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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum BEHAVIOR My two are impossible (vent)

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    • Stickerbunny
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        So, as some of you (especially jersey) know I have been having CONSTANT trouble with my two and their litter habits. I have tried every suggestion you guys could give, tried rewarding, tried redirecting, tried confining as much as I could, tried blocking areas off, tried giving them a bazillion litter boxes, etc etc. Then one day, poof they were back to perfect litter habits for no reason. Then, a bit later, they were back to bad litter habits, again for no reason. Now, they are leaving more poop and pee outside the box than in again.

        The really sad part is, they KNOW they aren’t supposed to go outside the box. If I walk in on them doing their business on the floor, they run to the litter box and look at me like “What? Wasn’t doing anything!” And they finish in their litter boxes.

        I had no problems with them at all until I bonded them. Since then, I have had nothing but problems with them about everything from litter box habits to chewing to digging to biting. Enjoying hanging out with them as a pair is a rare thing, most the time it’s just frustrating. I miss my solo bunnies, they were so much fun and so sweet and so well behaved when they were solo. Some days, I really regret bonding them.

        And I know… you can’t separate a pair. And I wouldn’t. They love each other. And they’re both here for life, even if I feel like pulling my own hair out most days trying to train them. I’ve exhausted every resource I can on methods though, here for like two years trying everything you could suggest, other sites, training sites, vets, etc. I wish there were professional rabbit trainers like dog trainers available in every area.  

        I’m starting to just resign myself to living in a urine smelling home with bare carpets and holes in the walls and no baseboards, that or turn my entire house into a giant cage by lining every wall with NIC panels and flooring everything with cheap linoleum so they can’t reach ANYTHING… actually, wonder if option #2 would get me onto one of those “crazy about their pets” TV shows like the cat owner that had their house redesigned to suit the cat?

        Ah well, not really looking for advice, since I’ve already drained you guys on it I think. Just kinda venting. lol


      • LBJ10
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          Have you tried separating them temporarily to see if it is one more than the other? Or if one is “feeding” off the other?


        • Stickerbunny
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            They’ve been separated before due to fighting, I know who is the biggest problem – Stickers. She’s always been a bit of a brat, but she was manageable when she was solo. She is much, much younger than he is (he was 4 and she was 8 months when they bonded). When they bonded, they both started doing all the stuff she would do and 10x worse than she was about them. But, I don’t know how to stop that, short of separating them, which I don’t want to do since it upsets them. When they were fighting and apart, they both went back to good litter habits and not chewing beyond normal bunny nibbling and Powder was allowed back out in the front rooms free roam (and sleeping in my bed) since he was being a good bun again and she stayed in their room. The day they got back together, the bad behavior started again. And they go through phases of being good for a day or two. But nothing sticks when they are together. :s


          • LBJ10
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              I see, well I suppose there is no harm in allowing Powder daily outings to play outside of their room and leaving Stickers in there. Unless you think that would trigger Stickers every time Powder returns to the room.

              Sometimes I just let Leopold out into the living room, for example, and leave Wooly in their room. Wooly doesn’t like hopping around on the slick floors too much anyway. Leopold never has any accidents in the living room. It seems weird, but I have heard other people reporting similar things.


            • jerseygirl
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                I know who is the biggest problem – Stickers

                Somehow I’m not surprised by that. She’s even same colouring as Jersey. They’re so pretty yet sooo exasperating!
                How old is Stickers now?

                The really sad part is, they KNOW they aren’t supposed to go outside the box. If I walk in on them doing their business on the floor, they run to the litter box and look at me like “What? Wasn’t doing anything!” And they finish in their litter boxes.

                It feels like spite doesn’t it? Lol. That might have more to do with your having rewarded for using the box in the past. i.e. They see you, jump in box to finish business expecting a reward. The big question is WHY don’t they start in the box in the first place right.

                I do understand mixed feelings in having bonding them. I’ve certainly felt the same at times. Yet I see how tight J&R seem for the most part.

                What’s really odd about your pair is that they suddenly came good with litter habits.
                And also during temporary separation.

                It’s really hard to nut things out when there seems to be multiple triggers for behaviours. No clear pattern. I know I’ve had good “zones” for a while where I could let J&R be and her littering was more under control. Then it changed and it became a no go zone. Even Rumball started marking there. There just seemed to be no rhyme or reason to it I could figure out. I’ve gone around in circles with possible reasons and trying remedies.

                I know you weren’t looking for advice specifically but LBJ’s idea is good. How about some part time separation? A good portion if the day apart and overnight together for example?

                that or turn my entire house into a giant cage by lining every wall with NIC panels and flooring everything with cheap linoleum so they can’t reach ANYTHING

                Mmm.. What about an area like a playground made feom grids set up for them? Chew City. Increasing vertical space so they can burn energy going up and down?
                Even in their current room perhaps.

                A couple things I’ve thought about in the past regarding littering habits:
                Hormonal imbalance. Could something like feliway work for rabbits? Is it safe?
                Or a calming homeopathic remedy?
                Foods: could buns react like children to certain food additives? Or can they get “hot” like horses on certain feeds and it affect behaviour.
                Greens: do the diuretic ones exacerbate the urinating problem? I only thought of this recently when I had an improvement it Jerseys habits. I realized I wasn’t feeding endive like I used to. I haven’t tested the theory…
                Stress: does the act of peeing act as a stress relief? Release endorphins? But why out of the box???!
                Does adrenaline hang in the system longer in some rabbits more then others? Does that effect their behaviour?
                Pain: is it a coping mechanism for discomfort? (With Jersey, she gets cranky and gets tooth spurs now so I’d wondered if her habits were connected.)
                And my favourite: would a pet psychic provide answers?
                I’ve considered consulting one in desperation even though I’m partially skeptical.

                Apologies for my long post. As you know, it’s a subject I’ve spent a lot of thought on! One you definitely need to vent on from time to time. You love them to death and beyond but that doesn’t mean the frustration takes its toll sometimes. I empathize fully with you Stickerbunny.


              • jerseygirl
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                  I know you weren’t serious in covering your home in NIC grids but it reminded me of these pics i had saved for inspiration.
                  Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
                  Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos


                • tanlover14
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                    Have you tried clicker training to help reinforcement positive with good litter habits? That’s how I litter trained Fleury (he got VERY aggressive about even being herded towards the darn box!). Not sure if I mentioned this to you before or not!


                  • Stickerbunny
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                      That’s a nice NIC set up jersey Though, Powder would still have his panic attacks in it and I would probably find him perched on the top of the NIC grids hanging on for dear life like when I tried an x-pen setup on him lol (funny seeing a 8lb rabbit balancing on the pencil thin top of an x-pen like he’s a bird and is too scared to jump down) – and the foam grids they would eat, rather than just chew and I worry about them getting a blockage. They don’t just chew anything, it’s all edible in their eyes. And paper or cardboard which is edible, is all litter in their eyes. Makes getting them chewing toys really tough, same with digging toys since any diggy box becomes a litter box in a few minutes. Powder loves cardboard rolls, but Stickers doesn’t. The only thing I can get her to chew on toy wise is willow balls, which lasts an hour and is $5 a ball. Which is funny, because she’ll chew anything if it’s not a toy I want her to chew.

                      Stickers is, oh geez, not sure and I can’t get my profile to load she was about 4 months when I joined the site, so 2-3 now? She’s calmed down a lot, but she’s still just so _wild_ … I did finally get a tooth purr out of her the other day though. Better than the thump and foot flick she usually gives when I pet her.

                      And yeah for sure it feels like spite when they do it. lol Especially when they stare at me when I say “no” when they are doing something, then the second my head turns away, they go right back at it. We have daily staring contests nowadays. ha

                      Not sure if diet is a factor – my two don’t really get the same veggies all the time, the only staple is romaine (sometimes that is all they get, if I can’t get to the store 20 miles away, since the close one just carries that). Doesn’t seem to change anything. Out time makes them mess _less_, but still not good habits.

                      I know with Powder, a main factor is the fact he is locked in a bunny room all night. As soon as his door closes, he stops using his box and I can’t let them be free roam, since Stickers is so wild. Another factor is how messy the box gets, he is a finicky rabbit and as soon as the litter box has been used once or twice, he thinks it needs cleaned (which is why they have four at all times), but I clean it out a lot for him (note: multiple times a day). Also got litter screens so I can dump the droppings (what he doesn’t like to step on) out without having to dump the whole box.

                      With her, I can’t identify ANY factors at all, she just seems to use it when she feels like it and doesn’t when she doesn’t. And it’s SO frustrating because it’s not like she’s using a spot way away from her litter box either – she goes RIGHT OUTSIDE the litter box, or in between two of the litter boxes. If I move them, or add another box, she just picks a spot outside the box again. If I cover the outside with something so she can’t pee right outside a box comfortably, she finds a corner and doesn’t even use the litterbox at all. At the start of their bond, I know she didn’t want to use the litterbox because he’d corner her if she did and hump her, but he hasn’t done that for over a year now. I was hoping she’d go back to the good litter habits after they worked out the humping, but nope. I put one litter box up high for her when humping was still a problem so she could go do her business in peace (he doesn’t jump much) and she used it, but still not very much.

                      I did find something that seemed to help a little, which was a one of those hay baskets they sell in pet stores, if I sat it in their litterbox like a potty chair they loved to sit in that and use it. But, it got stinky really fast and was impossible to clean. And at $9 a piece, bit pricey to supply rabbit potty chairs every week (I only figured out they liked it because I was TRYING to use it as a hay basket and … they had other ideas for it). I tried arranging their actual hay to try to mimic it, but it has to be the kind of woven/sewed together timmy hay basket and I am not really that good at crafting to make one. :s

                      As for letting Powder out without her, unfortunately he’s so in love he will only stay out of her sight for a few minutes. I tried letting him run around in the living room since he’s a good bunny out there usually (he loves phone cords, but those can be covered, otherwise he’s just a chin rubbing, binkying machine when he’s out there) but all he did was hop around a minute, notice she wasn’t with him and start pushing on the door to get back to her. He’s a very loyal husbun. Except when it comes to food, he’ll steal her food out of her mouth and run away, but once it’s done he always goes right back to her side too. lol

                      Did I mention they are frustrating? o.O

                      Though, I did have one success – we found a bed they won’t pee on ! http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3088318&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo <— that, but without the hole on the top …. they either both sleep on top of it cuddled up, or one sleeps inside and the other on top, it's adorable.


                    • Stickerbunny
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                        Posted By tanlover14 on 11/19/2013 10:42 PM

                        Have you tried clicker training to help reinforcement positive with good litter habits? That’s how I litter trained Fleury (he got VERY aggressive about even being herded towards the darn box!). Not sure if I mentioned this to you before or not!

                        Stickers is not a fan of clickers. And if I am holding a treat for training, she will not do anything (tricks etc) because she’s too busy trying to dig/bite my hands to get the treat out of them. A click is 100% ignored, a verbal command is 100% ignored. If the treat is left out of her scent/sight range, she doesn’t relate her behavior to the treat since I have to reach up to the desk to get it, making it take too long between her behavior and her treat. When I finally do get her to do something and she gets rewarded for it, she is only interested in doing it as long as every time, she gets a reward for it. Which is probably why when she sees me, she hops into the box, as jersey said expecting a reward most likely, since it only matters to her if I am in view and she might get something out of it. If I am out of sight, she doesn’t care what I want her to do.

                        Powder responds well enough to verbal commands, I can usually train him to do stuff I want, as long as she’s off sleeping or something and he’s not distracted by her. If she’s around, his behavior is hard to predict though. He may or may not respond to training.


                      • LBJ10
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                          The part about the humping. It sort of reminds me of cats that feel threatened by another cat living with them. If the litter box is not somewhere where they have an “out”, then they won’t use it. Where does the litter box usually get placed? In a corner?


                        • Baxter n Boos Mom
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                            I feel your pain. My buns used to have close to perfect litter box habits until I bonded them. I do believe for mine it is a territorial issue. I ended up getting vinyl sheet to place over the carpet to help train them….and they got a litter better. We removed the vinyl – now they’re pooing everywhere again…and peeing in a couple spots – right next to their litter boxes.

                            I wish there was a rabbit whisperer that could come over and help with litter box habits and handling. That would be so awesome!


                          • Stickerbunny
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                              Posted By LBJ10 on 11/20/2013 11:02 AM

                              The part about the humping. It sort of reminds me of cats that feel threatened by another cat living with them. If the litter box is not somewhere where they have an “out”, then they won’t use it. Where does the litter box usually get placed? In a corner?

                              They have four – two are in corners, two are not. Two are regular sized, one is x-large and one is a pet store cage bottom (the cage she came in from her foster, I was hoping she’d use that since it was her litterbox as a solo bunny). One was up in the air while he was humping her, so she could have her own private potty and she would jump up and use it sometimes, but still didn’t use it much (Powder doesn’t jump unless scared, so she could get away from him that way). I’ve seen them both climb in a litter box together recently to eat hay and there has been no humping for over a year. She seems more trusting of him since he stopped and she’ll sleep snuggled up to him now where she wouldn’t before. But, it didn’t help litterbox habits.

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                          Forum BEHAVIOR My two are impossible (vent)