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Forum BONDING Trio with Guinevere, Morgana, and Avalon

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    • vanessa
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        Here’s my current setup: Morgana and Avalon are smoochy faced snuggle bunnies. She does have an aloofness to her. Aloof towards humans, and other buns. On the other side of the fence – in the same room, are Guin and Lancelot. bonded and living together since October. He prefers humans to rabbits. She is crazy super snuggly, but bossy with him. He rarely initiates a snuggle, and I think that prompts her to get bossy with him. Which makes him more aloof. The cycle. Recently she stopped sharing the litterbox with him. Kicks him out. He can’t use the condo, and has half of the floor space. But at night, they do snuggle, and then he hops out to spend the night in my bedroom. She won’t leave her room. Guin and Avalon hang out with the fence between them. Morgana avoids fence contact with the other bunnies. I believe Guin to the the most terretorial of the buns. My boyfriend and I both think she and Avalon would hit it off nicely. As long as Avalon doesn’t get stupid and start nipping Morgana in exitement. He has done that before – something new gets him all crazy exited and he chases and nips her. But they are getting along well through the fence, and no chasing/nipping from him. Avalon is a snuggle bug like Guin. Although Morgana is aloof, she can also be very demanding of snuggles from Avalon, and they are very snuggly towards eachother. I still believe Lancelot would be happiest on his own. He use to run up his ramp to the third level, roll his box around, and buzz at me. He hasn’t done that since living with Guin. 

        So… this afternoon I’ll put Guin in the bath tub and do a smoosh first with Avalon, then with Morgana.

        Guin is super easy to handle. It will be tricky catching Morgana. Avalon is ok. 


      • vanessa
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          Day 1
          I put Guin in the bathtub, and then Avalon. I caught him in the animal carrier. In the bathtub, he refused to leave the carrier, so Guin hopped in and snuggled and groomed him :-))))) He buried his head under her face :-)))
          Then I put him back and caught Morgana in the carrier. She is more like a wild animal – so once in the tub, she wouldn’t sit still. Wanted to dart around looking for an escape. I was worried that it might spook Guin into attacking her, so I just tried to keep my hands on both their heads. Eventually Morgana calmed down and Guin sat with her, face to face :-))))) No grooming, just a few licks from Guin, but al very very positive. I’m sooooo happy. Guin and Lancelot had a difficult introduction. This seems like a good start. I will try to add Lancelot, but I first want to make sure that Guin and Avalon and Morgana will work. I woudl hate to separate Lancelot from Guin just because I’m not 100% sure of how he feels about it. I just know that he doesn’t play anymore. So although he enjoys her grooming him, and often grooms back, I wonder if he would be happiest on his own. Ideally – the quartet would work, and no-one would be bossy to him, and he woudl be allowed in all the floor space, all the litter boxes, and all the condo areas by the other rabbits. After putting Guin back with him after her 2 speed dates, they snuggled and cuddled in the litter box.

          Bonding is a lot of time and work. I hope they are ready to live together by the time I’m ready to make the new rabbit/bird room. My boyfriend is moving in, with his 4 cockatiels, who are used to having an entire room to themselves. So we will take my 20 birds, (currently in cages int he rabbit room), and his 4 cockatiels, and let them loose int he rabbit room. It will need new flooring. I don’t want birds pooping on the nice blue fleece, so the fleece will be int he condos with a (new) roof), and the entire floor surface will be linoleum sheet(with non toxic non-skid), then drop cloths. I’ll frame the edges with 2×4’s, so the bunnies can’t dig up the linoleum, and I’ll keep the drop cloths taught under the 2×4’s so Avalon and Morgana are less likely to chew them. They are floor destroying machines. So a new floor, woudl be the perfect time to make the room look “new” to the buns, and introduce them to their new common living area. Then I will also be able to take down the dividing fence which is a pain int he $%^& to climb over.

          I’m so happy that today went well. Living side by side really helped. And possibly with Guin, already having been forced to meet a new bunny (Lancelot), may have helped. She wants to snuggle. Her first husbun was extremely super duper uuuber snuggly and I think she misses that.


        • vanessa
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            Day 2: Went well again 🙂 Same deal – Guin (super easy to handle) in the bathtub, then Avalon (catch him int he carrier). She is taking to him quite rapidly. More instant snuggles from her. She appears very relaxed with him. Grooms, explores the bathtub, and snuggles and grooms. He is still nervous – probably a combination of the close contact with Guin, the strange bathtub, and the human. Gun was a little more apprehensive of Morgana, but after 10 minutes, they were face to face, and Guin was grooming her.
            1 hour total for the 3 rabbits. Guin was quite happy to be meeting new snuggle bunnies, she was in her relaxed tooth purring position.
            I watch Guin and Lancelot every day to be sure if splitting them up will be the right thing. They have their arrangement worked out. She gets to kick him out of the litter box, and away from the salad tray, and away from the twin food bowels. (So I gave him his own litter box, cat treat ball, and water bowl). She gets to use the condo, he gets some of the floor space but not the condo, and she will snuggle him from time to time. I honestly think that if he were more snuggly, she wold be happier with him. She is missing having a snuggly partner. I still regret ever keeping my bunnies outside. If I had kept them indoors from the start, Guin’s first husbun, her snuggly boo, would have still been alive. No sense beating myself up, I know. I just feel for her. And at the same time, I want Lancelot to be able to run up his ramp and roll his box around again. He enjoys his free time in my bedroom every night. He is not very active with her, unless she allows it.
            I’ve read a lot of posts here on sudden illnesses, stress, injuries, etc, and that all makes me worry about Lancelot. I don’t want him unduly stressed. The others are healthy fat buns. I adopted him with a history of stasis, diarrhea, malnutrition, eye ulcer, dental problems, and chronic congestion. So I worry about the little dude.
            I’m going to read the other trio forums, and see how long people wait till mixing the 3.


          • vanessa
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              Yay. Guin is hiding in her condo so I can’t reach her, and Avalon is ripping up plastic flooring…


            • vanessa
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                Day 3: Today was stressful. I had Guin and Avalonin the tub and they looked cozy, so I brought Morgana in. I was using one f the carriers to cut the bathtub space in half, and I scooped up Morgana ina towel. Mistake. I shoudl have used the other carier. She struggled int he towl and got out of my arms and landed on the fot bucket in Lancelot’s half of the room, as I was walking out the room. It was about a 2-foot leap for her. I scooped her up again and got her in the tub, on the smooth tub surface. Yesterday I had her ont he bath mat in the tub. Today on the smooth surface, she freaked out. So with one hand on 3 rabbits, I grabbed the mat and put it in the tub. They all hopped on the mat and calmed down. Morgana got snuggly with Guin, which was a suprise to me. But her initial fright had spooked Avalon, and he was nervous and thumping. SO he wasn’t responding to Guin, and she nipped him. Then he bit back and they locked onto eachother. I separated them with a towel. I didn’t find a wound on Avalon, but Guin got a tooth mark. So I calmed them down again, and Morgana and Guin continued to snuggle. But Avalon wouldn’t calm down. He remained afraid. I put Morgana away, got Avalon and Guinin a smoosh, and then put them all away. I felt really bad for stressing them out. I made 3 mistakes. 1: I shoudl have used the carrier to catch Morgana. She is still too afraid of me to be picked up. 2: She freaks out on smooth surfaces. I should always use the mat in the bathtub. 3: I left the bathroom to check on dinner. Until I can sit with them for an hour with no incidents, I shouldn’t leave them alone. I should time the sessions before I start dinner. I really really feel bad about how today went. I hate seeing my bunnies stressed. It breaks y heart. Avalon and Morgana hide when I come into the room now. But Guin is more snuggly wth Lancelot. He is her source of comfort after the stresful bonding session.
                Once they were all back, Guin shot a look at Avalon. The 45 degree ear/tail combo. Very brief, but I saw it. She and Morgana kissed through the fence. I’ll have to keep an eye on Avalon and Morgana. Avalon tends to get buggy sometimes. New encounters sometimes cause him to chase and Nip Morgana.
                It’s tricky having so many different bunny personalities.


              • vanessa
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                  I’ll wait a few days till I see Guin’s bite mark has closed. I should use the hour I would have spent with bonding, on just sitting with them.


                • vanessa
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                    I don’t think I can do this trio thing. I went in to say hi to them, and Guin is still snuggled with Lancelot which is good, but she grunted at me to get away from her. She is mad at me. I can’t handle that. I can’t hurt my bunny’s feelings like that. Avalon and Morgana haven’t snuggled yet. I’ll see how everyone (them and me) feel a few days from now. Maybe I’ll just keep working at Guin and Lancelot’s relationship. I dont’ know how to get him to feel free to play, but this trio is hard on all concerned.


                  • vanessa
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                      By the time I went to bed last night, Guin was still snuggling and grooming Lancelot. I gave him his antibiotics, which annoys him, which annoyed her, and they went to their separate corners. Guin has forgiven me though 🙂 I gave her the stuffie back. She has not stopped grooming it. Perhaps that will cheer her up, and give Lancelot a break. He is still acting quiet – could be from his spurs which are going to be filed on December 21. Avalon and Morgana were snuggling this morning. I’ll let them all relax and wait a few days and decide if I’ll continue.


                    • vanessa
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                        Guin is being so good this evening again. Snuggling and grooning Lancelot – his fur loks like it has been shampooed, conditioned, and blow-dried. Like he went to the Guin Bunny Spa 🙂 Perhaps the bonding stress with Avalon and Morgana pushed her right back to Lancelot, which is great. The stuffie might be helping as well. (thanks to stuffie), the more likely she is to be nice to Lancelot. One of my clues that she is being nice to him – is that he comes to visit me int he bedroom briefly, and then goes back to his room, instead of spending the night in my bedroom. I think I should wait on trying the trio/quartet untill Avalon and Morgana are more comfortable with being handled. So I won’t write about the trio again., I’ll just keep working on Guin and Lancelot’s relationship, and on providing Lancelot an “out” /escape, if Guin is being bossy.


                      • vanessa
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                          Well, here we go again… Next week I want to start bonding the trio again. I’m still convinced that Guin and Lancelot aren’t a good match. She is super snuggly, but he prefers to be with humans, or by himself. He has learnt how to be semi-snuggly with her, and likes her attention, but but he doesn’t seek her out, spends a lot of time out o the room, and still hadn’t used the bunny condo since living with her. This evening, Guin and Morgana were exchanging kisses through the fence. So – I’ll work with one pair at a time, and once they are getting along nicely, I’ll add the 4rd bunny. I suspect Guin and Morgana might bond easier, but I’ve read to start with the more dificult pair, which would be Avalon – since he fights back. So – once I’ve made up my mind on who to start with, Avalon or Morgana, I’ll take them for a car ride in a carrier.


                        • vanessa
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                            Day 1: 

                            Here’s a pic of Guin snuggling one of her stuffies. Poor girl doesnt’ get enough snuggling from Lancelot. She seems lonely to me sometimes. I put her and Avalon in a carry crate for a 15 minute car ride, 2 hours in the crate while my boyfriend and I worked on installing flooring, another 15 minute car ride, then back to their room. Guin was relaxed enough to eat hay and chickweed in the crate. Probably since she has traveled in the crate on numerous occasions, and this is her 3rd bonding (Merlin, then Lancelot, now Avalon), and she is craving bunny snuggles. She licked his head a few times, but he just moved to the back of the crate and sat still and waited for it to be over. So she moved back there and sat really close with him, and continued to eat hay. It was a good day for her, he was really glad to be back in his room. He held his toilet business till he was back in his litter box. 


                          • vanessa
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                              Day 2:
                              I put them in a laundry basket that was really a bit short, so tomorrow I’ll find a taller basket. They snuggled while I cleaned up in the back room. He is still afraid and doens’t interact a whole lot with her. They did smoosh faces, and she licked him a few times. She tried once to bite his but to make him groom her, but when I see her geting her face down there, I turn her around so they are face to face again. So we did that for an hour. She is very confident. He is still nervous. When I stepped out of sight, they both perescoped and tried to hop out of the basket. So I need a taller basket that they can interact while thinking I’m out of sight. They act differently when they can see me.


                            • vanessa
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                                Day 3:

                                Back in the crate while I watch a tv show. I think Avalon is more afraid of being handled – than he is of her. They are chilling and doing a small amount of snuggling. No bad signs so far. She has licked him afew times, he has shoved his face under her chin, but not licked her just yet. I’ll let them sit inthe crate together for an hour and a half, then put them back. 

                                B


                              • vanessa
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                                  Day 4:
                                  Same as yesterday. An hour in the crate. They show no signs of discomfort with eachother, and I still feel that Avalon’s apprehension is with me handling him, and being in a strange place out of his regular living area. I’d like to move them from the crate to a 4ft square bonding pen, but as soon as he has space to move, he thumps and tries to hide. I suspect that I should just keep going, and the bonding will also get him more used to being handled. That’s how it worked with Guin. She was also afraid of being handled, scratched, fought, etc, and now she and Lancelot are the easiest of my bunnies to handle. I can pick them up just as easy as scooping up my cat. Anyway – I’m hoping that a few days in close quarters will help them trust eachother. I’ll do it again tomorrow, but Friday and Saturday I won’t be able to do any bonding. Sunday I’ll pick it up again, and Monday I want to put them in a 4×4 pen for a few days in a row before adding Morgana.


                                • vanessa
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                                    Day 5:
                                    Back from my weekend trip, did a session tonight. I used an x-pen and made a triangle with 3 sides. Put hem in the triangle. Initiall it was a square, but Guin went strait to nip his but, so I pushed the fence in to a triangle. Less space for her to chase him. After getting them settled down, she still tried a few times to nip him. I turned her around so they were facing the same direction. Not much interaction. They just sat really close. Then I slid the cardboard floorto move the whole ensemble (I was cleaning up a room), and Guin got nervous, and ended up grooming his ears. Everything for him, is stress bonding. He gets stressed when I pick him up, move him from his room, and put him in a strange room. But she has been handled and moved so much that she was very relaxed. Se was annoyed at me for disturbing her, but after a few seconds in the triangle, she had her relaxed ear position. He has not yet made


                                  • vanessa
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                                      Sorry about that half sentence –
                                      He hasn’t yet made an attempt to groom her, but he does sit his his head shoved under her body. So it looks like he is stressed and trying to seek comfort, while she is super confident, and somewhat nippy.


                                    • vanessa
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                                        Day 6:
                                        It is sure easy to comment on someone else’s experience, but bonding yourself is tough.
                                        I didnt’ have time today to get the big dig crate ready – I wanted to give them a litle more space. So I put them in the medium dog crate again. There was some initial nipping by Guin and I was really hoping that by now she would have learned to be nice… So I walked around the house for a few minutes holding the carrier. At the moment they are looking god. I’ve been looking ove rmy shoulder at them for about 45 minutes now, and she us still grooming him. I’ll try and get the larger crate ready for them tomorrow. Hopefully after a few days, I’ll feel comfortable to add Morgana. I really think Guin and Morgana will hit it off quite nicely, but I want Avalont to accept her first.


                                      • Paradigm
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                                          Sounds like its going really well, Vanessa!

                                          It really is much harder than it sounds… I knew it would be hard, but it wasn’t until I did it that it hit me.

                                          Not sure that we’ll go to four, but you never know.


                                        • vanessa
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                                            Thanks Paradigm. Once I have these three bonded, I’ll consider adding a fourth too.
                                            Today I put them in the large dog crate, but the initial settling down involves some nipping, and I wasn’t comfortable with the amount of space they had. Avalon was thumping, and when he made the squeaky stress sound, I put them back in the medium crate. They settled down and Guin started grooming him. Avalon would be thumping no matter what the new space. When I first brought him inside, he thumped for a week in the new bedroom. At the moment she has her face under his chest and he is eating hay. So that’s good. I gave them lettuce and the each munched on it. I think for a few more days I’ll keep using the medium crate, and I’ll keep putting veggies in with them. Guin just had her face under his, and he bumped her head up and shoved his head under her. He and Morgana do the same thing. It’s really cute. But when Guin didn’t groom him on request, he nipped her and they scuffled for a second. I’m glad at least that he interacted with her. Up till now he has been pretty much sitting still waiting for it all to be over.


                                          • vanessa
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                                              Day 8:
                                              Back in the crate. Avalon is still not happy about being in the crate, and thumps a few times. They aren’t interacting at the moment. Just sitting there. This weekend I’ll take them for a car ride, and I’d like to put all three in a 2×2 area. Perhaps Avalon will relax some with Morgana in the space.


                                            • vanessa
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                                                Well this evenign was a bit difficult. No interaction in the crate, then some nipping and a scuffle, and then Guin groomed Avalon. But he still hasn’t warmed up to her. Maybe they were also getting stressed about being in the crate. So I put them in the bathtub and petted then a while. But he was still thuimping int he bathtub. I haven’t wanted to bring Morgana in untill Guin and Avalon were doing better, but maybe Morgana will help Avalon to relax. Then I put them back in their room for the night.
                                                And then to make me laugh, Lancelot hopped into their crate and gobbled up the cilantro I had given them 🙂


                                              • vanessa
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                                                  Day 9:
                                                  Not much interaction today. I had Guin and Avalon in the bath tub and they didn’t approach eachother. I’m sure they would have if I wasn’t there. Then I put them in the crate. Still nothing. No grooming this evening. The crate is easy t use because I can haul it around with me and still keep an eye on them. But tomorrow I need to use a larger space. I dont’ have a nice sized bs, so it wil be the bathtub.


                                                • vanessa
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                                                    Day 9:
                                                    Decent progress. I was worried I wouldn’t have much time today because we decided that today was my boyfriend’s valentines day, and tomorrow is my valentines day. So I took him out for movie/dinner, and tomorrow we’ll swap. Anyway – not a whole lot of time today for bonding – so I put them in the bath tub, and they just sat a foot away from eachother and didn’t budge. Then I put them back in the crate, but I had to chec on the other animals before bed time, so I put the crate on the bed with my boyfriend, and asked him to gently rock it, if the scuffled. They behaved, and he gave it a continuous swaying swinging motion. That was actually really good. When I got done with the other animals and was ready to put the rabbits back, they were snuggling and she was grooming him. SO I put htem in the tub once more, she hopped out of the crate, I remoed the lid, and she hopped back in – almost, and stopped with her face next to his. That was a nice close pass. They both smooshed their heads down, and I petted then and called it a night. I keep saying this – and then don’t get enough time – but tomorrow I want to try adding Morgana.It was a session today.


                                                  • vanessa
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                                                      Day 10: The trio in a 4-panel square. I kept Guin’s face next to theirs. When she turns around, she tends to bite their butts. 

                                                      And then Morgana swapped plavces to be next to Avalon. Guin was still happy though, and settled into a comfortable position clsoe to Morgana. She likes Morgana.

                                                      And then Avalon separated fromt he girls. He has been quite displeased with the bonding experience. Morgana wasd surprisingly relaxed. All three were grooming themselves. Guin is quite relaxed here and enjoying sitting next to Morgana. But I still made sure to keep her face away from Morgana’s butt…

                                                      And then Avalob turned towards them and they sat like this for 5 or so minutes, before I put them away. He is still unsure of the whole thing. I was hoping to have Guin and Avalon further along before bringing Morgana in, because I figured Guin would like Morgana a whole lot more, and might be nippy towards Avalon in the process, almost guarding and jealous. So I’ll keep on keeping her face away from their butts, because that was a deal breaker for Lancelot. (He didn’t appreciate the nips, and withdrew from Guin). With Guin being as nippy and bossy as she is, I have no idea how she and her first husbun were so crazy snuggly and in love. Since he passed, she is nippy and demands attention. Maybe because she misses it so much. 

                                                      It was a good session.


                                                    • vanessa
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                                                        Day 11:

                                                        Going good. Slooooow but good. I put the three in the x-pen again and Guin went strait to snuggle Morgana. Morgana is still quite relaxed. Guin is enjoying snuggling. Poor lonely snuggle bunny. Avalon is still not having it… He’s in the corner, but looking less stressed than yesterday. I gave them a pee pad and some hay, because they seem to get agitated when they can’t pee in a familiar lookign litter box. they hold their bladders, and when I put them back, they bee-line for the litter box and make big long pees. Anyway… not any movement – just sitting and snuggling. Avalon is thumping lightly every few minutes, but still less stressed than yesterday. 


                                                      • vanessa
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                                                          Well we had one scuffle, Guina and Avalon nipped eachother and Morgana tried to get out of the way and got nipped. It only lasted about 2 seconds before I had my hands on their heads. Then they settled back down to a tight snuggle. Avalon is still not happy about it. I think tomorrow I’ll do a crate with Guin and Avalon, adn then Guin and Morgana.


                                                        • vanessa
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                                                            Tonight I have Guin and Morgana in the crate, next to me while I watch a show, so I can rock it if Guin starts to get nippy. I had them in the hallway, but Guin started nipping Morgana’s butt. I sure hope this works. I keep thining back to her and Lancelot. She was smitten, he wasn’t a groomer, so she got irritated and started nipping him. So he spent more and more time away from her. I sure hope these two can discover that they like her before her nipping chases them off too. I’ll let them sit in the crate for another 30 minutes, then swap Morgana for Avalon.


                                                          • vanessa
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                                                              Day 13:
                                                              Guin and Morgana settled down in the crate on the couch, so I let them snuggle for about an hour and called it a night.
                                                              This evening I worked late and when I got home, Guin was hiding in a box and didn’t want to come out. It’s late, I’m tired, I’m going to bed. But… during the day while I was at work for so dreadfully long, I asked my boyfriend to come over and check on my animals. I had some work done at the house today, so I locked the bunnies in their room. That meant Lancelot couldn’t access his bunny flap and run around the house. When my boyfriend came to check on them, Lancelot was snuggled with Guin in her litter box. It’s been a while… so I decided that I’m going to still continue to try the trio, but I’ll also teach Guin how to use the bunny flap. Perhaps if she and Lancelot can spend more time together, she’ll be nicer to him. But I dont’ want to lock him in the bedroom every day – he enjoys unnign around and he is such a well behaved house bunny. So while he is spending time out side the bunny room, perhaps Guin can join him. I’ll see how it works. She is very bossy and he is very submissive…
                                                              Watching Guin and Morgana and Avalon – Guin is super nippy with them. Morgana is really sweet and submissive, and would have no problem being pals with Guin, except that Guin gets bossy and demanding, and nips when she isn’t getting enough grooming.


                                                            • vanessa
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                                                                Day 14:
                                                                Difficult. I put the three in a travel cage. It’s about 30×20 inches. A good size for a trio bonding. But Guin is still nippy. Avalon wasn’t happy with her and snapped at her face. Poor Morgana is the only one who is completely calm and non threatening. She moves around, eats hay, and acts quite happy. But when any of them move, I need to keep my hand on Guin’s head to leep her from nipping them. And still, if they don’t groom her, she nips. I think I need to do some couples with them. Tomorrow I’ll put Guin and Avalon together.


                                                              • vanessa
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                                                                  Day 15-16
                                                                  We took a break.

                                                                  Day 17:
                                                                  Avalon and Guin are in the crate on the couch with me while I wathc a show. They’re ignoring eachother. Avalon is at the nack ot the crate facing the side, Guin is in front of him facing forward. He is thumping every now and then.

                                                                  This morning Guin stepped out of the bunny/bird room when I came in to feed them. She bolted down the hallway and into the back room where Lancelot spends most of his time. This is the first time she has stepped otu of the room with the intent of exploring. Lancelot was unhappy to see her… He crowded my feet and kept following me. Poor little guy. With that much space, they did fine together so I let her hang out all day. She had a blast. She did chase him a few times. This evenign I’ll put her back in her room so he can have a break from her. She hasn’t figured out the bunny flap yet and I havent’ showed her. I think I’ll let her out int he mornings, and put her back in the evenings, after a bonding session. That way she and Lancelot can still spend time together, and I can keep up with the bonding/trio.


                                                                • vanessa
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                                                                    They started hiding from me everytime I came into the room. So I’m giving them a break. Now they are back to letting me pet them. Guin still lies up against the divider fence with Avalon and Morgana lying up on the other side. They seem to interact well on opposite sides of the NIC fence. I suspect that nothign in my house is neutral for Guin anymore. Maybe the kitchen is the only neutral spot I have left. So I’m going to let them have a break while I figure out a new location. In the mean time, I showed Guin how to use the bunny flap, which she uses. Lancelot doesnt’ appreciate seeing her in his room, but hey – it keeps her occupied. She just started chewing through the linoleum floor… I need a new floor plan, I want to make a new buny condo, and make their room loo all new – so Lancelot can have an easier time with her. It will probably be a few weeks before I write again on this topic.

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                                                                Forum BONDING Trio with Guinevere, Morgana, and Avalon