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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A I don’t know what to do…

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    • Tessie
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        Hey everyone, 

        So Luna and Teddy have been with someone who runs a rabbit rescue and bonds rabbits professionally. 

        They’ve been there since Saturday. On Monday morning she said that they were one of the worst introductions she’s ever done but that they had made progress and had 12 hours of snuggling and a bit of grooming. So I was confident and hopeful that everything would work out okay. 

        But she’s just emailed me saying “Last night endured 3 of the same violent fights, despite them being physically removed from the cage for 10 minutes to calm down each time. I had to remove their jaws from each other, as they clamped on and would not let go. They have been separated since 3am. I am happy to try one more time tonight, based alone on the fact we had 12 hours of snuggling and a little grooming, but ultimately, and realistically, I am very hesitant about them ever having a bond”. 

        Im really sad, I don’t know what to do. 

        I’m moving back home soon and my parents have always been clear that they don’t really want the rabbits at all, and that if they don’t bond, one of them has to go. There’s no room for them to be kept separately here. 

        Obviously I’m still hoping to hear good news tomorrow morning but I don’t know what to do otherwise. 

        I really thought things were going to work out….. 

        What do I do? 


      • JackRabbit
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          I dont know if this is an option for you but if space is the issue, what about an over/under type of cage? A NIC condo without openings or ramps between levels or like the foster (?) option on the leithpetwerks condos would take up the same floor space as a single cage. You would have to give them separate exercise/play times but that only involves your time.

          If they don’t bond, hopefully this type of living arrangement would be an option with your parents so you dont have to give up one of your bunnies.


        • DianeK
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            It sounds like the bonder is really pushing the issue. They had three fights, and were given a 10 minute time out? In my limited experience (at least with my girls) rabbits are very grudgey and need days, if not weeks, between nasty fights. To me, that sort of violence indicates the bond that existed is completely broken, so there’s really no harm in just separating them. I agree with the above poster, an apartment type situation, and then in a few weeks or even a month some serious, no-holds barred stress-bonding. 

            I wouldn’t give up, but I do think they need time and space to simmer down before bonding them again. I know how frustrating, heart-breaking and patience trying it is. I’m on a timeline myself, I’m in the bonding process with my two young does that got into a horrid fight about a month ago. This is my husbands and mine third attempt, and I am pulling out all the stops with the stress-bonding… we’re talking a big plastic cart on wheels that get drug around on my gravel driveway, jets of water if one acts out, a gentle swinging motion to slide them together. And it’s working. Slowly. They have until Saturday to complete the bond, or they will be riding in separate cages all the way from Alaska to Vermont, so it really in their best interest to get along – lol!

            Good luck to you, I know it seems hopeless but don’t give up!


          • Tessie
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              Yes, well, I kinda feel like if this woman can’t do it then I definitely can’t. :/

              I’m moving back to my parents in a couple of weeks.
              Hoping it goes well tonight otherwise I don’t know what to do.

              Feeling defeated


            • Sarita
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                Okay, so I just looked at your bonding thread and the last post was May 1st – did you do anything further after that?


              • Tessie
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                  Not really, we did the washing machine a few times, and that was okay. I guess I’ll go back to that if there’s no luck with this lady, but I’m running out of time.

                  But no, it was exam/coursework season for me and then they’ve been with this lady who is supposedly an expert. :/


                • DianeK
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                    I wouldn’t put total trust into the rabbit expert (to me, there is no such thing!) The fact that your rabbits got into it so violently indicates to me that she wasn’t paying enough attention. I personally would be furious in my rabbits were able to escalate to the point of locking jaws onto each other, it seems there are *generally* warning signs to an all-out assault. And them to put them back together? Three times??? I’m getting pissed just thinking about it!

                    What Teddy and Luna have from you is massive emotional investment and undivided attention. I think are car ride to the vet would be a good place to start, to make sure there’s no injuries from the fight and also any health problems that would prevent them from bonding. Then, I’d give them at least several days to cool off. After that, let the relentless stress bonding begin. Car rides, a slowly filling bathtub, a can of coins shaken about when one gets snotty, etc., followed by a relaxation til one gets sassy… wash, rinse, repeat. It really is a battle of wills!


                  • BunnyBrigade
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                      I have a talk with your parents about them being willing to take both of the buns. I would not give up on the bond of the two rabbits. I would just give them some time. My bonded pair, Ian and Skipper, had actually started out very aggressive. They tried to physically fight through bars and Skipper had latched onto his face pretty good too at one point. They are bonded now, however, it take about a year. And through out that year they were placed next to each other in their pens and I had down scent swapping. I may be an exception to the rule. But I don’t think so. I think any two buns can be bonded. You just need to give them time.


                    • Tessie
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                        Thanks for all the support everyone, it makes me feel a bit better!
                        My parents are being really nice about it all for now, so maybe it’s not as bad as I think.

                        I’ll update everyone tomorrow


                      • LongEaredLions
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                          I hope that things work out. I agree a 2 leveled cage would be good, 1 level for each bun. Stay positive, they still have a chance of bonding!


                        • tanlover14
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                            Let me know how it is going but I will point out – (in my opinion) the lady bonding your rabbits made a few mistakes from just the little bit you told us. First off, separating when they fight will cause them to fight more typically. They catch on really quickly and then teaches them that fighting with the opposite rabbit will get them what they want – the other rabbit away from them. Second, I agree with Diane, the fact the your rabbits could get into as bad as a scuffle as she says indicates there is something off. I have bonded (and been on the sidelines) for bonding a very large amount of rabbits. One of the first things I do if a situation isn’t working, is switch it up. It bothers me that she didn’t do this. It’s only breeding/causing more fighting between the two if they’re being introduced constantly in an area/set-up that is getting no positive results.


                          • Troller
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                              Personally it sounds like the woman might be doing things wrongs. As for experts, back when I was bonding my giants I hit a rough patch and called in an expert. I warned him what they were like but he was still curious and when he experimented they ended up getting into a fight the likes of which never happened before. He called his own senior expert and she told me because I didn’t let the bunnies choose their own mate that my two wouldn’t be able to bond.

                              I almost gave up, but reexamined my approach and tried again. Two months after that I had two bonded rabbits. I truly believe some people get stuck in their approach or a certain belief and will not be taken off of it. If one expert doesn’t work, and you don’t have the time to do it yourself, try a second expert. Also beware any that call themselves experts…until we have some solid criteria for that anyone can bond a few buns and call themselves that.


                            • Tessie
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                                Today she says:
                                “Luna refuses to accept Theodore. After studying their behaviour, Theodore was nervous but willing to be friends, Luna would groom, lulling him into a false sense of security, and then nip hard, not letting go.

                                I even used the banana trick (smushing it on their faces to induce grooming, so the bunny receiving the “groom” thinks it is a genuine act of grooming) and whilst happy to receive the groom, as soon as it was done, Luna would attack.”


                              • Tessie
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                                  What do you guys reckon I should do? I want her to keep trying at least….

                                  Is there any way to deal with a bond where one bunny in particular has an attitude problem?


                                • Deleted User
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                                    I’m SO sorry Tessie!
                                    I don’t normally post on bonding threads (as I think you may know?) cause I have absolutely NO idea. I just wanted to say how sorry I am to read all this – I know how much you love your Luna and Teddy and how important it is for you to have them bonded. I can only imagine your disappointment and frustration. Sending Luna and Teddy ‘bonding’ vibes, and I’m thinking of you all Tessie.


                                  • tanlover14
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                                      First of all…. this “expert” says Luna is lolling him into a false sense of security? No. A few recent studies popped up in the vet medical journal I just bought for exotics and all studies have shown that aggressive is always a fear-based response in rabbits. No indication of rabbits EVER exhibiting aggressive behavior “just because”. Aggression in bonding is almost always the fear of trusting the other rabbit.

                                      Personally, I think you need to find a new “expert” or attempt bonding yourself. First off, I do consider myself quite an “expert” on rabbit bonding and by expert, I only believe you can really call yourself experienced. As Troller stated, you will find a lot of experts who refuse to alter their ways and situations regarding bonding to fit the bunnies that are being bonded. That’s the NUMBER ONE thing I tell people when they come to me for bonding help. There is absolutely NO set way of bonding – there is of course general guidelines – but they are guidelines and only basic guidelines to help begin a bond. An experienced (and knowledgable) bonder will use normal guidelines to help build a relationship between the two but will use the reactions of the rabbits to help determine the most positive direction in which to bond. This “expert” is not doing that at all. Personally, I think it’s more likely she’s inhibiting the bond then helping the situation at all.

                                      Rabbits tend to rely on a group setting as it’s how they conquer dangerous situations in the wild. Domesticated rabbits are not wild but you can find a lot of their primal instincts deriving from wild rabbits instincts. Rabbits in the wild live in very complex societies with a complex pecking order that is only established after their version of “bonding” or acceptance into the group. This is what makes rabbits difficult to bond. They must learn to completely trust and accept the other rabbit into their group – and doing so in nature means trusting this other rabbit with their own (and the groups) safety.

                                      Sorry for that babbling, haha. I just find it interesting and definitely get off on a tangent sometimes.

                                      I may have missed this but are you willing to attempt to bond them yourself? I would definitely be up for the challenge of helping you. And I’m sure a ton of other people would be willing to comment and post along the way as well.


                                    • Tessie
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                                        Hey everyone,

                                        First of all thanks for all the support, it means a lot to me, I’m feeling really down about this.

                                        Um, this lady has never called herself an ‘expert’ but she’s bonded hundreds of bunnies. She’s very nice, but I agree that perhaps she isn’t being very flexible with how she’s doing this. From what I can understand she’s putting them together in the same cage over and over again for these socialisations, which I don’t think is a good idea. Clearly it was working for a bit, but now it’s not.

                                        This morning she said she tried them again last night and now Teddy has a small injury which she’ll take him to the vet for today.
                                        She says: “There really is only two options in situations like these. Get each bunny a partner of their own and have two setups, or if that is not feasible, rehome one, and seek a partner for the remaining rabbit”

                                        I’m really disappointed, I needed this to work

                                        TL – I guess I’m willing to try it myself… it makes me very nervous and the attempts I did so far weren’t very good (Except the washing machine, which was okay). I wanted someone else to do it just because it’s so stressful and I was thinking that someone else would know better than me, and probably it would be quicker and so on. So I guess I can try, but they really do fight instantly based on my experience so far. It would be great to have help and support from you and any others that have experience, thank you very much.

                                        Trouble is, there is very little neutral space in my house, if any. I don’t think there’s anywhere they haven’t been.
                                        Also, I’m on a time limit like I say. There’s no room for two kept separately at my parents and they don’t even really want one. I’ve got about a month to try and make it work, the only good news is I have quite a lot of free time now the school year is over.

                                        There’s also the slight complication of the TV people coming to film them. Apparently they’re really interested in the bonding process, they want to film all of that too. :/

                                        Thanks so much everyone for all the support.
                                        I’m getting the bunnies back on Saturday, and then I guess my only option is to attempt to bond them myself.


                                      • Sindri
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                                          I am sorry to hear that your bonding assistance isn’t working. I have had a hard time with trying to bond my two as well and would love to have had someone just take them from me and try. Its a tuff situation and I totally know how you must be feeling. I am sure the stress of having to get them bonded by a certain time adds to the stress. I have tried many things with my 2 in the past. tanlover14’s website has good info on it and I tried some things from there. What worked the best thus far was bonding in a box. I wish I had started there instead of what I call the traditional tub space I read so much about in the past. They just had way too much room to chase and go at it in spaces like that. I put them in a small box that just fit the 2 inside. As soon as they were in my male rabbit Usagi usually started to attack so I would shake the box and move it across the floor it would break the fight up and kind of scare them so they wouldn’t fight. Whenever they would fight I would move the box. Later I moved them to a bigger box I made with NIC grids and strolled them in a stroller. I seen progress with my male grooming my female Kilala. She never moved or fought back. Then one day she did and he had gotten into her bunny room and they fought horribly. I have been on a break.

                                          So perhaps you could try something like that or a laundry basket? I am not sure if you tried that in the past? If you do decide to bond on your own I would give them a few days off when you get them back. I know time is an issue but I am sure they could use a break.
                                          Also for the lack of neutral space perhaps you can create one using an expen that is cover with blankets so they cant see out. This way it will create a neutral area. I am going to be doing something like that myself being I have ran out of neutral space here as well. Someone also told me if the weather was good to try to set up a expen outside and create a neutral area to bond in. I am not sure of your outdoor space. I am by no means a rabbit bonding expert but maybe some of these ideas may help you out.

                                          I wish you the best of luck. I hope you find something quickly that works for you and the bonding goes well.


                                        • LongEaredLions
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                                            I am sorry, I know this is stressful. I think it will work out, if you find the right method. Don’t give up. In the beginning, you said they were snuggling and grooming. This means they don’t hate each other. I would agree with a break, bonding is very stressful on the bunnies too, which can cause them to lash out. I know this isn’t much help, but I felt like you needed some encouragement. ((((Big Hugs))))


                                          • BunnyBrigade
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                                              I know this has been suggested, but I would definitely try the car approach. When I first started with Skipper and Ian, they would fight like cats and dogs. But after a few dates in the car they started to warm up to each other and started to get along. And don’t I feel as if the banana trick is not an end all be all thing. I tried the trick with my buns and it didn’t work. Which is surprising because they LOVE food. And they will practically bite your fingers off to get to the piece of banana that you’re holding out for them. Any way, the other night I caught Skipper grooming Ian, which was a complete shock because she wouldn’t do it with the banana. I feel like she finally felt ready to groom him, so she did. I feel like you need to give them more time. Which I know you don’t really have. But when it comes to bonding, you can’t rush the relationship. It’s like, how would you like it if your parents set you up with a guy and expected the two of you to hit it off and get married within two weeks? I would hate that! And to be honest, when you’re bonding buns that’s sort of what the situation is like. You got to let them get used to each other and take it at their own pace. And shake things up a bit. Remember, your two buns are dating right now and sometimes that means more time or changing the environment. =p


                                            • tanlover14
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                                                Tessie, don’t be too worried! Just try and think positively about it (I know it’s not always that easy!)

                                                I see you had a positive point with the washing machine. One of the biggest things is to continue with something you have some success in for awhile and then switch it up and see if you can get them to progress to that point elsewhere. Don’t worry about the neutral space. SO many ways to create neutral space. Believe me, I have NO neutral space left in my house either! And didn’t have for my last three bonds!

                                                I prefer the box method which Sindriona mentioned. I never had much luck in the bathtub either – everyone just chased each other in circles. But a lot of people I help have great success with the bathtub! You definitely have to go into bonding with an open mind though!

                                                And what is this TV thing about? I think I missed a ton while I’ve been gone! LOL


                                              • Tessie
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                                                  There’s some people making a tv show about pets and Teddy and Luna are going to be on it. They want to film the whole bonding process… :/

                                                  I’ll try not to be too miserable about it, I’m just panicking I guess.

                                                  I don’t know how to progress from the washing machine.
                                                  I can try the box thing and those other ideas


                                                • Whobott
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                                                    Cool. I would love to watch it if you could give me the info. I really hope you can bond them! I think with a little time and pertinence you can (((((vibes)))))


                                                  • Sindri
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                                                      I forgot to mention when I progressed to a bigger box. I did when they spent about 40 to 45 minutes together without a fight. I would say it took about 2 weeks or so. I cant totally remember. We made it to a bigger box. I tried an expen made into a small space but bigger than the box they fought too much. Nothing seem to break up the fights after awhile not even the vacuum. So I went back to the box. Then I took the break because they got into a huge fight hence we have been on that break I mentioned. So try things out until they seem to be getting along and try to make the space bigger or move to something else if they fight really badly go back to what was working. Like TanLover has said go with something that you have had positive results with. Hopefully you find something that works for you. I wish you luck. I am excited to hear about your show too!

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                                                  Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A I don’t know what to do…