x6′.. maybe a bit bigger) too… they don’t have a “clean” area. They are literally messy animals. So again, I *need* help. If you would like to criticize, at the very least I would like to see how much you have spent on your rabbits. I promise I will exceed that amount. Not that money equals love, but these animals aint hurtin for much…


                              • tobyluv
                                Participant
                                3310 posts Send Private Message

                                  I know some people who don’t use litter boxes for their rabbits, they use puppy pee pads instead. I know that is an expense, but so is litter, so maybe they come out even, especially if you could get the pads at a discount place or on sale. I know that the pads have attractants for dogs, but I have no idea if they would attract a rabbit to pee on them, and to hopefully use them exclusively.


                                • jerseygirl
                                  Moderator
                                  22338 posts Send Private Message

                                    Hi Tate,
                                    Sorry to hear you’re going through this with your pair. I know/remember how frustrating it is.

                                    I just have a couple questions.

                                    1) Have you tried setting them out with no blankets and towels? So the only absorbent material they have is the litter.
                                    2)Have you tired a drop-thru style litter box. So they’re not standing on any litter, just a screen above it. I don’t have high hopes for that but could be worth a try. In case they decided they dont like feel of litter underfoot.

                                    My next suggestion may be unpopular & I don’t suggest permanently separating them, but have you tried them apart for a trial period? Say for an evening or during time you know they toilet most often.

                                    I can’t go on vacation because I would never expect another person to put so much effort into cleaning up after them that I do.

                                    I don’t know if this is an option, but do you know of a reputable boarding place you could place them just to give yourself a breather? You sound like you need a break. No, it wont solve the issue, but you might feel more energised to tackle it when they come home.
                                    If the carers know what to expect and you’re paying them, would you feel better about someone taking over short term?


                                  • jerseygirl
                                    Moderator
                                    22338 posts Send Private Message

                                      An additional thought: Could you have a mouse in the apartment?

                                      Was this littering habit already occuring during the time of the wildfires? How were their habits when they stayed at your parents. I’m just trying to establish if this is something only happening at home.


                                    • LBJ10
                                      Moderator
                                      16869 posts Send Private Message

                                        Hi Tate,

                                        You may not know this, but I remember you. You haven’t been on in awhile. I want to welcome you back and I’m sorry you’re having trouble with your bunnies. Believe me, I know what it’s like to be frustrated. We all love our pets, but sometimes we are thrown by something they do or an illness that they have that just makes it almost too difficult to bear. I personally don’t doubt that you love your bunnies. I hope you know that.

                                        Now, for solutions. I guess my question for you is how do you have things set up currently? They are in an exercise pen with a litter box? How big is the litter box? What type of litter are you using? From your earlier posts, it sounds like they have blankets. Are the pee problems only at home? I’m just trying to get a visual here so we can help you better.

                                        I do like tobyluv’s idea. If they refuse to use a litter box, then perhaps an absorbent surface would work.

                                        And Jersey also asked a good question. How do they act when they are apart? There have been several cases here on BB where one bunny gives their bad litter habits to the other bunny. I think Stickerbunny experienced this, actually.


                                      • cinnybun2015
                                        Participant
                                        570 posts Send Private Message

                                          Thank you for the explanation, Tate. I’m sorry that you are so frustrated and I’m sorry because I didn’t fully understand before. I like the idea of putting down puppy pee pads.

                                          Also, do the bunnies have free run of your house? I don’t think that it was specified in your explanation, but you said that they peed on the couch… I know that bunnies need a lot of space, but can you confine them in an X-pen laid down with puppy pads? That way, you only have to clean one area, and they can’t soil your couch or rug. It could be for a short time or however much time is needed.


                                        • Chrystie
                                          Participant
                                          51 posts Send Private Message

                                            Hi Tate!! It looks like we are in the same state but different side of the pass. Unfortunately, I haven’t had bunnies long enough to be helpful or have any suggestions you probably haven’t tried. All I can offer is my understanding. It’s totally frustrating!!! It sounds like you treat yours the same way I treat mine…… Better than you treat yourself!!! My children think I spoil them. I’m sure I do but I enjoy it!!

                                            It does seem odd that they both just stopped using it entirely. I think that there might be something to one bunny following the habits of the other. I bet a 17 lb bunny generates a ton of poo!!! Lol!!! I don’t think a little hand held vacuum will do much good! Bad suggestion sorry.

                                            Is it possible to set up a camera for a day and film them while you are gone? Maybe something is going on while you are at work. I have one bunny, Arthur, that only jumps out of his area at night and Moose and Nutmeg like to sit by Adaggio and Luna’s space then as soon as I leave the room they enter said space and cause trouble. But they definitely wait until people aren’t around. Maybe there’s a sneaky behavior. Something happening only when you’re not around that has caused one to fear the litter box or something.

                                            Just a thought as I have a VERY alpha female bunny that really affects my other bunnies behavior sometimes and they do or don’t do things they used to because they are afraid of her.

                                            Chrystie


                                          • BB Administrator
                                            Keymaster
                                            392 posts Send Private Message

                                              Thank you to those members for refocusing back to the subject at hand. I want to remind both Tate and others not to engage in further arguing or lashing out as those kinds of posts will be deleted. Clarification of the misunderstanding has been made so let’s be sure to move on and focus on problem solving. Thank you.

                                              Helloworld!!


                                            • Sr. Melangell
                                              Participant
                                              1708 posts Send Private Message

                                                Hi Tate, I’m sorry, I read your post wrong and hope I didn’t upset you.

                                                Thank you BB Admin for explaining, sometimes when things are in text it is different to speaking on the telephone or face to face with the person if they say something when frustrated or angry, I hope your rabbits are fine and the situation gets sorted soon.

                                                Once again my apologies Tate.


                                              • Love4Bunny
                                                Participant
                                                878 posts Send Private Message

                                                  Tate, sounds like you put a lotta love and time into those bunnies.  I understand that you usually give the bunnies a larger space to live in, and that your bigger bunny is confined. Just a random idea, I wonder if, for the meantime, you could construct a (wooden?) tray – with sides and with a base – for the 4X4 pen to sit inside and line it with tarp, or some other waterproof surface. You could scatter wood stove pellets and place a layer of hay on top in the meanwhile, till you can figure this thing out, and to give you some peace of mind (kind of like a giant litterbox – who knows, they may take to it). It sounds like it would be easier to clean (albeit, a little on the costly side) and would give the bunnies something to do. That way you don’t have to worry about blankets or rugs getting destroyed, and you save the kitchen floor and yourself from additional stress. I know it’s not ideal, but it’s what I would do if I just felt like time and circumstance were not in my favour. I wish you and your bunnies the best.


                                                • SpeedyTomato
                                                  Participant
                                                  42 posts Send Private Message

                                                    I am by no means an expert on rabbits and whatever as I haven’t had mine for more than a couple months, but this suggestion comes from someone who has owned cats and dogs all their lives. When it comes to cats and dogs to get them to stop, you need to buy some special cleaners to clean up what we can’t smell. They’re biological in some way. I assume they have something similar for a rabbit. Maybe using those and giving it a good scrubbing then combine it with the other suggestions might cut down on it exponentially. I know dogs and cats will keep doing it because the smell remains, though we can’t sense it and have cleaned it up with some strong chemicals. Getting rid of that smell might stop it. Not sure if they have those cleaners for rabbits, but you might want to look.


                                                  • RabbitPam
                                                    Moderator
                                                    11002 posts Send Private Message

                                                      Hi, Tate,
                                                      When Spockie was too weak to climb into his litter pan after losing use of his back leg, I was directed to this site that makes a fabric, like a washable carpet, that is used for incontinent pets. I bought several, cut them to size (like your 4×4 xpen) and could wash them frequently as I changed them out. Less edible than puppy pads, too. http://www.montereymills.com/Products/PetFabrics.aspx This is like a carpet which would be soft.

                                                      It is possible that the blankets are making it worse, and if you have a more solid flooring like coroplast tile or seagrass mattes, they may decide to confine themselves to litter. Again, as others have said, changing litter type is often preferable by at least one of the bunnies. Whatever kind you haven’t tried, it’s worth giving it a try. I like Aspen, but I moved from Aspen pellets to Aspen shavings which are both safe and very odor controlling.

                                                      But I don’t use any blankets or fabrics for my current bunny because he will eat it. Smooth flooring has been fine for my buns, so maybe they would do better with a floor cover like what I mentioned, and the litter will provide the soft place to go.

                                                      A bigger litter pan is often helpful as well. Maybe by having 3 they think that they can go anywhere. I wonder if they would use one big one instead?

                                                      Smelling other animals still could provoke marking pee behavior. (Oh, Citrus Magic is a natural air freshener that comes in a hard ring that absorbs odors. Possibly put it out of reach in the room, like the top of the fridge, and see if it controls the other animal odors they can detect. Doesn’t give off a smell, just absorbs.)
                                                      Right now it’s hard to tell the cause of their behavior. I do think you are doing the right thing working it out within a confined space. You could also get another 4×4 xpen and attach it, so they have twice the room but are still within a 4×8 xpen space.

                                                      For no reason I knew, when Sammy was about 5, she started peeing just next to her litter pan. She still used it, but she just regularly went outside of it. I was so frustrated and felt I tried everything. She seemed in perfect health, we didn’t see anything wrong at all, and there was no real pattern to it. I can’t say I solved the problem. I just found that it was persistent and inexplicable. It did get better gradually. However, she ended up with a serious GI blockage, so her digestive tract may never have been all that healthy in retrospect.

                                                      There is a lot of good advice popping up in this thread, so if you can accept the good intentions as they appear and try a few of our suggestions, you may find the situation improves over the next few weeks. Try one thing, try another. It doesn’t have to be insurmountable.

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                                                  Forum BEHAVIOR Totally at my wits end