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Forum BONDING Zee/ Ripley update

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    • deadneonflies
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        The time in the neutral area hasn’t been getting better or worse, just pretty much the same as ever.  So my husband started letting them out in the living room together for exercise/ play time while he is cleaning their cage.  They started fighting pretty badly and pulled  A LOT of hair out of eachother (no broken skin though).  He had a hard time getting them apart, but eventually did and seperated them.  The next week I did the same thing, let them out of their cage together in the living room.  Again, they started fighting.  This time, when I tried pulling Zee off of Ripley, she was lached on there so good, as I pulled Zee, Ripley was pulled too.  It was crazy!  So I decided to do a two week break with their bonding, not even letting either  of  them out of their cages at all except for cleaning, and even then still seperated.  Anywho, almost at the end of week 2, around midnight I was hanging out on my couch reading my book and i heard the cage rattling pretty badly so I looked over and they REALLY trying to get at eachother through the cage.  They were on their hind legs shoving the cage at eachother, nipping through the cage, ears back and tails UP. It was like a bunny thunderdome in there!!!  So nuts.  I made a rachet and broke them up and distracted Zee so they would eventually give up and sit in their seperate corners.  I was able to take video of it towards the end.  Its bad footage due to lack of proper lighting, but you get the jist.  Heres the link.

        What is happening with my bunnies?  Will they ever bond.  I continued their bonding break and right now as I write this, they are doing their first bonding date since all of this began.  So far so good right now, no fighting, nipping or anything.  They are pretending eachother doesn’t exist.  I know that is good news and to end on a good note.  

        What else can I do?  Just keep at the small bonding sessions?  Is there any hope for this?  Ripley had a really hard time getting a home (she had been at the adoption place for about 3 years}, I really don’t want to have to give her back.  I feel so bad for her and I know I can give her a good home, but I want them to bond!!!  I wish there was someone out there who could just bond them for me and give them back completely bonded hahahaha, wishful thinking I guess.


      • Bam
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          Keep up doing really short sessions. They don’t have to physically interact at first. Some bonds are difficult, but persistence is key. Don’t be impatient (or try not to be).

          You can try feeding them something extremely yummy, so they eat in the same space (not close by each other, feed them each in their chosen place). If a bunny eats with another bunny present, it’s a non-aggressive action. But don’t let them fight over treats, of course.


        • deadneonflies
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            UPDATE!!

            For the last two weeks I’ve been super persistent on their bonding sessions. I’ve been doing them for 2-3 times a day. Sometimes short, sometimes long (1-2 hours). We feed them dinner veggies in their bonding area as well. They still scuffle and nip, so they arn’t bonded yet, but Zee is grooming Ripley more, but can be aggressive with it and it aggrivates Ripley.

            Their bonding area is in the kitchen, on the hard floor, so neither one of them ever gets super comfterable. Yesterday I put a blanket down for them due to the cold these days. They were pretty happy about the blanket, both were trying to dig through it etc, but I noticed they fought a lot more than usual!! It was crazy. And the fights were bigger too. Were they getting territorial about the blanket?

            I’m trying to stay positive. My new years resolution to bond them by any means necessary! haha. I also take them with me twice a week to the bunny place I volunteer at for a change of scenery for them. I also say a little prayer every bonding session. Hopefully one of these days they’ll click. Its been almost 4 months now. Jeez, time flies.

            SCARY EVENT:::

            So the other day I had the buns in the car with me (they were in their traveling crate in the front seat), and some car cut me off and I had to suddenly slam on my brakes so I wouldn’t get hit. Immediately the crate FLEW with giant force onto the front seat floor, upside down!!! I was so scared for the bunnies, I THOUGHT I KILLED THEM!!!! OMG. So I pulled over and carefully reset the crate, opened the top lid and examined them both. I took Zee out of the crate and held her for a few minutes and consoled Ripley still in the crate. I was bawling by this time in some parking lot. I was so scared I hurt them. I carefully placed Zee back in the crate and drove to my destination. When I got there I set up a cage and monitored their behavior and movements the rest of the day and they seemed unharmed by the incident. I think I was more upset about it then they were, just shaken up and fur EVERYWHERE in my car. Anywho, scariest thing ever!!!! Just wanted to share their brush with death and let everyone know they are A-OK.


          • deadneonflies
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              Here are some cute shots of Ripley.  The one with both of them, I placed them next to eachother and gave them lots of head rubs.  When I stopped, Zee ran away pretty quickly.


            • Dee
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                Aw, cute!!! I know this is a late response, but I’m catching up on Binky Bunny today and saw this. I’m so glad you and the bunnies are OK! That is terribly scary, one of my big fears with transporting the rabbits. I guess they’re pretty durable, huh?!

                Hope they are getting along well ☺.


              • deadneonflies
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                  No, they still are not getting along.  I’ve been doing dates 2-3 times a day, and take them with me to the rabbit place I volunteer at.  We are trying to schedule a bonding boot camp with them with some fresh eyes to see what may be the problem.  I’m also going to try and do a long distance driving trip with them and see if that helps.  We are trying to pull every trick out of the hat with these two stubborn buns.


                • Dee
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                    Wow, I really admire your dedication. For creatures with brains the size of a walnut, rabbits sure are stubborn! It seems that you’re getting some positive response from them, just not enough to actually trust them together. I wish I could help but hopefully someone from outside during their bonding boot camp will be able to give you insight.

                    I love you thought of sending them off to be bonded and having them come home happily married ?! Wouldn’t that be nice… I thought that some shelters offered that actually, but I’m sure you would have found them.

                    Well, I’ll be looking forward to seeing how your bunnies are doing together! Just had to tell you how cute they are too. Ripley with his little mane and that expression on his face, and Zee looks like she was divided right down the middle and painted on one side- awesome markings ❤.


                  • deadneonflies
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                      Right now I am not ‘sending them off’. I will be with them at the bunny bootcamp day. Now, I’ve had Ripley for about 4 months now. At the 6 month mark, if they still arn’t bonded, I will look into the ‘sending them off to be bonded’. The lady here that does it at the rescue I volunteer at is SUPER busy, and I don’t want to burden her with more things to do, so I’d like to avoid it. But in the end, I will do anything for my bunnies, so I will talk to her about possibly having her take them for a little while. We will see. I will keep everyone updated on their progress.


                    • deadneonflies
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                        Hey everyone.  Here’s an update on the girls:

                        So the past several weeks have pretty much been consistently the same with the bonding.  Can usually exist together no problem, but Ripley will nip Zee’s butt and she’ll run away.  So we were recommended to use a stroller that zips up and around, so they are FORCED to be with eachother.  This seems to be a lot easier for us as well cause we can set it up next to the couch while we watch tv and have them in there ALL day!!!  I put a litterbox along the bottom and stuff it full of hay so they are comfterable.  Ripley does not mind the stroller.  She will happily bunny loaf in the far end of it and mind her own business.  Zee on the otherhand begs near the front of the stroller, trying to pursuade us with her cute to let her out.  This has been going on for about 2 weeks now.  

                        Anywho, so I’ve been home from work due to bronchitis and I thought yesterday was a really pretty day to set up a pen outside and let them have some bonding time on the grass. After 5 minutes, Ripley started chasing Zee around in circles biting.  Fur tufts were everywhere.  I broke it up and abandoned that idea.  Now we are back to the stroller.  When they nip I give the stroller a bit of a shake to stop them.

                        The weird part about them is that when I put them back into their seperated living pen, they sit near eachother on the divider.  They full on flop down next to eachother!!!  But when they are actually together during bonding sessions, they don’t do well.  I am so baffled by their behavior.  It’s been 6 months now, and I am so over this.


                      • Mikey
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                          If the same bonding routine isnt working at this point, i think you should stop and try something new. Give the bunnies a few days to rest and relaxng (no bonding), during this time, you should come up with a new bonding plan. Have you tried using the stuffed animal technique? Youll need two small stuffed animal toys. Put one in each cage for each bun. Let them do whatever they want with it for about a week. Then swapped stuffed animals. That way the two buns can attack the stuffed animal previously owned by the other bun. When they attack it, they will be met with no reaction since its just a toy. It can help a lot. Ive seen stories with this tactic where the aggressive bun becomes super cuddley to the toy and when they go back to bonding, the used to be aggressor would try to cuddle the bun it used to attack. Perhaps it could be worth a try for your two as well


                        • Love4Bunny
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                            You mentioned that you take your bunnies to the rabbit place you volunteer at. Do you have other rabbits scent on your clothes, and if so, do you think that that may contribute to the difficulty with bonding your pair?


                          • deadneonflies
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                              UPDATE:

                              The bonding is going well, and not so well. They are SOOOO close, but not 100% there yet. Therefore, I took a week of vacation time off of work and am dedicating the entire week for bonding. I am going to try and get to the point of doing overnights and stuff with them too. I have also configured a webcam and set up a twitch channel of this bonding week. If you’d like to stop in and check them out, I welcome all comments, advice, suggestions and questions!! Thanks.

                              https://www.twitch.tv/bunderdome


                            • BinkyBunny
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                                They are definitely interested and yet wary of each other. I found the last 4 hour recording very interesting. I didn’t watch the whole 4 hours! But I would sift through bit by bit and find the points in which they were mirroring each other and approaching each other. It looks promising but I can see where the distrust can cause fights. It also seems as if human interaction can cause troubles during bonding. My suggestion is do more bonding sessions but not as long for the next month. So instead of 4 hours, maybe 2 hours. I’m sorry but which one is the the black one and the Harlequin Mix? The Harlequin Mix definitely seems to feel a bit more confident in his environment and as soon as a human got in the mix, that one felt a bit more dominant for the moment.. (like when you cleaned up the urine) your husband petted the Harlequin Mix (HM), that bunny got a bit more feisty. The black one ended up grooming, but also expected to be groomed back and the HM wasn’t havin it just yet.

                                So for now, I would just end on a good note if possible, even if that means ending earlier, before the fights break out so a trust can be built.


                              • deadneonflies
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                                  Wow, thank you so much for the input!!!  Zee is the black and white one.  Ripley is the black one.  The guy was my husband.

                                  Basically the pen is set up in the middle of our kitchen.  My computer is about 2 feet away from the pen and out of camera view.  So the buns have someone watching them the whole time basically.  Zee is very human friendly!!!  She actually gets along better with humans.  Shes not aggressive to other rabbits, but she simply ignores them.  We see this a lot during Hoppy Hours.  

                                  Ripley is the opposite.  She is not used to humans at all, is very shy, reserved, and almost fearful of people.  It has taken us a LONG time to be able to get her to even let us pet her without her shying away.  She acts more like a bunny than Zee does.  Hence the grooming situation….

                                  From my observations and research, I’ve narrowed it down to this… Zee is submissive with Ripley, but domianant with people.  She is the optimist bunny with humans, but is submissive with other rabbits.  Zee is a “bottom beotch” with grooming.  She wants to be groomed, but doesn’t know HOW to groom other rabbits.  This is where the nipping comes in from Ripley.  Ripley will groom Zee, and for a long time too, as you can see in the video.  But when she WANTS TO BE GROOMED by Zee and Zee doesn’t groom her, that’s where Rip starts to nip and it freaks Zee out and she goes running.

                                  This is the LAST hurdle to go through.  Sometimes, and very rarely, Zee will groom Ripley, but she isn’t very gentle.  Rip will flinch, but never run away. I know she will learn to be gentle with time.  When she does groom Rip, I encourage her, talk to her and pet her head, like a reward for doing good.

                                  My goal is that I could start doing the all day bonding and hopefully move it into an overnight. I was planning on Sunday being like “Day 1” of 5 days (hopefully) without a fight.  I know nipping isn’t really encouraged, but if I were to reset every time a nip happened, they would NEVER bond.  So we will see how far we get tomorrow.  I’m hoping to be live again around 12pm pacific time.  I’ll also be online for chatting, so any and all input can be seen there!


                                • BinkyBunny
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                                    While Zee can definitely show some submissive behaviors – the nose to nose stand-off between the two definitely has Zee being the “top” bun as it is a dominant behavior to demand/or receive grooming and not groom in return. Looks like Ripley has some dominant behaviors but due to her being people skittish, she does seem to seek comfort in Zee at times, but can still show some dominant behaviors. Zee does have some passive or what I would call cautious behaviors, but in the end, she has some dominant behaviors that I can see can conflict with Rip. (of course, this was only from the 4 hour video observation and you will know more). But what looks good is they don’t seem to want to kill each other — they just have some serious mistrust. I never really saw the true aggressive body language — just more of the reactive body language. So there is hope! So if they can get some trust in there and if Rip will either accept that Zee may not groom back, OR if Zee would groom a bit more, they may bond.

                                    I remember somewhere someone (maybe at a rescue) suggested putting a bit a tiny bit of smeared banana on a bunny’s head to get the other one to groom. That seemed to work for some. Not sure if that would work for my current bunny as she can get crazy if she even smells banana — don’t know if that would cause more disruption or not?

                                    I find the long videos very helpful and educational because one short snippet doesn’t always give the full story. Great job!


                                  • BinkyBunny
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                                      I forgot to add- I will check out the video when I can of “Day 1”. Hopefully all went well.

                                      Updated to add — I just went through Day 1 – sifted through of course as it’s 11 hours, but again, what great footage. 

                                      They are doing well so far.  Great Job.  While yes there were a few nips, they didn’t chase, they were just communicating their boundaries, and the other did not cross it here and there .  So for example — Zee would ask – or cautiously demand to be groomed (this can look like a submissive behavior due to a lowered or what seems like a cowering head) but that is Zee telling Rip to groom her, and that is not submissive.   Rip would and all was fine, but there were times that I could see Rip saying — stop asking that, you are not the boss of me… and she would let Zee know this by nipping her underneath her jaw.   I actually saw Zee do this to Rip too, but it was only once or twice. 

                                      The good news is that once Zee got the message to stop demanding to be groomed, by getting a nip, she would run and Rip would not run after her.  So that is communication not full blown aggression.    Anthropomorphically speaking– Looks like Rip is saying, “fine, I will groom you, Zee but don’t get greedy and think you are top bun all the time.”  And Rip reminds Zee that she is no pushover.   Zee seems to get that and gets cautious/scared when that happens, and is little bit confused about how to react to that just yet.   But gosh it looks good so far. 

                                      I am keeping my fingers crossed that all continues to go well and they soon work through the little bunny complexities and learn to trust fully soon.  

                                      Great job!  


                                    • deadneonflies
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                                        Wow, thank you for the thorough input!  I was actually going to ask who was showing signs of being dominant.  This whole time I thought Zee was being submissive with the bowing for grooming.  I didn’t think it would be the opposite, but totally makes sense.  Day 1 is about 11 hours.  It’s long, so no worries if you can’t get around it to.  I will be live again tomorrow in the afternoon.  I will be at the bunny rescue for volunteer work and will be bringing the buns with me in their stroller.  

                                        In the beginning I tried the banana trick, but Zee has never been interested in new foods and refuses to try anything new.  In the last few months however, when I give foods to Ripley, she gobbles them up right away.  Zee’s confidence in new foods has bloomed and she is enjoying bananas and other types of greens like kale and dandelions.  I will try the trick tomorrow at some point.  

                                        Thanks for the insight.  I can’t wait to share that info with my husband when he gets home from work.  Hopefully I’ll talk to you all tomorrow!

                                        -Meg


                                      • BinkyBunny
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                                          Looks like I rewrote my answer to update at the same time you may have posted, so see the post above again that has my review of behaviors of Day 1.


                                        • deadneonflies
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                                            All of this information has been SUPER helpful!!!  

                                            I tried an overnight last night and moved their pen into a portion of the kitchen where I could see them from my couch (slept on the couch last night).  When I moved the pen, they started nipping a lot.  More than usual.  It was weird.  Anyways, I figured they’d settle down a bit, so I still went ahead with the overnight.  Its a bit hard to see them when all the lights are out, but I was able to hear them and wake up (I’m a SUPER light sleeper).  There were a couple of times they woke me up because I heard them rustleing around, then fell back asleep.  There was a point around 5 am that I heard legit fighting.  I went into the kitchen and there was fur on the floor.  So I took them out and put them in their divided living pen for the rest of the night/morning.  This morning I took them with me to the bunny rescue place in their stroller and they’ve been fine all day.  They are now back in their bonding pen in the kitchen and again, they’ve been fine.  Here is a picture I was lucky enough to snap eariler today.  So adorbs.  


                                          • deadneonflies
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                                              NIGHT #2:

                                              So I went ahead and did another overnight with them. I noticed that around the same time last night as the night before, they started getting feisty with each other again. This was about 11pm. I gave them a bunch of treats, and let them be. They mostly ignored each other after that.
                                              When they woke me up throughout the night, it was because of chasing. Ripley was chasing Zee around the pen in circles. Around 5 am again a big chase happened and I went in and gave them more treats and sat with them for about 30 minutes petting their heads then went back to bed.

                                              This morning I didn’t see any fur anywhere in the pen, so I guess that’s good. No big fights happened that I didn’t hear. There was poop everywhere and some pee outside of the litter box. I’m pretty positive it was territorial poops. Right now they are in their stroller. I was thinking about doing the stroller for an overnight tonight, that way it can also be by my bed too and it will be easier for me to catch them and watch them. I’m not sure about this though.

                                              Any new thoughts? Suggestions?

                                              I’m feeling very defeated right now. I’m so exhausted from all of this. I wish they were just bonded already and cute and adorable together and felt safe and happy being with each other. This is driving me bonkers. It’s been 8 months already!! Ulg. Sorry, I had to rant for a second.


                                            • deadneonflies
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                                                Bonding vacation week is now over.  SO…. how are they doing?

                                                They still aren’t bonded  BUT, much progress has been made!!

                                                Last friday I had friends over and we did a little experiment.  I let the girls out for free roam int he apartment living room while my friends were here.  Their living pen was closed up, so they couldn’t get to their pen, and I had lots of toys, greens, a litter box out too for them.  I told my friends to pet them, give them head rubs, feed them, give them treats, and if they see fighting or nipping, to clap their hands or hiss at them really loudly.  The buns did fantastic with this!!!  They didn’t fight or anything.  They even sat with eachother for a majority of the evening.  Such great news.  

                                                To keep the ball rolling, I ended up sleeping in the living room with them that night.  It was so cute to sleep to the pitter patters of bunny feet.  At one point one of them jumped on my head in the night.  There were a few chasing moments, but no fighting that I could tell.  The next day, I took them with me on a little road trip to san diego (I live in OC) to visit my family.  So they had roughly 4 hours in the car and a whole day in a strangers house with strange animals.  no nips or fighting at all!  When I came home that night, I continued living room free roam time and did that for the next two nights.  On night three, I woke up and noticed a wet spot on the mattress by my feet.  One of the buns had peed on me in the night!!!!  Zee has never peed on anything outside of her litter box.  Ripley has been known to pee sometimes outside the litter box, and also tends to miss even when she is IN her litter box.  So I could only assume it was her.  I am told this is a sign that she loves me.  Funny way of showing it.  But if it is true, it is nice to know she is really starting to trust us as her humans.

                                                Either way, that same morning, they WERE actually starting to fight, so I went to go seperate them and put them back in their pens.  When I was putting Zee in her, she jumped out of my hands (she is VERY squirmey when being held), she fell into her litter box and it toppled on top of her.  When I straightened everything out, she was wimpering and holding her paw up.  When I went to go check it out, she kept running away from me and squeeling.  

                                                I took her to the vet and they said it didn’t feel like anything was broken or fractured.  SO they gave her some Metacam and told me to have her on movement restriction for a few days and keep up with the meds.  So this puts a huge damper on our bonding time and progress!!!  but thinking about it, I realize THE STROLLER!!!  When they are in the stroller, they don’t have much room to move around anyways.  So i’ve been trying to keep them in the stroller together when I am home and seperate them when I am not home.  I don’t want her reinjuring herself while I am gone right now, especially if they are still not fully bonded.  They have been doing much better in the stroller than before the bonding week.  They are snuggling more and not nipping at all.  They’ve been climbing all over eachother more and tolerating eachother’s nonesense (butts in faces and stuff).  It’s adorable.  I’m going to keep them like this through the weekend to make sure zee is all healed up, then go back to long term bonding and possibly overnights again if they are doing well….

                                                ok, ramble over.


                                              • deadneonflies
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                                                  FINAL UPDATE:::

                                                  So it seems we are finally bonded!! At last!! They are now living in their new living pen together and I am able to comfterably leave them alone for long periods of time in there, and also out and about in the living room unsupervised (when I go to work, etc.). However, we still have one hiccup I’d like some help with!

                                                  It seems to me and my husband that Ripley starts really chasing and biting Zee in the early mornings, around 5 and 6am. This wakes us up in the next room. Due to this, I have been giving them their pellets at that time to help them stop. I put their pellets into two different bowls on different sides of their pen, and also sprinkle some pellets around the floor too. They stop fighting and all go back to normal. Upon closer inspection, there are fur bits around the cage from this. I used to feed them whenever I woke up, around 10 or 11am. But it seems they are getting too fiesty in the mornings.

                                                  I can only think of 2 solutions:
                                                  1) Give them a few pellets at night before we go to bed so they don’t fight until we get up in the morning to feed them (on our own time) or
                                                  2) wake up every morning at 6 am to feed them and hope they don’t fight when this happens. Once my husband is woken up though, he can’t go back to sleep which is a problem for us night owls.

                                                  Any other suggestions or solutions?


                                                • deadneonflies
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                                                    THEY’RE BONDED!


                                                  • HotCrossBuns
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                                                      YAY So happy for you and the buns!!


                                                    • Dee
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                                                        Just saw this update-
                                                        CONGRATS!!!
                                                        ?⭐????⭐?

                                                        I truly give you credit for hanging in there and continuing to try despite all the girlie drama! I know I would have given up, being the big chicken I am with my bunniies. It really takes nerves of steel to watch your beloved fur babies look like they’re gonna take a chunk out of each other ?. But YOU DID IT!!! So happy for you- your bunnies are very blessed to have such a dedicated and smart mommy ☺.

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                                                    Forum BONDING Zee/ Ripley update