New to the bonding business

[theshrew24]

I have been looking around at other threads and have really benefited from the information I have found. The pictures, videos, and details people have been adding have been invaluable, but I still have some insecurities and questions about this whole thing.

I have two neutered males that I am trying to bond, one 3.5yrs and the other 1.5yrs. I ran into some trouble initially because I pushed too much too quickly, but I have been able to set up a rather stable schedule for feeding times and bonding sessions, and since then, things have gotten a lot better. Currently, they go through 45min sessions once a day before dinner time.

Initially, Wally was the dominant one. He mounted Albus, he took control of the litterbox, and he marked his territory even though he was in a neutral area. I did not allow the mounting (apparently, mistake #1), and he has calmed down a lot, but now Albus, who was very passive before, is lunging at Wally and even nipping at him. They get into scuttles (that I break up as quickly as possible) about once a session, around the 20min mark. Albus’s lunging is normally followed by him just putting his head down, waiting to be groomed by Wally, but I know that lunging is a bunny sign of aggression.

What do I do? Do I allow it? Do I tell him no? Do I wait for acts of violence to occur before reacting and let them work out the aggression for themselves?

I feel like both just want to be groomed – most interactions happen with their heads lowered and pressed against each other – but neither one wants to be the first one to do it. Any tips on how to encourage these two to be a little more warmer with each other?

[LBJ10]

Sometimes it’s better to just let them work things out for themselves. Only intervene if little scuffles escalate. Obviously, you don’t want anyone to get hurt. But at the same time, they need to learn to work things out on their own.

What are the bonding sessions like? Are they just in a pen together in neutral territory? Have you tried any stressing methods?

[theshrew24]

I use my bathtub as neutral territory for the bonding sessions, with the added plus of slippery terrain. I have tried stress-bonding a few times, but it is difficult to find something that is actually stressful for both rabbits. Albus hates the vacuum cleaner, being placed in a box, the washer machine, etc., but Wally takes on a much more “oooh, I *love* adventures!” attitude. I did find that putting them in a box and shaking it when things got rough allowed them close, neutral space while giving me an upper hand to break them up.

Today was Game of Thrones in my bathroom; both were fighting tooth-and-nail for the litter box. Eventually, I removed it, and things settled down. Is okay/suggested to switch up the “neutral territory”?

[LBJ10]

If one “neutral” place isn’t working, you can totally try a different location.

[theshrew24]

I bought a box today, a nice red one with tall sides. Another neutral space that will allow me to stress bond them! So we did an hour of that today, and it went much better than bonding has normally been going. They fought once, but because there is no room for chasing – barely any room for two rabbits to circle each other – it was quickly put to an end. Also, both of them dislike my walking with the box (while they are in it, of course), so it stresses them both out equally, and shaking the box a bit to break up fights works to break them up AND redirect their attention within 1 minute.

I have decided to do this for about a week before transitioning to a bathtub or penned off bathtub-sized area. I felt a bit bad about stressing them out – I almost gave up actually – but they did SO WELL! They huddled together for the whole hour and, like I said, there was only one fight that lasted 1.5min max. For the most part, I sat studying for finals with the box next to me.

Is it okay to do this for 7 days before transitioning out? Should I increase this time, or even decrease it? I thought about advancing based on their behaviour but don’t want to end up going backwards again.

How do you maintain patience? That’s been another problem. I have patience for days with cases about fear and anxiety, but the aggression/violence drives me up the wall. Tips for keeping the blood pressure down and not throwing the towel in?

[LBJ10]

That’s great! I would do whatever works. It sounds like this was a turn in the right direction.

It’s fine to do this every day if progress is being made. You can increase the time of bonding sessions too. Just remember to always (try to) end things on a positive note. So if things are going well, don’t push it too much. But you should be able to gradually increase time spent together. Once you’re confident they are doing well, the begin transitioning them. At some point, you want them interacting in the space they will ultimately be sharing.

[LBJ10]

LOL, it isn’t that bad, is it? I guess you could do what tanlover does… bring a bottle of wine to the bonding sessions.

[theshrew24]

No, it’s not *that* bad. I guess I am just impatient, jajaja! I am low on neutral space, and I think that is stopping us from moving forward, but I moved both bunnies out of my room and into the common area. It is not neutral space but it is less “claimed” space than my bedroom. Everyone has been calmer out there so far, and the box has *definitely* been working. Also, I am taking advantage of the public parks. I got a friend to monitor these guys in the box while I drove to a park. One scuffle in the hour that we were out there, and none while I had them in the box!

Is there anything I can do to encourage grooming? I know of the banana thing, but is there anything else I can try? That is going to be a huge breakthrough, and I am eagerly waiting for it. Right now, they snuggle up to each other in the box, and I have not tried the bathtub again, so I am not too worried.

[theshrew24]

UPDATE: They are lying next to each other!! Very very close, pressed against each other, and every time one moves, the other will press in closer or turn so that they are facing the same way! I have not been able to capture any grooming (other than self-grooming) but I DID hear the teeth-grinding purr! This is the first time EVER that Wally and Albus seem to like each other, not just tolerate each other!

If I can figure out how to post pictures, I can include a picture of them snuggling.

[LBJ10]

That’s great!

Grooming is a bit over rated, in my opinion. Yes, grooming is good for bonding. But not all bonded pairs are lovey dovey either. If they don’t groom each other right away, that’s ok. It’s more important if they are simply getting along.

[theshrew24]

I am going to be taking a 7-8hr drive home for the holidays. I was wondering if it would be okay to drive with my two buns in the box rather than in separate carriers. They have been doing 5hr sessions together, some days with an additional 3hr session thrown in. I have to break up scuffles about once within the first hour, and always once the box has been on the ground (not moving) for at least 20min.

Do you suggest trying the drive in the box? I do not want anyone to be hurt and would rather go on the way of caution, but I also do not want to pass up a chance to bond them. It would be 7hrs straight of stress, and regardless of whether they go together or in separate carriers, they are going to have to tolerate the drive.

What do you think?

[LBJ10]

There are stories of people doing bonding on road trips. If you decide to try it, make sure to bring a separate carrier just in case the need to be separated.

[theshrew24]

Today was the first day that we started the bonding session going straight into the penned area (i.e, we skipped the box). They spent last night is separate cubicles, but separated only by one wire (rather than two wires and 3″ of space). They did really, really well last night and are doing well at the moment.

One thing I have noticed that makes me become alert and ready for action: the litter box stand-off. Is the litterbox typically an area that rabbits squabble over? Is it the “seat of power” in Rabbit World? Wally spends his time bouncing to and from the two litterboxes that I have set up. They have not fought, but there are times that little spiffs take place (nipping, circling, tense head-to-head waiting).

Is this normal and/or just a small hump to get over? Basically, I want to make sure that this is not something that is going to explode into a “and they were never friends again” situation. It does not seem like it, but I want to make sure, as I have not dealt with rabbits before this.

[theshrew24]

Oh, never mind, I spoke too soon. They just fought. In the box we go!

[LBJ10]

Over the litter box just now?

The litter box can sometimes be a trouble spot, but you say you have two? So he’s trying to defend both? Silly rabbit. I think the worst thing that ever happened was Leopold getting peed on. I couldn’t figure out how he got pee on his fur on his back. Turned out he was refusing to get out of the litter box so Wooly just forced his way in there and peed on Leopold.

How big are your litter boxes? Would a larger size help? You know, so they would both fit at the same time.

[theshrew24]

Yes, I have two, but they are only big enough for one rabbit. I do have a larger one, but only one. I feel like if Wally is going to try to man two litter boxes placed at opposite ends of the pen at once, a larger box is not going to help teach him to share.

I have them back in the pen since they quieted down so quickly after splitting them up and after 10min in the box. They are both fine now.

I am going to try to upload some pictures so you can have a better visual.

[theshrew24]

Okay, so this was them about 3min before the litter box feud. Albus has since gone back to napping, and Wally is eating hay.

And then we have a full view of the penned area:

The red box there on the side is The Bonding Box.

[theshrew24]

It is Day 8 since I restrategized and began the bonding process anew, and things are going wonderfully! They most certainly are not bonded yet, but I can now leave them in a 4.5’x2.5′ pen without any fights. They need supervision, as they will have scuffles, but as far as full-fledge fights, those seem to be a thing of the past! I feel comfortable leaving them alone long enough for me to make food, go to the bathroom, answer the door, even sit in a separate room (sit within earshot) to work or relax with the family. I have been leaving them separate with only one dividing wire rack overnight, and now I feel comfortable enough to sleep in my bed (I had been sleeping on the sofa in the nearest room to where I am housing these boys).

Oh! Wally just flopped! Wally just flopped right next to Albus!!

I feel like Wally craves Albus’s attention and friendship; he’s always the one hopping over, and he gets anxious when I separate them for their individual hourly playtime (this has been cut down from 2 hours as we do more accompanied playtimes).

I know I still have a little ways to go – this is by no means over yet – but the amount of improvement I have seen in just this past week is astounding! I am so very glad that I found this forum!

[LBJ10]

Yay! I would say to keep doing what you’re doing. Some bunnies take longer to bond than others, so keep at it. You have definitely made some real progress.

[theshrew24]

How do you know when your buns are bonded? I think mine might be, but I don’t want to speak too soon.

They will be spending tonight in the same enclosure for the first time.

[LBJ10]

If they are spending the night together and there is no fighting, then they are generally considered bonded. The goal is being able to trust them alone together for extended periods of time. If they require supervision, then they aren’t officially bonded.

[theshrew24]

Thank you.

So, unfortunately, we went back to Square One. Well, okay, maybe not One, because I can time in the box gets no more than 1 fight in a session, if that, but we went back several steps.

I was gone for four days on a vacation to the Universal theme parks with my cousins. Needless to say, they did not get bonding sessions while I was gone. Then, it was Christmas. They actually behaved beautifully that day! I really got a glimpse of what it was like to have bonded rabbits. They played together outside, follow the leader mostly, and there was a lot of grooming. Two days later, though, I caught them trying to fight between the bars. They are now in separate enclosures, with a 3″ space between them, and get late at at intervals separately. I tried to go back to routine, but things have been busy here, and I just couldn’t.

I don’t know why it happened, but I got a bit dejected. They no longer fight next to each other, but I don’t trust them to take any big steps. I am just going to wait until I am back in my apartment with familiar ground before starting up any more work.

I have seen major improvements with these two, so I know it is possible, but I can’t pretend that this setback did not upset me.

Also, how to you deal with criticizing family members? It is funny how I got almost zero support back when I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I was constantly told that we are not a “pet family”, but now that I am trying to bond two animals that fall under the “exotic pet” category, everyone is suddenly an expert on animal behaviour – an expert! I know that this is what has really been bothering me, so waiting until I am back in my space will also let me calm down and start again in a nonthreatening environment.

[LBJ10]

So you took them on a road trip then for Christmas? Did they ride together in a carrier/box? How did they do during the trip?

I wouldn’t get too discouraged. Something or someone in the new surroundings could have set them off once they were settled in. Was it full-blown fighting or did they just have a little tiff? Now that they have had a break, I would definitely continue with the bonding efforts. They are proving to be a more difficult bond, but you have made so much progress so don’t stop now.

Haha! My family takes very little interest in the rabbits oddly. My parents will ask how they are doing and they gave them treats for Christmas, but they don’t try to interpret any behavior they witness. Then again, my boys absolutely adore each other.

[theshrew24]

One massive fight that ended, oddly enough, not when i pulled them away, but because someone squeaked and they both fell over. It – they are weird. Wally also groomed Albus when I put them in The Box. The others have been little tiffs.

My boys remind me of Elsa and Anna from Frozen:
Wally: Do you wanna build a snowman?
Albus: No.
Wally: It doesn’t *have* to be a snowman!
Albus: Go away, Wally!

But heaven forbid Wally lags behind on follow-the-leader.

-Sigh-

I ended up not putting them together because I was riding alone, though since they have been doing all right after our break, I am going to do a nice little drive tomorrow with both together. Tomorrow we start anew!

[theshrew24]

Okay, not fights yet, though we did have a little tiff today. I start them off in The Box. During this time, I clean their cages. Then I set up a 2×2 grid pen, place their litter boxes and water inside. They were fine yesterday, though I think I was a bit nervous. Right now they are just exploring the [small] area. Albus still asks to be groomed. Wally will still groom Albus. Albus does not groom Wally.

[theshrew24]

3×2 grid pen today, no box. We did a stress bonding session to the vet about 2 days ago to get their nails clipped, but they stayed in minimal space because i wanted to make sure that they were not going to lash out at each other for smelling like the vet techs.

They are doing really well at the moment. I think I have been really anxious about it, so I am glad that I took the afternoon off to work with them calmly.

They are not bonded yet, I know this, but when I let them out one at a time or even together but separate for play time, they bounce back to each other and…it is almost like they want me to release the other one. I had Albus out while Wally was locked up because I could not supervise them for a period, and Albus sat next to Wally’s cage and just looked up at me as if to say, “Why can’t Wally come out to play?”

I think I am going to start pushing on with the 3×2 and gradually expand it. If all goes well, I might plan a marathon bonding session next weekend. I feel like my boys COULD be bonded, it’s just I have not pushed through the final step enough to make it.

[theshrew24]

Decided to go straight into a 3×3 grid pen today. Albus starts off just trying to escape, but at the moment both are calm. No fights yet. Unfortunately, I woke up later than I wanted to, and so they will only be in there for about an hour or so before I have to go to class.

I got some wood product packing material in a package a while ago and have given them that – big hit! They love digging, reorganizing it, nibbling on it.

Possible problem: I think Wally is bullying Albus. I know another member had this issue, so I am going to head off to that thread to see how that worked out.

[theshrew24]

Tonight is the night, the beginning of our marathon bonding. I was originally going to do it next weekend, but saw no reason to wait. I think we are at a stalemate, and with school starting, I really need to push forward. I read somewhere else that there is a rough patch you just have to push forward through with minimal separating. It is a Friday night; not only are we going to spend the first night together without any separation, we are going to spend the entire weekend without being separate.

I feel bad leaving them in the pen all weekend long, so depending on how tonight goes, I will take them out to a park. They can stretch their legs, breathe fresh air, and play together.

I will be posting a lot throughout both the night and the weekend as a whole. I am so ready for my boys to be bonded.

[theshrew24]

Had a full-on fight the moment I turned my back. We did 10min of stress bonding as I cleaned up the mess and grabbed a beer. Returned them to the pen. Wally attempted to mount Albus, who tolerated it for 3 sec but then started freaking out. Put them back in The Box, stress session for 3min, then returned them. Both seem a bit strung out and tired. They are now lying down, away from each other, calmly. This is the first night we have done any bonding work, so I was prepared for some skirmishes. They have hay and pellets readily available, and once the 1hr mark hits, I will passing around treats.

[theshrew24]

It’s been 2hrs now. Wally is being a little brat because he wants to sit in the brown litter box but [and probably because] Albus is sitting in it. Mind you, I have 3 boxes set up, one large enough to sit both. So he is stomping his foot, trying to wedge himself in, and buzzing/grunting at intervals.

I am letting them figure it all out. They had a little tuffle, but because it wasn’t a fight (no biting, fur-pulling, etc) I let them be. think both are just tired and cranky and wondering why the heck they are not in their cages.

[LBJ10]

Sorry I haven’t been keeping up. I wasn’t feeling well earlier this week and was sort of MIA.

Well, you know, the grass is always greener. The litter box to be in is always the one currently occupied.

Are you noticing any patterns in what leads up to a fight? Perhaps you can set them up for success by avoiding the triggers.

[theshrew24]

No worries. It helps just to document everything on here. Fights break out usually in the beginning, and usually because Wally is being a bully. He wants a particular toy, he wants a particular litter box (or all the litterboxes). The weird thing is, he will then lick Albus. Wally is just being a little brat, really.

They are currently bickering over the green litter box. *rolls eyes*

I might go do a quick drive to break up the brattiness. I feel like I am dealing with 3yr olds, good lord.

[theshrew24]

So I did the drive, and everyone calmed down afterward, but Wally eventually got bratty again. I have since told them all good night, put them in a litter box, and turned off the lights. Wally is pouting, but Albus is ready to go to sleep. I am hoping that everyone just lets shock and exhaustion take them over.

I swapped the litter boxes, and that threw them off, but not for long. Albus has taken over the green litter box again, but Wally cannot decide if he wants the large one that is now in the prime spot or the green one. He has also taken to humping Albus again.

How do I know if this is just not going to work out? I feel bad giving Wally up, but Albus is my boy, and if they don’t bond, them I need to try to find another rabbit or animal.

[theshrew24]

No marathon bonding this weekend, as I forgot all about the mandatory training session for work. So that will be next weekend, if I can manage it. They were with each other last night from 10:30pm to 5:30am (I got tired). They are together now as I clean the cages, and they will be together once I get back for the night.
Pushing through and trying to keep my positivism up.

[theshrew24]

Wally has now started humping Albus again. I have them separated, as I cannot do the marathon bonding this weekend. He has not humped since the very beginning, so I am a little concerned. Albus seems to take the humping though without complaint, but it is unnerving me. Is this a step backwards or forward? Do I make plans to do a marathon bonding session next weekend?

I am slowly losing faith again.

[LBJ10]

I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the humping. Sometimes something happens in their little bunny brains that makes them think they need to assert themselves. It’s hard knowing what is going on in there, but it certainly isn’t an unusual occurrence. If Albus is accepting of it, then I would just let it happen. It’s always better to let them work things out on their own. If it is upsetting to Albus, then you can redirect Wally after a few seconds to help avoid a fight.

[theshrew24]

These last couple of days, I have been putting the buns together in the make-shift pen during any spare time: in the morning getting dressed, down-time between classes, after work or class as I eat, and even as I get ready for bed. Because of the lack of consecutive hours, I have not done a marathon, nor have I done another overnight session. That being said, I have recently been feeling what it is like to have bonded rabbits.

I have expanded the pen. It is about a 5’x3′ enclosure that remains bunny-proofed. They are relaxed, they don’t squirm anymore about going into the pen, Wally does not bully Albus so much. There have been no flops that I have seen, but they do lounge around a lot. Wally likes to try to knock over some of the barriers (I have the tight space behind the toilet blocked off) and Albus enjoys tattling on him, but otherwise, it is really calm here in my household. There’s hay and bedding everywhere, mind you, as I track it all over the place, but we all seem to be getting along in a place that was once Albus Territory (i.e., not neutral space).

Is this what it is like to have bonded rabbits?

I am going to continue this for the rest of the week.

Is it possible to have rabbits that are semi-bonded, in the sense that they will play and lounge together but at night go into their separate casitas?

[LBJ10]

Bonded rabbits are not necessarily two little love birds. They can be bonded, but simply go about their own business and don’t pay too much attention to each other. This is fine. As long as they get along and there is no fighting, then you’re golden.

I’ve heard stories of people with rabbits that only interact during playtime. I don’t know what the pros or cons for this would be. I mean, if they get along well enough to play together then you would think you would want them to live together since that cuts down on the amount of cleaning that needs to be done.

[theshrew24]

What if I have one rabbit doing all the loving? I have accepted that my boys are not going to be in love, but although Wally has calmed down on both the humping and bullying, Albus refuses to groom him back. This has not led to any problems, that I can tell, but I do feel like it is a little unbalanced.

I definitely think we are ready for a marathon session. I am actually looking forward to this weekend.

[theshrew24]

Looked up and saw this:

I have removed the barrier that barred them from the back of the toilet. They have been really good, so I am using this as a mini test.

[LBJ10]

Aww, aren’t they sweet?

[JackRabbit]

That looks great! Feet out to the back is a very relaxed bunny!

You mentioned the mess . . . I am always amazed at the mess by bonded pair can make. Moshi has always been a messy bunny (rearranging things, emptying the litterbox, etc), but add Marlee’s need to chew and shred to the same space and wow what a mess!

[theshrew24]

Albus is the chewer, and your Moshi sounds like my Wally. He *loves* a good mess!

Update: I have since decided to close the bathroom door but remove the barriers so that they have access to the entirety of my bedroom. They are not allowed on my bed, and I have filled up much of the space with stacks of books, notebooks, my knitting bag, etc so that there are things to break up chasing (if it happens, which it has not as of yet) as well as to allow them different things to jump on, crawl under, and otherwise frolic. Wally likes the box my school books arrived in, and Albus is happy that he can go back to reorganizing my sock box (it’s perfectly sized for a bunny and Albus is a notorious organizer – rabbits are weird).

I was definitely vigilant at first but have since relaxed. Last night was the first time that they entered each other’s cages on their own accord. I was very nervous, but nothing happened – not even a scuffle. Today, we just had a grooming session in Wally’s cage. I still monitor these interactions very closely because I want to avoid a fight at all costs, but they have been really, really good.

Wally has taken to zipping around my room, doing his bunny 500’s, and Albus is lying down looking at him with a face that clearly says he is way too mature for such antics. Poor Wally does not stop trying to get Albus to play. Sometimes we both forget how young Wally is.

I am waiting with held breath at this point. I am looking forward to our weekend bond. I think I want to do some stress sessions in the car, not only because car rides are going to happen rather frequently, but because it gives them a chance to really turn towards each other. I will also be letting them out to the common room for maximum space (for limited time and with much supervision). Since I have taken down the barriers, I have all the CIS grids to create a spacious condo for the two of them.

I may start another thread to document the marathon session. I am hoping that we are almost there. It has been a full 2 months now, and I think everyone is ready to be settled into happy bunny brotherhood.

[LBJ10]

Definitely keep us updated on the marathon!

[Author]

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