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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Seizure and paralysis – Fiver

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    • MimzMum
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        Hi guys, haven’t been around much again, but would like some opinions if I may.

         Fiver, my 7 year old minrex, appeared to have some sort of seizure on Sunday night. I heard a lot of commotion coming from the bedroom (his pen is right there) and when I came in I saw him on his left side flailing about and unable to get up. I tried calling him but got no response although his eyes were open. I carefully lifted him out of his pen and put him on my bed, trying to set him upright, but he kept falling over, although he stopped thrashing. He could not even sit in bunloaf position. The whole episode from start to finish took a good couple of minutes.

        I have seen him have slight fits before, wildly kicking rear legs or odd head twitches (not head binkies, these were definitely abnormal movements.) This was 3 years ago after Mimzy got head tilt and we went ahead and gave all three of my rabbits fenbendazole for 28 days to treat possible e. Cuniculi.

        I couldn’t get him to the ER Sunday night (it was close to midnight and I don’t drive in the dark) so I tried to get him an appointment Monday morning but the vet was in surgery all day. We aimed for Tuesday morning instead.

        That day the vet (not our regular one but rabbit savvy anyway) found Fiver to be sound, no broken bones or enlarged organs, although he did think he’d had a seizure from what I had described. He scheduled us for a dental on Monday the 4th (Fiver doesn’t have spurs per se but lots of wavy molars which could indicate elongated tooth roots that could be causing inter-cranial pressure and possibly the seizure) where the doctor will take blood and radiographs of the skull and see if we can figure out what’s going on in there. We were also given 14 days of baytril to cover any possible infection, vet suspects pasturella. Fiver has been sneezing and pawing his ears, but his ears aren’t dirty much so inner or middle ear involvement is possible.

        This morning, after hearing him binkying about in his pen (something he hasn’t done in a long time) and thinking he looked pretty normal I walked my dogs…when I came back in about 9:30 a.m., Fiver was holding his left front paw up and wouldn’t bear weight on it. I took him out on the bed again and had a good feel around, nothing felt broken but I am no vet so off we went again. This time we saw a different doctor who admits she’s not the best with rabbits but would take a look at him.

        After much prodding and pulling, putting him on the floor and picking him up, and squeezing his paw until he finally showed a pain response, she determined that the limb is paralyzed.

        We don’t know if it will be permanent, if he bruised, tore or otherwise inured the plexus nerves in his armpit or if he’s had another seizure that I didn’t see or a stroke…but there is really nothing we can do at the moment except see if it will heal on it’s own. If it is still out of commission on Monday, we’ll take a different tack as to treatment, if any can be helpful.

        I’m rather distraught. Fiver is carrying on without his leg (the foot folds backward at the ankle? and he can’t stand on it, neither can he wash his face with that paw because the “arm” will only rise halfway to his face) but I fear he will catch his leg either in his habitat bars or coming out of his litterbox and truly break it, or send himself sprawling or do some other horrid damage. I don’t know what to do. Add to this my daughter is going for thyroid surgery out of town on the 4th and will be away with my OH until the doctor says she can fly back. Cue major stress attacks!

        My fear for Fiver is that he won’t come out of anesthesia or he’ll come out damaged worse than he is. Can a bunny who’s had a seizure recently and seems to have limb ataxia be safe under GA? If he does come out of it and the leg doesn’t heal, should I look at having it amputated? I feel I should cancel the surgery but he needs this done, the diagnostics at least, and I thought we should nip any tooth problems in the bud, especially if extractions are necessary.

        He doesn’t appear in pain and that’s actually the worst of it. He can’t feel anything but deep pain in that leg which means if he does hurt it he’s likely not to realize it until it’s really mangled. All other limbs work fine so I would think if it’s post seizure damage it would be more than one affected. Could he have landed on it wrong and the nerves are too stunned to work right now? And if so how long could it take before he has use of the leg again?

        He’s on 0.25 mls twice a day of dog metacam already for arthritic hips and he weighs about 1640 grams (?) or about 3.6 pounds. I am really worried about this little fella because he’s my baby, youngest bunny. I would hate to see him be disabled like this, especially when Mimzy is already wonky with his residual head tilt and he takes a lot of gentle handling. Fiver is a stress head who doesn’t like to be held and if I need to medicate or do PT with him it’s going to be very hard on both of us.

        Any tips, thoughts or advice would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you in advance!

         


      • MoxieMeadows
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          I don’t really have any help/advice to give you. But I just thought I would send you and Fiver some ((((vibes)))) and (((Hugs))). Hang in there! <3


        • Sarita
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            Hugs to you and vibes to Fiver.

            I would not amputate his leg….that doesn’t make sense. I don’t know have any answers though to your other questions concerning the paralysis and know one may have a definitive answer to this.

            And I totally understand the fear of him not coming out of the anesthesia and to be honest, if that happens (which I’m not hoping for obviously) it’s not an unpleasant way for him to go if it’s his time and please don’t take that in the wrong way.

            Please keep us updated.


          • Little Lion Head
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              Hi Mimz. I don’t have any advice, but I just wanted to let you know I’m here and I’m thinking about you. I will never forget what a support you were and how encouraging you were to me when Boston had head tilt and I was a wreck.

              You are so amazing! Dealing with so much at once with your sick bunny baby and your human baby going into to surgery. I can’t even begin to imagine how stressful this time is for you. I just wish I had more to offer than my “thoughts.”

              Please keep us updated. Pumpkin, Shamrock, Jared, and I are sending lots of vibes for ((((((((Fiver)))))))))


            • MimzMum
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                Thanks everyone. You are all very kind.

                Thank you Moxie, for your thoughts. It is really hard when it looks like a bunny is going to have a chronic issue and there is not a lot that can be done but watch and wait. Just trying to keep the stress levels down so I don’t further irritate him.

                Sarita, thank you. It is not taken the wrong way at all. I have learned over the years with rabbits that there are worse things than a beloved bunny leaving this earth under the effects of anesthesia. It would just be so sad as he is my littlest one and a very close companion as he never bonded with the other two. I think he sees me as momma bunny. And I am just so buggered about how he has lost the use of this leg.

                I’m not entirely sure now that he had a seizure Sunday night, but whatever he’s done to the leg it is not responding as it should be. Perhaps it’s just a pinched off nerve that he wrung out whilst binkying in his pen, or flopping about when I thought he was seizing. It could be a side effect of e.c. It could be a brain tumor. We can’t know for certain. But I think I will have them xray the shoulder/leg on Monday along with his other diagnostics just to be sure. I really feel the vet who saw him yesterday was a little lean in treatment options. I think the vet who saw him Tuesday should’ve taken some films then and there since it was two days from when he’d been flopping wildly enough to hurt himself. I feel like we’ve missed something and I’m not real happy about it.

                Today I’ve had to (with the advice of his vet) stop his baytril as he’d completely stopped eating/pooping after 3 this morning. I was up at 7 and he hadn’t even touched his water or moved from the spot where I left him. That is NOT like him. So I’m hoping to get him eliminating again by this evening but so far he’s only dropped some wee tiny poos early this morning and one small pee.
                Since stopping the antibiotics, he has devoured a lot of vegetables (parsley/green leaf lettuce/kale) and I expect a bit of a messy bum by tomorrow, but I had to get him eating something. He has gurgly tummy sounds again and I’m hoping it’s just a matter of time before we see something at his other end.
                Since this is the worst case of gut slowdown I’ve ever seen in him and the only different thing we did was give him the baytril, I’m guessing it did not agree with him and will be noted in his file. I’m not sure he should have a dental along with his tests Monday since he’s had such a hard time keeping his tum going, but we’ll see what his doctor says. It’s not an emergency because he was eating well before the baytril so it can likely wait a bit longer. But I’ve got to know what the bloods say and the films.

                He’s currently snoozing away in my (very warm) room on the bed looking very cozy. Much happier than he was this morning. So I am hopeful.

                LLH, thank you too for your thoughts for Fiver. I’m so glad you’ve opened your hearts and home to another set of bunnies, not sure if I welcomed Shamrock and Pumpkin properly but I think often of you all. And I will never forget Boston, she was legendary. <3

                Love to all and thanks for your comments. BTW, if anyone knows of good physical therapy exercises for bunnies when they have ‘dead limbs’, I’d like to research such things so that if it becomes necessary to help Fiver regaining his leg’s motility I can be ready for it. xx


              • tanlover14
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                  Hi Mimz, I’m so sorry to hear about Fiver.

                  I would not worry about him catching his paw — especially if he is holding it up. Rabbits tend to do really well with disabilities. Perhaps covering up any areas where he could catch his paw may put your mind at ease? I know Fleury got his foot stuck in his cage while jumping out when he was a baby. Putting a piece of cardboard over any areas like that may help. As Sarita said, I would not consider amputation unless there is a medically necessary reason for doing so.

                  Antibiotics can definitely have that effect on some buns. Would your vet prescribe Reglan? I know some antibiotics tend to make them a tad lethargic. My vet uses Reglan with my buns to help stimulate appetite. May not be worth it at this point though.

                  Has he ever been tested for EC? That’s the first thing that comes to mind for me.

                  Sending lots of vibes to both of you <3


                • LBJ10
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                    tanlover – It sounds like all 3 buns were treated for it at some point as a precaution.

                    Oh MM, I’m so sorry this has happened to Fiver. Poor little guy. =( If the vet cannot find anything else wrong, then perhaps there is something wrong with the nerves in that area. As you said, something may have been pinched. Once you have all of the testing you want to do out of the way, you could look into physical therapies that might help him regain some function. Who knows, some of the function may start to return over time as well.


                  • tanlover14
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                      My understanding of EC is that it can come back in spurts due to stress. I was curious if perhaps he is having issues due to an underlying condition (like the spurs) causing extra stress on the body & the body. Even if treated, it is lifelong.


                    • LBJ10
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                        That’s true TL. Plus they were treated 3 years ago (if I’m reading that correctly). So something to add to the list of things to consider.


                      • JackRabbit
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                          {{{{{Fiver}}}}}


                        • tanlover14
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                            I really hope it is something that is not permanent, Mimz! But keep your thoughts positive b/c I do have a friend whose bunny lost all ability to use his back legs. Once they treated him for the illness that seemingly would have no affect on back legs (I believe it was a URI), he regained use of his back legs. Sending lots of vibes, Mimz <3 Please keep us updated whenever you get the time!


                          • Beka27
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                              Healing vibes for Fiver!!!

                              Nothing much to add here, Mimz, but keep us posted!


                            • MimzMum
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                                Thanks everyone
                                Well today he is not greatly improved in the eating/pooping department but his overall mood is much better. He is wary of syringes, I’m guessing due to how poorly the baytril made him feel. He’s got some gut movement though because I can see his belly undulating when he’s lying flat.

                                The left leg is now moving a wee bit, I think. He still can’t use the foot, it’s just hanging there, but it seems more sensitive (he doesn’t want me touching it and flinches when I do) and he will put a slight bit of weight on the “knee” when he hops. It looks like a peg leg.

                                I saw him do something weird yesterday and today that I may have mistaken for the seizure Sunday night. He was unable to right himself from a side-lying position without some assistance…this is either left or right side. He’ll flail until you help him up. I’m thinking now we’re looking at some spinal problem that is making it hard for him to get up on his feet, like advanced arthritis. When he’s loafed or laying on his belly he can get up and down fine, it’s getting his feet under him that appears difficult.

                                He needs a softer and more cushioned surface in his habitat, he can’t be on a thin layer of bedding anymore. It doesn’t stay stable when he’s trying to move. I think he came out of his litterbox too fast on Sunday night, the bedding slid from under him and he crashed and that’s why he was so panicked and unresponsive when I got to him…he was terrified and probably hurt.

                                I think he really needs some xrays taken to be certain there’s no damage or not a slipped disc or pinched nerve, but I’m not doing the dental and the GA, he is not strong enough to withstand the anesthesia and I don’t want to set his appetite back again. I want to suss what is wrong with that leg, although he is carrying on for the most part without it. He can’t wash the left side of his face though or his ear and you can see it bothers him.
                                He’s made a good try to scratch his face with his rear left foot but can’t quite reach because there’s no support from his front leg on that side, so he is getting a bit frustrated with that too.

                                I don’t recall if we tested him or Pip for E.C. 3 years ago. The vet only suggested we give them all Panacur even though they weren’t bonded because they all lived in the same general space and germs would likely be transferred between them through bedding or litter boxes, etc. if they all didn’t have it already-which most buns do. I know we’ve run tests over the years on Mimzy because he was a snuffly bunny and pasturella was suspected. So we ran the panel for E.C. also but neither came back conclusive. Since Fiver’s had antibiotics now the pathogen will likely not show up and at $200 for the test I really can’t afford that, even with my Care Credit. I spent almost $300 the other day, another $40 for his recheck (which did him no good) and I’m looking at another $300 for Monday without the dental. They just keep suggesting ways to add more charges in my opinion. I’m very annoyed with how much higher the costs have gone at this vet for the level of service. It used to be only about a third of this and I wonder if this is why my good vet left.

                                He has not done any more “circling”. I think he was just uncomfortable in his back end and was trying to find a spot that didn’t hurt to sit on. Really should have just xrayed him on Tuesday, but if wishes were horses….

                                Anyway still trying to get him back to normal. Will call the vet tomorrow and specify what we’re doing Monday. My husband and daughter leave that night and believe me, the whole family is stressed and it’s hard to cope with all this too. My girl is not a “doctor” person and she’s had to see more medical people this last year or so than she has in her life. Her tank is topped!

                                Thanks for all the vibes and well wishes. Please keep them coming if you have them going spare, we can use all we can get. xx


                              • jerseygirl
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                                  Hi MzM
                                  First up, some vibees for:
                                  {{{Fiver}}}
                                  Your {{{daughter}}}
                                  {{{You!}}}
                                  and also your {{{vet care funds}}}

                                  Secondly, please forgive if my post seems scattered & rambling. Limited sleep and a dozen thoughts as I read your posts.

                                  His leg sounds ALOT like Jerseys when she sprained it. She wasn’t even doing anything risky. She tucked it up and it took 2 weeks to look more normal. Given that Fiver has reacted to your handling the leg, I’m thinking there’s not any paralysis??
                                  Any chance you can post a pic of how he’s holding it? Not to diagnose (!) but I am curious.

                                  When is your regular rabbit vet available? Perhap they could look over the others notes or email with you to go over your current thinking on his issues?

                                  Also wouldn’t be bad to get their opinion on the teeth. I think you were spot on to cancel that procedure at the moment given that his appetite waned. Stasis >> raised liver enzymes.
                                  Maybe appetite result of the abx but also side effect of the trips to the vet. If he’s is to go under anaesthetic in future, consider some bloodwork first. That he’s 7 and also on regular metacam.

                                  Do you have a good idea of normal feel of his ears temp wise. Feel like that’s a silly qu – of course you do! Anyway, if he’s still not eating/eliminating right and you feel his temp is lower (or have taken it) I’d make sure he’s amply warmed up before his regular metacam. You’re probably aware how some meds can be ineffective when rabbit is hypothermic. But if already lower then norm, metacam could lower further! I was surprised to have read mention of that recently but I recall it is an antipyretic too, I just hadn’t made the connection before. “duh” moment.

                                  Feel like you’re on the money with possibility it’s effects of arthritis you witnessed with his flailing. Reminds me of my sisters dog I dog-sat recently. 15yr old with arthritis but still going strong. It seems on occasion his back leg almost dislocates and he’s pretty wobbly in it. Then I think he sleeps on his side, weak side facing down and it rights itself.
                                  So it makes one wonder is Fiver arthritis prevents some movements but not others if he manages well while he’s upright. Especially if he’s still binkies now and then. Bless him for making the most if what he is capable of! x

                                  If it was in fact a seizure, something you could easily do is increase potassium. Deficiency may not be cause but i wouldn’t think it would do any harm to give anyway. Banana (if he tolerates it) and tomato juice. Once you’re confident he’s eating well again of course. You’ve prob come across that remedy before. I can’t recall if it’s more young bunnies affected by nutritional deficiency though… idk. Just thought it wouldn’t hurt.

                                  I’m going crossed eyed now so I’ll sign off and hope to read positive news when I next check the thread. x


                                • MimzMum
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                                    Hello Kate! It’s good to see you posting. Thanks so much for all your thoughts, I really hadn’t known some of these things so it helps very much!

                                    He has been practically living on my bed lately so he’s in contact with a good electric blanket which he seems to really appreciate. I am sure it must give some relief to any bruised or battered areas of his body that all that flailing caused. Didn’t realize metacam could make a cold bunny worse. I guess it makes sense, you use NSAIDS during flu season to help lower your temperature. Never occurred to me in regards to the rabbits though. Poor Mimzy is on my kitchen floor in his xpen and he is a real creaky boy, I guess I’d better move him closer to a heated area.

                                    I do have a picture of him holding his foot up. It’s not as bad as this tonight, this was the 30th that I took this and I realize looking at it that he’s already extending it more now..

                                     

                                    He hates fruit ironically. Mimzy loves banana and gets a bit now and then, but I tried Critical Care on him today, the apple banana one and he barely touched it. He wouldn’t eat the anise one either though so nothing really lost for trying there.

                                    See I thought it was a sprain too, but the vet he saw two days ago was bending and flexing it and practically doing everything but yanking it clean off and Fiver never made a peep or showed any sign that he felt it, which was why she said it was paralyzed. I’m just hoping that with some rest and recuperation it will come back, but I wish there were some way to stabilize it in the meantime. I’m afraid he’ll hurt it worse because it’s got little to no sensation.

                                    His vet now teaches at the University up here and only pops in to do weekend clinics sporadically. I am not even sure she’ll be on the roster this summer. I’m praying she’ll show up before this month is over, but if she does it would be a miracle. So that’s what I’m praying for.

                                    The diagnostics the vet who saw him Tuesday was going to run he claimed would have to be done with him mildly sedated. (Fiver, not the vet!) Even the bloodwork. He was going to check liver and kidneys. Fiver’s been on metacam for about a year now and it’s time that was done, but I really don’t want them to even give him a whiff of gas at this point. We’ll have to see if it can be done some other way, but I’ll do what’s best for Fiver. I’m still leaning away from the possibility of a seizure now…not ruling it out entirely but I’m beginning to think he is just getting a bit old and fragile and things like this are going to start happening. We need to reassess his accommodations and medications.

                                    Since he was eating and eliminating just fine before the baytril, and the only reason the vet was going to check his teeth with the xray was for elongated roots that would be pressing on something in his head triggering the seizure, I am not as worried about his teeth right now. I think he’ll be okay to wait a few weeks until we get his eating back to where it was.

                                    He’s done some good attacking on his hay pile tonight and I expect he will be (hopefully) doing better by morning. It’s taken a long time to get him this far, he’ll probably be at least a week until he’s back to even a semblance of normal. I’m going to look into ranitidine for protecting his stomach form the metacam’s effects since he’s been mostly empty. Mimzy had this for awhile too, it needs to be specially compounded but it’s good to have around for when they aren’t eating well.

                                    Thank you for all your thoughts and vibes. I may have missed replying to some of it but it’s late here and I’ve been up since 6 for the last couple of days trying to get Fiver to eat. I’m going to clean them all up and try to get some rest or I’m going to be a zombie.

                                    I’ll let my daughter know you’ve been thinking of her. She’s pretty nervous about the surgery and hard to comfort right now. xx


                                  • MimzMum
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                                      Just wanted to do a brief update here today.
                                      As of last night Fiver was eating more hay and I went to bed about 2 AM with him munching away in his habitat. He even looked, I thought, like he had some sensation in his left leg. But I convinced myself I was imagining it.
                                      Today we have much better poos/volume although not entirely normal yet and…wait for it….
                                      He was digging on the bed with BOTH FRONT PAWS!
                                      Now it’s early days with this if the limb is recovering, but it does look like he’s getting it back and I am SO relieved.
                                      Just waiting on a call from the vet to see if we need to add a gut stimulant/protective like ranitidine but I do think we’ve turned a corner. We have a ways to go but the road is visible now.
                                      Thanks so much everyone for thinking of him. We’ll keep you posted as to his progress. Ta! xx


                                    • LittlePuffyTail
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                                        First of all, I’m so sorry to be getting to this post so late. I haven’t had much BB time in a few days.

                                        And second, (((((Hugs)))). I know you’ve been going through a lot already. And I know how hard it is to have a bunny who is unwell.

                                        Poor little Fiver. I’m glad to hear his paw seems to be doing better. Digging is definitely a good sign.

                                        I can relate to the frustrations of having to give meds to give meds. My horse needs a stomach protector when she is on nsaids.

                                        Really wish I could help you with advice but I’m a great emotional support buddy.

                                        It’s late and my brain is done so I’m going to say a prayer for him, go to bed and hope for a happy update in the a.m.

                                        Oh, and I just really want to kiss him, seeing that pic so please give him one for me.


                                      • jerseygirl
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                                          Great to hear! Continued {{{vibes}}}.


                                        • JackRabbit
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                                            I wonder if its possible that he’s had feeling in the leg all along but was just hiding the sensitivity from the vet the way bunnies hide pain. Hoping it was just a sprain and is now on the mend or that a nerve just got a bit pinched and is now “unpinched”.

                                            Sending leg and munching vibes…


                                          • Beka27
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                                              Digging is a great sign! Keep us posted!


                                            • MimzMum
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                                                Posted By JackRabbit on 5/04/2015 6:28 AM

                                                I wonder if its possible that he’s had feeling in the leg all along but was just hiding the sensitivity from the vet the way bunnies hide pain. Hoping it was just a sprain and is now on the mend or that a nerve just got a bit pinched and is now “unpinched”.

                                                Sending leg and munching vibes…

                                                 

                                                Thanks JR, and everyone who has posted.

                                                Honestly, with the way the vet was pulling and pushing on his leg, if he could have felt it he should’ve been screaming. But I’m just glad he seems to be using it now. I hope there’s no lasting damage.

                                                I wonder if some antibiotics cause neurological issues or make them worse? It is just so odd that he was good until he started the baytril. Needless to say we won’t be using that one anymore.

                                                Not real happy with the vets we saw. If my original vet doesn’t return to the clinic I may have to look elsewhere for care until we move to California.

                                                He is eating/eliminating a bit better again today and washed his face with his left leg, but the foot still goes limp sometimes. It’s a slow process but we’re getting there.

                                                Lots of stress. Daughter left for her surgery today, the house feels so empty without her here.


                                              • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                  Lots of vibes for ((((Fiver)))))

                                                  And best of luck for you daughter. ((((Quick Recovery Vibes)))))

                                                  Hugs for you, Mimz. Have some tea and a nice, relaxing Jenna snug.


                                                • tanlover14
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                                                    Glad to hear the good news, Mimz! Keeping both Fiver & your daught in my get well wishes as well as you in my Peace of Mind wishes! <3


                                                  • JackRabbit
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                                                      How’s your daughter doing?

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                                                  Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Seizure and paralysis – Fiver