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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Olive…. Again

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    • OliverBun
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        Quick recap: Olive had a yeast infection in his left ear. 4 days after we finished with that treatment hr stopped eating greens but was still eating pellets. Saw the vet on Wednesday. He looked good except he now has a yeast infection in his right ear. We have started treatment for that. Yesterday and last night he seemed great. He was eating more greens and was energetic. This morning he munched on a few greens but no pellets and has been very sleepy. He will take apple but not his other favorite treat. My fiance thinks maybe Olive just isn’t hungry right now but I think there’s something wrong. Theories are appreciated. I’m so sick of worrying.


      • OliverBun
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          Should I wait over night if he doesn’t start eating and pooping? I can do reglan and critical care here. Or should we go to the emergency vet right away?


        • Bam
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            Do gentle tummy rubs. If his belly is distended/ tender to the touch, or if you feel a hard lump (could be blockage/impaction then) I’d say take him in. If he lets you massage him, massage him, gently. Keep him warm. See to it that he gets fluids, hydration is as you know very important.

            If this is onset of stasis/gas, reglan and CC are of course good. But the best is if he eats on his own, obviously.

            I can’t say if you should take him in or try yourself at home first, you have to again use your best judgement. And you have good judgement, you’ve proved that by taking him through quite a lot lately.


          • OliverBun
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              How do I tell if it’s gas/stasis vs his teeth?
              He ate about half of everything I gave him for dinner except his hay. On one hand he’s getting better. On the other our problems are just beginning.


            • Bam
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                Gas/stasis is often caused by a teeth-problem. It hurts when the bunny chews, so he tries to avoid chewing, esp tough stuff like hay.
                You often notice a gas-problem and perhaps sticky poop or misshapen poop because the bunny doesn’t chew his food properly.

                It’s not easy to say without an exam of the teeth, and you can’t do that yourself. But if he eats at least half of what you give him and poops and doesn’t seem to be in pain, I think it can wait until Monday or when your regular vet can see him. I don’t think an ER vet would bother with his teeth anyway, they just do emergency life-saving stuff.

                Maybe the treatment for the yeast has something to do with this. (You do need to treat him of course, but it may make him feel a bit under the weather.)


              • OliverBun
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                  Yeah he’s just so little that his vet can’t see his teeth without sedation. So it’s a big decision at his age and in his current condition
                  I realize teeth problems often cause stasis. I’m just hoping that he had gas related to something else. Cause then he’s definitely on the path to recovery.
                  I’m hoping for other indicators that may help me understand the underlying reason for his not eating properly so I can decide what the next steps in treatment are.
                  Thanks bam for responding to all my posts!!


                • Bam
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                    They can very well have bouts of gas without having anything wrong with their teeth. My Bam sometimes has gas, if it were sth about his teeth that the vets had missed, it would’ve grown worse over the years I’ve had him, but it hasn’t. I have noticed that he’s more sensitive during a molt. (I think many bunnies are and that that’s part of how the hairball-myth came about.) I think a dip in the immune-defense for whatever reason makes bunnies prone to react with tummy-trouble, since the tummy is their most sensitive part.

                    I wish I could give you more conclusive answers. You are such a good bunny-mom to him.


                  • OliverBun
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                      OK last question I SWEAR. I’ve been spending my day reading about molar spurs. My vet always says she can’t see his teeth without sedation. He’s Netherland dwarf mix and roughly 3.5 lbs. It seems like people with smaller buns can get their teeth checked without sedation…. So what’s up? Should I find another vet?


                    • Bam
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                        It depends a lot on the bunny, how relaxed he is during an exam with an otoscope, and of course on the size of the spurs. My vet could see Yohio’s back teeth with the otoscope, but she didn’t see the spurs, they were tiny.

                        I don’t know if you should find another vet. It is a well-known problem that bunny molars are hard to see. It doesn’t have to mean the vet isn’t. good enough. I don’t know if it would do to just have him sedated instead of going for a full anaesthesia, I don’t know if that’s done with bunnies at all.

                        Please ask as many question as you feel you need to, OliverBunny. 


                      • ergodic
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                          I will agree with bam on this, molar spurs are indeed tricky.One of mine was looked over by three different vets and all three vets felt there was no problem. However, I asked one of the vets to look at her more carefully and they eventually did notice some little spurs stabbing her cheek.


                        • Niamian
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                            Well, our vet checked out teeth just about two weeks ago even though Redford was stubborn on trying to chow on trough the examination. He didn’t need any sedation.

                            But then again his assistant, vet who is just working other shift and is not bunny specialist (though a great vet too), couldn’t see a thing just a day before that.

                            So I really have no idea what to tell you.
                            Only best vibes to ((((Olive)))) from Redford and me.


                          • OliverBun
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                              Thank you for all the input. Olive did munch on a bit of hay and a few pellets but not near as much as normal. I’m going to have blood work run tomorrow. If he continues to not eat he’ll be sedated. This is very scary just waiting and not knowing what is going on.


                            • jerseygirl
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                                This is very scary just waiting and not knowing what is going on.

                                {{{vibes!}}}


                              • OliverBun
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                                  Olives x rays and blood work look great. He will be sedated on Thursday to check out his teeth. If it’s not his teeth we have no idea what it is. He’s losing weight quickly bit seems so incredibly happy. I was considering telling the vet that if it’s not his teeth, then we shouldn’t wake him up. I feel like I’m out of options for him.
                                  I would really appreciate some input. I do not make the decision lightly. I just don’t want to cause my rabbit pain and discomfort and if he’s not eating, what else can we do?


                                • OliverBun
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                                    Olive is done with his procedure. No spurs! He has yeast in both ears!!! He’s been treated for this for 5 weeks and he still has yeast!! The vet took a deep culture and will call with results in Monday.


                                  • Bam
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                                      I’m so sorry to hear that you haven’t found out what it is. Prolonged yeast infections might be a sign of poor immune defense.

                                      If he seems very happy I’m guessing he is happy. We often have no other way of telling if our pets are suffering or not than what we can see when we observe them. 


                                    • OliverBun
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                                        What does poor immune defense mean for Olive?


                                      • Bam
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                                          That he’s old, probably. Our immune-defense gets less strong as we age. But it could also mean he’s weakened by some underlying disease. But forget I mentioned it, because it’s only natural for a bunny of that age. It’s the exact same thing with people. That’s why good nutrition is so very important for the elderly. They don’t have lots of reserves to draw on, the way the younger do.

                                          Yeast can also follow upon treatment with broad-spectrum antibiotics, esp prolonged treatment. The abs kill off all bacteria, both good and bad, and leaves the field open for yeast to colonize it. And yeast can be really stubborn, it has a tendency to recurr again and again.


                                        • OliverBun
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                                            I really hope we can get to the bottom of it and kill the yeast for good. Olive is eating so little I’m really afraid for him. After having ruled out everything else, it must be the ear problems affecting his appetite.


                                          • LittlePuffyTail
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                                              ((((Oliver)))))


                                            • OliverBun
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                                                OK update! Olive has some minor staff infection in his ears. My vet said she’s not even sure it qualifies as an infection. He will be started on an antibiotic tomorrow.
                                                The theory on the eating component is that he’s suddenly having negative side effects from his daily metacam. He’s been on that for 2 years. How likely do you think it is that it’s the metacam??
                                                He’ll be taken off that tomorrow as well.

                                                He’s being quite inactive today. It’s worrying me…


                                              • Bam
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                                                  Great to hear that you’ve found a reason for the ears!
                                                  Long-term treatment with Metacam is generally well tolerated by buns, but it’s a NSAID and as such, it has some gastro-intestinal side-effects that might affect some bunnies and not others. You could perhaps taper it out rather than stopping cold turkey, or what have your vet said about that? I’m guessing he gets it for some arthritis-like problems? As for a negative side-effect cropping up after 2 years, it’s not unheard of. I have an extreme example from my own life: My bf took the same blood-pressure med for 14 years and then suddenly got a bad adverse rection (angioedema) and had to stop.

                                                  Kiss him from me and tell him to stop being inactive because it makes his mommy worried.


                                                • ergodic
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                                                    If the Metacam is an issue you might ask for some sucralfate to prevent ulcers. Metacam since it is a NSAID can cause ulcers.

                                                    Lots of good healing vibes sent to Olive.


                                                  • Bam
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                                                      Yes, ergodic has a good point, NSAIDs for humans are often prescribed together with a med that reduces the acidity of the stomach acid. Ranitidine is such a med and it’s bunny safe. Sucralfate coats the stomach to protect it from stomach acid. Ask your vet if that’s something you could try.


                                                    • OliverBun
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                                                        My vet currently wants him on:
                                                        Gabapentin
                                                        Cisapride
                                                        Reglan
                                                        Antifungal ear drops
                                                        And
                                                        21 days of an oral antibiotic

                                                        I don’t want to give him more. Right now we’re trying only the ear drops and antibiotic. If additional stuff is needed I’ll reasses then. I really want to stop putting so many drugs in him if at all possible. We skipped his metacam this morning and so far (6pm) he does not seem bothered. I’m hoping it will continue that way.

                                                        Thoughts?


                                                      • OliverBun
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                                                          Also, 21 days seems like a long time for abs. I’m scared that may cause stasis. Am I wrong about that?


                                                        • Bam
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                                                            Ok, he gets gabapentin, that’s good for pain, I knew an old dog who was on that for a long time and she virtually became “as new”. She had really bad pain in her back due to spinal/joint problems caused by old age. If the gabapentin does its work, Oliver won’t need the Metacam.

                                                            21 days of abs is not unheard of at all. You often have to do long courses with elderly animals (and humans). You want to eradicate those stubborn bacteria. All abs mess with the bacteria in the GI tract though, so you could ask your vet if it’s ok to give him a probiotic. There is f ex Benebac and Fiberplex. Your vet may be able to suggest one or her clinic may even sell some. (My vet clinic sells Fiberplex. I haven’t had to use it though, but it’s good to know they keep it in stock).


                                                          • ergodic
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                                                              Gabapentin was actually used as a epilepsy medicine but they discovered it works quite well for pain. It is used in human for the same purpose It does not have the issue that Metacam has and it is not quite as strong as Tramadol, it might make Olive a little sleepy. When my rabbits were on it they had an oil based compound. The only problem with that is I had to change syringes very frequently the oil makes the syringe sticky.

                                                              Completely agree with bam 21 days is not that unheard of especially to get rid of an infection and a probiotic would not hurt. What is the oral antibiotic ?


                                                            • OliverBun
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                                                                The antibiotic is trimethoprim

                                                                I asked my vet about a probiotic, since she hasn’t mentioned it. She said I can give him human probiotic. So he’ll be getting some with pellets every night.

                                                                Just to clarify–I have gabapentin but I’m not currently giving him any. He’s on day 2 of no pain meds and he’s doing really well so far. He finished his entire dinner and is currently munching some hay and cilantro!!


                                                              • OliverBun
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                                                                  Olive seems to be doing really well. He’s been off metacam for 4 days and for 4 days he’s eaten his entire dinner and breakfast. His eating schedule has changed, but he is eating more. He also ate a bunch of hay today so yay! I’m hesitant to say we’re out of the woods until I see sustained improvement but for now we’re looking good!


                                                                • Bam
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                                                                    It sounds very good. I’m glad to hear it! I’m keeping my fingers crossed for him.


                                                                  • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                      Glad to hear it. ((((((Vibes))))) to keep improving!

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                                                                  Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Olive…. Again