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Forum DIET & CARE Carefresh formula with baking soda??

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    • JackRabbit
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        Apparently all types of Carefresh are becoming “new and improved” and now contain baking soda in the products in the manufacturing process. On first thought, even *more* odor control! On second thought, many bunnies (mine included) are known to have the occasional nibble and eat hay off of the litter. The strange thing is that there’s a little picture on the bag of Carefresh Complete that shows a picture of the “old” Carefresh Natural and a picture of the new unbleached Carefresh Complete and it says “new look”.

        I just found this today, and tried calling but Healthy Pet/Carefresh is closed. Also looked on allexperts to try to ask Dana Krempel but she’s on vacation.

        Any ideas on whether Carefresh is still going to be bunny safe or if I need to be looking for a new litter?

        (I looked at other brands of similar stuff and they all say “Warning. Contains wood dust which has been determined to cause cancer.” I also looked at Yesterdays News cat litter, but it looks just like Oxbow pellets!)

        Help!


      • Sarita
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          Here’s what Dana says about baking soda:

          http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2010/7/Rabbit-Eating-Baking-Soda.htm

          As far as cancer, really, what doesn’t seem to cause cancer nowadays :~(


        • JackRabbit
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            Sarita — I saw that and its what prompted my question. The reader was adding baking soda to the litterbox and cleaning with it. If it’s made into it, is it still a problem? If so, why on earth would one of the biggest and most popular litter manufacturers do such a stupid thing? I’m kindof wondering if it’s a gimmic thing like aloe which is, supposedly in just about everything — I’m severly allergic to aloe, but my razor has an “aloe” strip on it and I have yet to have any reaction, same with lotions, yet let me touch a pinhead size drop of real aloe gel and I’ll be covered in hives and reaching for the epipen.


          • Sarita
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              I think she mentions in another post about small amounts are fine. Well baking soda is known to control odor and many litters do seem to have this to control odor. I think if your rabbits aren’t litter eaters and I imagine it only has small amounts it would be fine.

              Well too we do actually bake with baking soda – it’s a small amount of course, but I think that’s what helps make things fluffy…

              I wonder if the razors if perhaps it just has trace amounts of aloe.


            • JackRabbit
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                What if the bunnies nibble a bit of litter? Also, two of mine are major litterbox diggers, do you think it would be a problem since they dig and then groom their feet?

                Edit: Not a kitchen type person here, but I thought it was baking powder that made things fluffy? Should I definitely stay out of the kitchen?!?!


              • Sarita
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                  Here’s something about baking soda and baking powder:

                  http://chemistry.about.com/cs/foodchemistry/f/blbaking.htm

                  I don’t think it’s a problem to use this litter. They just don’t want to ingest a huge amount.


                • JackRabbit
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                    I think it’s still best if I just stay out of the kitchen!

                    What type of litter do you use?


                  • Megabunny
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                      Get the pine pellet bedding! You’ll love it. I believe Sarita uses the same.


                    • Sarita
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                        Yes, I use a pelleted pine litter – it’s called Lone Star Litter (you can only get it in Texas unfortunately) but it’s basically a horse stall pellet. Carefresh is just too pricey in my opinion and I just don’t think it’s very absorbent or good at odor control. I think I pay $6 for a 35 pound bag for mine.


                      • JackRabbit
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                          Megabunny – I know you’re not in Texas, so what brand do you use and where do you get it, now that ‘yall are in the south?


                        • Megabunny
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                            We’all here use whatever we can get. Ya know, it’s just not the same as those Yankee states. But I call around until someone actually says yes, they sell horse pellet bedding, and then I go. I found one in Mount Pleasant, but more recently found one in a closer city at a Tractor Supply. They let me load my own and all..isn’t that nice? Not. Those suckers are heavy, but then I’m getting weak in my aging years. They’re 40 very heavy pounds. I buy 4 at a time and it lasts me a couple of months or so. Hope you like them. I don’t want to have to travel up north to collect a pile of pellet bedding you’re stuck with if you find you don’t like them ha ha


                          • JackRabbit
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                              Hubby picked up a bag of Yesterdays News this afternoon and we had our first experience with any kind of pelleted litter. We put in in the play area litterbox tonight and watched to see everybun’s reaction.

                              Marlee was the first to hit the litterbox. She hopped in, hopped right back out and thumped. She apparently does not like her potty to make noise. She grudgingly checked it out two more times.

                              Moshi made it halfway into the litterbox and froze. Once he realized the litter moved around easily, he was like a kid in a ball pit. He binkied in the litterbox. He didn’t care that it made noise because he can’t hear anyway.

                              While nobun else would pee in it, Kieko was the real test. She has a need to pee at least 15 times in the community litterbox so that there can’t possibly be any scent that is not hers and so that every spot is properly marked. She hopped in the litterbox, got a WTH look on her face, promptly hopped out, and peed on the floor. She hopped in a few more times and did actually pee a spot about the size of a quarter, then hopped back out, went to the spot where the M&Ms had been flopped earlier, and made a perfectly shaped poop mountain.

                              I’m debating on mixing pelleted litter in with the Carefresh to see how that goes, and will be calling Healthy Pet/Carefresh Monday morning. My bunnies and I do not deal well with change.


                            • Megabunny
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                                Oh yeah. Sorry. Didn’t think to suggest that. I would gradually change over…big help I am! Love the story of everybun’s reactions!! What better entertainment for a Saturday night?? Of course, I could be at a Halloween party, but hubby says he doesn’t like those at all. I told him in 27 years, we’ve NEVER been invited to one until we moved here that I can remember. Why ruin his running record?? The people seem like pretty heavy drinkers, though, so maybe it’s just as well.


                              • JackRabbit
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                                  Megabunny — I think I’ll mix some in only in the play area litterbox until I can make sure they understand it’s not food pellets! One good thing, they didn’t track it out of the litterbox. Will be curious to see how well pelleted litter flies once Moshi starts digging.


                                • Sarita
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                                    The Yesterdays News is really quite a bit different from the pelleted pine litters but those reactions are priceless LOL.


                                  • manic_muncher
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                                      LOL! I’m so glad I got to experience how things would go if I had tried out the pelleted litter here. Thanks for that!! Too funny


                                    • JackRabbit
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                                        How are the pine pellets different from Yesterdays News pellets?


                                      • Megabunny
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                                          I’m not sure. The Pine pellets are about $6 for a 40 pound bag. I don’t know how to answer about anything else. I guess I’ve seen Y. News but never used it. I’m guessing the pine pellets are harder than the news, and they do turn to sawdust after peed on, but haven’t had that any problem


                                        • JackRabbit
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                                            I’m a little worried about the sawdust part. Moshi digs in the litterbox and likes to mix things up on there. I’m afraid that he would end up with his feet caked in wet sawdust and them groom them and/or fling sawdust into the hay, all over Marlee, etc. How likely does this sound, given that he will dig?


                                          • Sarita
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                                              That would get messy! Have you tried a litter grate? Definitely helps discourage the diggers.


                                            • Megabunny
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                                                Maybe messy… But what fun!!! I don’t really know that all that much would stick to their feet and be a problem…but I’m not paying for surgery if I’m wrong!


                                              • BunnyHugger
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                                                  Ah! I see! This is why rabbit people tell me pine pellets aren’t messy. Yes, they sure are if you use them the way they’re designed to be used. I’ve used them with horses, and they’re awesome. But I’ve seen barns where horses are actually lying on the hard pellets. They only soften when the horse pees. So now they’re lying on pissy bedding. Gross.

                                                  Nooooo. You’re supposed to dump a couple of buckets of water on the pellets, while they’re in the torn open bag. The whole thing expands like Jiffy Pop, and turns into damp sawdust. The sawdust dries rapidly, and you spread it all around the stall. It’s super absorbent.

                                                  So people are telling me to use this stuff with rabbits, and I’m shaking my head, going, “No way. I’m not doing that in my living room!”

                                                  I find even the recycled paper pellets too hard on their own, and that my bun was dragging hay into his litter to soften it. Which led to using other hay areas as bathroom places. I mixed the paper pellets with Carefresh bedding, and it’s perfect.

                                                  Those pine pellets are too hard for a bunny or any animal to do their leisurely business in. I think they may even lead to sore hocks. You can’t sit on little nasty pieces of wood for hours!

                                                  The reason is, they were designed as a highly compact form of stall bedding. Add water. Waaaay too messy for the house. Unless you do large quantities in your garage, and transport the shavings into the house. I’d be afraid I’d trip and spill them everywhere. Here are videos on how the pine pellets really work:

                                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4siG9u0tz90

                                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tuhGIo1wzA


                                                • Megabunny
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                                                    Ha ha. And I thought that would be a lot of pine pellets for one horse stall! Sorry. My vote is still with them! Are you sorry you brought this up Jack Rabbit?


                                                  • JackRabbit
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                                                      I left two messages for the Carefresh rep, will update when I hear back from him.

                                                      Mixed the YN with Carefresh in the community litterbox (50/50). Kieko is still peeing on the floor. Will reduce the YN portion further for Ms. Fussypants.


                                                    • JackRabbit
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                                                        I left two messages for the Carefresh rep, will update when I hear back from him.

                                                        Mixed the YN with Carefresh in the community litterbox (50/50). Kieko is still peeing on the floor. Will reduce the YN portion further for Ms. Fussypants.


                                                      • JackRabbit
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                                                          Final word! I spoke with Laura Macaulay, the product specialist from Carefresh. She said that a liquid baking soda is used in the manufacturing process to reduce the acidity of the paper (the brown is less acidic than the white and requires less baking soda liquid to adjust the ph), and that Carefresh Natural is the same product as the new brown Carefresh Complete, just new packaging. She said splitting the line into Carefresh Complete (all small animals), Carefresh for Guinea pigs and rabbits (larger paper pieces), and Carefresh for Hamsters and Gerbils (smaller pieces) was a marketing idea as was adding “with baking soda”. So, she said its the same product I’ve been using for the past year and that I’m not the first to call. I have her email and direct line now if anyone wants them.


                                                        • Megabunny
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                                                            You rock Jack rabbit!


                                                          • JackRabbit
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                                                              Megabunny — one of these days I’ll tell you what I did to get them to return my calls!

                                                              I’m still going to try to figure out a way to mix them (the YN doesn’t seem to track as easily), but may have to punt that idea when it comes to Kieko.


                                                            • Phil
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                                                                Hi All,

                                                                I have two nine year old Mini Rex rabbits.  I’ve had them since they were 2-4 weeks old.  I use carefresh.  For the longest time I used old newspaper but I had to change their litter every 2 days.  I did a ton of research long ago and found out the following:

                                                                You should not use pine, cedar or other aromatic litter absorbers.  They leach out a smell that you can clearly detect and is probably pleasant to you.  It’s the phenol in the wood shaving.  It gets magnified as your bunny does what he/she is supposed to do.  Rabbits airways are very sensitive and, from what I’ve read, the phenols damage and can interfere with proper liver function of your rabbit.  Your rabbit won’t die overnight and probably not over a year but if you use these products, you are shortening the rabbit’s lifespan (I thought I read it can be 2-4 years vs the average of 10 for house rabbits – need to reverify that).

                                                                 To me, my question isn’t as much whether we can use the new carefresh with bakingsoda as much of ingestion as it is inhalation.  That’s the question I need answered to buy it.  With a proper false bottom in your litter pan (meaning it holds the rabbits weight has 1/4″ x 1/4″ or less spacing and is high enough off the floor of the pan (at least 1″)) along with appropriate carefresh dispersion, you shouldn’t have a big problem with your rabbits eating the stuff.

                                                                I won’t knowingly put my rabbit at risk.

                                                                 Does anyone have any information on the effervescence effect of the new product, the chemicals released and impact?

                                                                 

                                                                Best,

                                                                –Phil


                                                              • Sarita
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                                                                  Hi Phil, this post is 6 months old – we ask that member do not respond to old threads…it is confusing and the issue has been resolved. Going to lock this.

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                                                              Forum DIET & CARE Carefresh formula with baking soda??