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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS

Forum DIET & CARE 8 yr old mixed dwarf w/ bad teeth

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    • madmitz
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        I adopted my male dwarf 7 years ago. He was full grown at that time so I estimate his age around 8. I took him to the vet this morning for a running eye and she said his back teeth have overgrown he will only eat pellets and carrots and sometimes apple. He grooms himself and runs around the house at playtime. I know the odds of him surviving surgery are slim but I don’t know when his time is? Should he be put to sleep? he is such a sweet boy and I adore him…I dont want him to suffer. 

        thank you for taking the time to read my post. I appreciate any response.


      • AnnaW
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          This is the exact same as my 8 year old netherland dwarf x lionhead had. I took him to the vets to have him put through surgery, his back teeth were filed right down and he was ok for a while, but unfortunately because their teeth are always growing it recurred within about four months
          After this time, he became very unwell and was clearly in pain, so i felt i had no choice but to put him to sleep. After his first surgery I was feeding him porridge with banana in everyday, he loved it
          Hope this helps x


        • Sarita
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            This is not an actual surgery – it is a procedure…did this vet tell you that the odds of surviving this procedure are slim? Or is that just your fear.

            This is certainly not a life threatening procedure and a rabbit experienced vet should be able to do this procedure without difficulty. You do need to have bloodwork done as with any rabbit this age.

            I have had many seniors older than 8 have their teeth filed regularly. Yes, it is going to continue to occur but by no means a reason to euthanize. It may be too that he goes longer than 4 months between teeth filings.


          • madmitz
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              Thank you for the replies. Yes, this vet did say the outcome was not great and that his teeth will just overgrow again. She said his one back bottom tooth fell out and the top tooth has grown down to the bottom gum line. Unfortunately I seem to be in an area where it’s difficult to find an exotic vet. All the vets in my area have told me to fast my bunny before surgery, which I know is dangerous. A few years ago, I lost a bunny within an hour post-op. I am very afraid that I will cause him more stress. He was so scared today that he froze! He was hard to the touch, like a rock


            • Sarita
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                It does sound like you have a vet who is not knowledgeable. My vet uses isoflurane gas to put my rabbits under for dental work. The outcome can actually be better since once the molar is filed he will not have the pain he did.

                I have a 5 year old rabbit who goes under regularly has has not bottom left molars.

                Can you get a second opinion from another vet.


              • madmitz
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                  Yes, I will get a second opinion. I was referred to a vet a few towns over so i will call or email them this evening. My bun has been such a dear and had a tough beginning, I just want what is best for him. I will follow up with the information they give me. Thank you for your help!


                • madmitz
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                    If you dont mind me asking, what is the estimated cost of that procedure? I understand it may be different there than here (canada) but it might give me a general idea


                  • Sarita
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                      I have no idea – the costs vary greatly even here in the US. It’s best to get an estimate from the vet you chose to do the procedure.


                    • madmitz
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                        Sorry, what I ment to ask was a ball park of what you are charged for the procedure? I’m assuming it is not a large amount if it is done regularly?
                        I still have not heard back from the Vet and I fear that they will tell me anything over the phone. I’m reluctant to drive all that way with such a frightened animal to be told that the odds are against him. He was wild when I adopted him as an adult and he is still quite sensitive. I also just lost my 16 yr old dog a few months ago and I am finding this very difficult


                      • Sarita
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                          Well most vets cannot make a determination over the phone if they have never examined your rabbit…at least none that I know. I pay around $200 which I think is alot and it really may be less but not much I don’t think…but some members pay considerably less so like I said, prices are all over the place.


                        • madmitz
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                            He has an appiontment to be assessed on friday at 10:00am. I really hope everything goes smoothly.


                          • AnnaW
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                              Good luck, I hope everything goes smoothly for you also.
                              The procedure is often problem free as far as I know, it is my belief that my Biscuit was just reaching the end of his time with us, and his overgrown teeth were coincidentally at the same time as this, the prodecure itself went well
                              Good luck!


                            • madmitz
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                                Thank you I think I can only feel right about this if I do what I can to help him. Other then his darn teeth, hes perfect.


                              • Sarita
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                                  Please keep us updated!


                                • madmitz
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                                    I will. Thank you both for your help.


                                  • madmitz
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                                      Well, today wasn’t what I expected. He had another exam and has been put on pain medication. He was dehydrated so we had them give him some fluids. I was also sent home with Critical Care Herbs to feed him for a few days while we discuss the options. Tuesday cost $50, today cost $256.92.
                                      The procedure is an estimated $1,263.79

                                      So I don’t think this is a regular thing done every 4-6 months.

                                      This vet also said that he is elderly and if he does fine after the procedure, he could very well be there in another few months for a completely different reason.
                                      why am I getting such mixed information?


                                    • Sarita
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                                        Wow – did you ask him exactly what the procedure is that he plans to do? That cost for a dental filing is outrageous. What are they saying is included in that costly amount.


                                      • madmitz
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                                          Iso Mask Induction with Tranquilizer Med – 101.00
                                          Isoflurane/10Min Inc Monitor’g – 164.40
                                          Fluids Intraop.Intravenous – 83.50
                                          Teeth – Molar Equilibration */10Min – 189.00
                                          Surgical Pack – Dental Exotic – 69.20
                                          Pain Management Injection – 27.10
                                          Small Mammal Skull Dental Rads – 5 Views – 180.00 (optional)
                                          Hospitalization & Ward Care Per Day – 74.30
                                          Medication-Take Home – 70.00
                                          -Complimentary Nail Trim – 0.00
                                          -Lots Of Tender Loving Care – 0.00
                                          Wellness 2 IDX – 128.00
                                          Blood Collection/Handling – 31.90

                                          Tax – 145.39

                                          Total = 1,263.79


                                        • madmitz
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                                            That is what the Treatment Plan says. This is to only file/cut down the teeth and possibly extraction. He is on morphine right now and eating and drinking on his own. I need to give him morphine twice a day before I feed him. I have been syringe feeding him since Tuesday because the exam seems to have irritated his mouth.


                                          • AnnaW
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                                              Good lord, that’s expensive! Poor little mite, sending love to both you and him x


                                            • Sarita
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                                                That is crazy! I would find another vet because my dental trims do not cost this much and they are still on the high end.


                                              • madmitz
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                                                  To be honest, that is the norm here. I have had many cats under for dental and it ranges from $400-1,300 depending on what they need. The cheapest I’ve spent for my cat was roughly $380. The most for a cat I did was just under $1,000
                                                  When my female rabbit was spayed, I had 5 or 6 invoices that add up into the thousands for her.

                                                  I can do this procedure but I can’t lie and say it won’t hurt me financially, but i will only do so if its best for him. The vets can’t tell an owner what they should do. They give you the options and thats it. I am confused and don’t know what to do. All of this on top of my family looking at me like I’m crazy for considering such a payment.


                                                • madmitz
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                                                    I also can’t cart him from vet to vet with each exam ranging in price while his health declines he whimpered today during this exam. It’s to much to take doing this to him repeatedly


                                                  • madmitz
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                                                      Turns out Ontario, Canada has high vet bills. Canadians are crossing the boarder for pet care and I can see why


                                                    • Beka27
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                                                        This is really only a decision you can make. Did you discuss the cost with the vet and ask if you have it done the first time at that cost, if it ends up being a recurring issue, if you can get discounted rates (like a percentage off) for future visits?

                                                        I absolutely encourage seeking appropriate vet care when needed, but I also feel that you need to recognize your limitations and make a decision regarding the long-term prognosis and what is realistic for you to do for the duration of the bunny’s life. If this is something that you just cannot do (especially considering it is NOT LIKELY to be a one-time expense), I personally would not fault you for making the difficult decision to not move on with the surgery. I don’t like to recommend euthanasia, but in some extreme cases it may be the better option for everyone.


                                                      • madmitz
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                                                          I understand it is only a decision I can make but the Vets should give there educated opinion. I know they cannot predict the future but they have experience, knowledge and common sense to back up their statements. Then after getting their opinion I should and can make my choice. The problem is I have to hound them and ask continuously what they believe is the best for the pet. It’s hard to make a choice like that on my own when I don’t know from experience, I haven’t learned in school and on top of that, my judgements is clouded by love, guilt and fear.
                                                          He has stopped eating almost completely now and is fighting my feedings. I’m hopeless at this point. This cost will be this cost every time it is preformed. No discounts here and even if there was, I doubt it would be significantly less then the amount now.


                                                        • Beka27
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                                                            I understand your concerns. You want to make an informed decision but you’re not being adequately “informed”. It is highly likely this will recur. Unfortunately, from your description, it is down to the wire.

                                                            You really have two options: 1) surgery and see if it recurs/how long before it recurs, 2) don’t proceed with surgery and help him pass. He can’t go on like this much longer either way.

                                                            If you can prolong his life for 4-6 months and enjoy that time with him, is it worth it to you? If this needs to be done again in 6 months, would you do it again?

                                                            The vets can’t really give you an answer regarding the frequency b/c they don’t know. It varies from rabbit to rabbit. Some rabbits need dental surgery once. Some may require it as often as every couple months. Their “vagueness” may not be b/c they don’t want to answer your questions, but rather b/c they don’t want to promise an outcome they can’t guarantee.

                                                            If I were in this position, I would be basing my decision on the “average” length between treatments and expect to repeat treatment in about 6 months… And approximately every 6 months thereafter.


                                                          • Beka27
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                                                              Are you open to doing the surgery and seeing how it goes, with no guarantee? He might surprise you too… I hope that would be the case.


                                                            • njbunny
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                                                                Wow this is a really tough one. On one hand you want to run and do the surgery because he is struggling but on the other it is very expensive and may be reoccurring. Throw in the fact that he may be very old and may not have much time left with you anyway.

                                                                I understand why the vets are being guarded but even still a good vet will make a recommendation based on their professional experience. What we usually do here with our pets is give them one chance and set a dollar amount limit. I know that sounds horrible to say but we don’t have a ton of extra money. We have 3 kids and a large mortgage that we need to make our first priority. Whatever we can we will pay but we do set a limit for each pet. So for us when something like this comes up we would say, ok, we are going to give them the one chance but will only pay up to $xx.xx so if they end up needing more care then that is our limit. The reason we give that one chance is because medicine is not always 100% and another year may be worth it to you in the end. To me I always want to at least give it the one try if we can manage it because having the peace of mind that I did what I could is really important. I never want to have the “what if” hanging over my head. Also, we gave my dog her one chance and that time it really paid off. If I had listened to the specialists she would be long gone now (was diagnosed with cancer at 6 mo, prognosis was very poor – 1 year survival WITH surgery/radiation. $7,000.00 later she got 5 more years and is still going). The money spent was well worth it even if we had only gotten 1 year. It was the peace of mind that we did everything we could.

                                                                You have to do what is reasonable for you. Put your feelings aside for a minute and think about what you can spend taking into consideration that you may be in this very spot again in a year (or less). The most important thing is that you gave that bunny many great years that he may not have had otherwise. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to let go for all parties involved. Don’t feel bad or guilty if you need to make that decision.


                                                              • madmitz
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                                                                  Thank you AnnaW for the kind words. I appreciate them very much during this time and my little bun could use all the love and hope he can get right now.
                                                                  Becka27 and njbunny, you have helped more then you know. You’ve both giving me a lot to think about and consider. Im so thankful for the support.
                                                                  I have sent him to a follow up, blood work and weigh in today. If everything checks out in his favor, the procedure will be Wednesday.
                                                                  I am waiting on his weight because he was 3 lb 6 ounces on tuesday and 3 lb 3 ounces on friday. I really hope he hasn’t continued down.

                                                                  Please hope for him. I will post when I know more. Thank you again everyone.


                                                                • madmitz
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                                                                    Sarita, thank you for the eye opener that 8 is not a crazy old age bunny. I feel a weight lifted that all hope it not lost when they are at that age as I have a female very close behind him.


                                                                  • madmitz
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                                                                      Just heard that the vet will only do blood work and weight in, she will not talk about him at all unless I pay $100 first. Wow


                                                                    • madmitz
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                                                                        She spoke about him after being told we would pay and she did not charge us. His weight has not changed and blood work went smoothly. The test results will be in tomorrow.

                                                                        At the vets he is Coco, but at home everyone calls him Baby bunny. 


                                                                      • Beka27
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                                                                          Thank you for the update. You’ve been in my thoughts since I posted on the thread last. We worry about our members and their bunnies, especially in cases like this where there there isn’t an easy answer.

                                                                          To be honest, I am incredibly annoyed by your vet. Maybe it’s different there, but in my experience the pre-op consults are generally worked into the cost of everything. You’re paying for the preliminary diagnostics, but the vet wasn’t even going to discuss the results with you? I’m just speechless. It’s not even about cost at this point, just some level of respect and professionalism when dealing with clients. I understand there are bills to pay to keep a vet office up and running, but I find this ridiculous. Again, I can only speak for my experience (maybe this is the norm in other areas), but I would be looking for another vet… Even a more expensive vet who can act like a decent human being. /rant

                                                                          Please continue to update… Successful surgery Vibes to your bun..


                                                                        • Minhua Xu
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                                                                            Prada is close to 9 yr old. He needs his back teeth trimmed every six weeks. My vet uses iso gas. She says generally the gas is very safe, so she does not require a blood test.
                                                                            We did a dental x-ray at the fist time to rule out any serious issues, then we just do regular trimming. I drop him off, and pick him up after he is done. He never had a problem with the procedure.

                                                                            He did not show any discomfort before we started the regular teeth trimming, but he has been putting on weight slowly after we started. I guess the teeth did bother him. So bad he can not talk.


                                                                          • Minhua Xu
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                                                                              over $1000 is crazy!! I pay less than $150 if it is just trimming, a little more if we have no metacam left at home.


                                                                            • madmitz
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                                                                                I’m at work and have a quick question. The blood test came back with 2 problems. One being his kidneys but the vet said it could be do to dehydration and wants to get a urine sample from him. I’m freaking out because she wants him in tonight and she’s using a needle that goes into his stomach to his bladder. He will not be sedated for this. Has anyone had this experience before? I’m scared


                                                                              • madmitz
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                                                                                  His appointment for this is in an hour :/ I’m so nervous that I called a different vet to ask if this was ok. She couldn’t give me an answer having never seen him before. Ugh, I’m so sad for him I keep questioning my decision to put him through all these tests, pokes and prods. I hope this isn’t all a mistake :'(


                                                                                • LittlePuffyTail
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                                                                                    How did he make out?


                                                                                  • madmitz
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                                                                                      Im not sure yet I didnt go for this appointment as im told I get to upset. It is probably best just incase he can feel my being tense


                                                                                    • madmitz
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                                                                                        It went ok. He peed before going to the vet and unfortunately they couldn’t find any in his bladder. They did a second blood test which came back good but without the urine sample, they wont move forward. I’m so frustrated that this is dragging on so long. Im so sad for him to be going through all of this while hes feeling unwell. They said I need to collect a sample or I can leave him at the vet office for the day (which I will not do so I can avoid stressing him out even more so) but I want this sample asap! Any advice on how to go about this so I can get a sample to them tomorrow?

                                                                                        Prada, 9 years old! Thats awesome. One vet told me that the dwarfs do not live as long as the larger rabbits, is this true or? Coco is a dwarf and my female (in the my profile pic) is a Rex I believe.

                                                                                        LittlePuffyTail, thank you for asking about him. I hope things get better for him soon.


                                                                                      • njbunny
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                                                                                          I have never seen a cystocentesis on a rabbit as our practice does not see a lot of rabbits but I have seen it done many times on cats (the dogs usually will provide a free catch sample if we wait long enough). We scruff them and lay them on their side and the doctor located the bladder by feel/experience and uses a needle to go through the bladder wall and draw out a sterile sample. With the cats they really don’t mind it at all. I really think the pain is very low as they act no different to getting a routine vaccine. It definitely hurts less for them than pulling blood so I would say it really is not that bad. Obviously you want to have a good vet doing it as they can hit other organs if they are not knowledgeable. My vet at times has not been able to feel the bladder but knows its location with her eyes shut and always hits it. As far as collecting a sample it has to be as clean as possible. I am really surprised they did not give you any tips or even a container to bring it back in! You need at least a few drops of urine in order to run the urinalysis. If they are spinning it then you need more, probably like 1/4 of a tsp or more.

                                                                                          Ideally you would have him in a wire bottom cage with a clean pan to catch the urine but I know that is not always possible. Really you want to keep the sample as clean as possible. If you want to get really cleaver you could put a cookie cooling rack covered with something to keep him and the poos from falling into the pan (I would use a baking pan that the rack would fit into nicely). Options to cover the cooling rack could be cleaned window screen, cutting up a piece of clean sheet to fit the pan size and poking little hole all over it, using tin foil or parchment paper with holes if his nails don’t rip it first. If the poops get in it is not the end of the world but the cleaner the better as to not skew the results. You have 2 options that I can think of.

                                                                                          1. clean the litter box well . You need everything as clean as possible. Don’t put any litter in it and put the box in it’s normal spot but make sure the hay is far enough away that it won’t fall into the box. If you bun is a hay dragger you may need to without the hay just until you can get a sample. Worst case offer hay for a bit then take it away and switch the pans. Keep the bun caged and keep checking the box regularly to make sure he has not done any poos. If so, remove and clean the box as to not contaminate the sample. Once he goes pee take the box and pour the urine into a CLEAN Tupperware container. FYI – For the cats we recommend a product called nosorb (all the vets around here carry it for purchase) that acts like a litter but will not absorb liquids so if you line the litter box with it, it would keep your buns feet and poops above the litter and the urine below which you could then “strain” unto a container. Not sure if it is safe for rabbits though (would your bun try to eat it? I have no idea what the granules are actually made of).

                                                                                           

                                                                                          2. If your bun wont go into the litter box because it is empty and slippery then you can try to keep him in a small confined area with a CLEAN pan placed in a box so really he cannot go anywhere but in the pan/litter box. You will need to have a separate container to hold hay. Keep checking on him regularly to make sure he has not pooped and as soon as he has peed you can take him out, tip the urine into a clean Tupperware container.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          Refrigerate until you can get it to the vet (take as soon as possible).


                                                                                        • Minhua Xu
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                                                                                            Prada is about 5.5 pounds. I do not know about dwarf. My other bunny is a flemish giant mix. I was told those giant ones do not live that long.


                                                                                          • madmitz
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                                                                                              Thank you njbhnny! I am reluctant to use wire bottom anything even for a short while because he is very sensitive to it. When I adopted him, his hocks were nothing but scabs and bone. It was believed that before he was dumped at the shelter, he spent his life up til then on wire. It took over a year for him to have somewhat normal hocks again. Your ideal of a small clean surface made perfect sense for the tile in my home. I cleaned an area and he is only on that for today. My amazing fiancé has been leaving work to feed and check on him when I am not home and will be doing so today to check for a sample. The vet said he could stay there for the day but it would cost me $200 for the stay. Not to mention the 1 hour commute to this vet each time he has to go.
                                                                                              I tried to upload a picture of him lastnight but it doesn’t want to work from phone or tablet

                                                                                              Prada, I’m not sure what is true or false anymore lol seems like every vet has a different opinion on rabbits (at least in my case)
                                                                                              first vet said she hasn’t ever seen a dwarf live past 5 years (odd) and that large rabbits live longer then small. She also said Coco would most
                                                                                              likely not make it through this procedure.

                                                                                              second vet said there is a 10% chance of fatality in a healthy rabbit under anesthetic and 20% for an older, unhealthy one.

                                                                                              Pretty confusing.


                                                                                            • Minhua Xu
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                                                                                                no way!…house rabbit society says it’s only 0.1%
                                                                                                “The House Rabbit Society has had over 1000 rabbits spayed or neutered with approximately .1% mortality due to anesthesia.”
                                                                                                source: http://rabbit.org/faq-spaying-and-neutering/


                                                                                              • Sarita
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                                                                                                  My vet uses isofluorane gas for dental trims.

                                                                                                  I really question your vet’s experience with rabbits. Sounds pretty limited and their stats on mortality for rabbits sounds very dated.

                                                                                                  I have a midsize rabbit that is 12 years old and a Netherland (who is 1.5 pounds and has no lower molars on his left side who has had numerous dental procedures by the way – every other month for the past 2 years) who is approximately 5 years old (the vet thinks – no way to know since he was dumped off at a guinea pig rescue). And I have had numerous senior rabbits have dental trims under anesthesia – isofluourane gas – without incidence. Obviously you have to be sure that they can go under any kind of anesthesia and you don’t yet have an answer to his kidney problems…that of course makes it difficult to know if he is a good candidate for anesthesia.


                                                                                                • madmitz
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                                                                                                    What a difference in %…I too am shocked at my vets lack of knowledge :/ this is a referral vet who actually tends to a zoo. But yes, it all depends on this sample. I am hoping every min that I get a call saying he left us what we’ve been waiting for.

                                                                                                    Sarita, I think this vet is also using the same gas but she said they use an injection too. I sure hope an injection is just as safe as the gas. Also, im assuming he will have a tooth removed since there is no tooth on the bottom to make contact with it anyways. That tooth is not useful if it cant grind another tooth, correct? Sorry for all the questions. I’ve only had my bunnies go through their spay and neuter. Coco was sedated for his hocks also but that was 7 years ago. 


                                                                                                  • Sarita
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                                                                                                      It’s probably a pain medication that is injected.

                                                                                                      So your rabbit has lost an upper molar is that correct? That could be the reason for the molar spurs. Removing the upper tooth won’t necessarily help – what is happening is a few things with a senior rabbit – one thing is that as they age they lose some bone density and that can cause the teeth to shift which means they don’t wear evenly.


                                                                                                    • Sarita
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                                                                                                        Another possibility that I’ve had with another senior in the past was that she had infected gums – well really root tooth abscesses – this could only be seen with a head x-ray though. We treated with pen-g shots.


                                                                                                      • madmitz
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                                                                                                          The treatment plan says it is a tranquilizer :/ I will ask her about it if this proceeds. He’s been eating and drinking but i dont think its enough. still no pee spot. I hope hes not holding it in because he’s not aloud to go in his usual spot. Either way I dont think things are going well


                                                                                                        • madmitz
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                                                                                                            And I have a sample I’ve never been so happy for something to pee on my floor


                                                                                                          • madmitz
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                                                                                                              Sarita,

                                                                                                              yes he has lost an upper molar. I will be getting the x rays done to rule out any underlining issues. Better safe then sorry later on. It may not help having the lower tooth removed but it could possibly help depending on whats causing this to happen? It was just a thought

                                                                                                              thank you for all the information. It has been so helpful. I hope the testing goes well tomorrow morning.


                                                                                                            • Beka27
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                                                                                                                madmitz… any update on your bun?


                                                                                                              • madmitz
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                                                                                                                  Hi everyone. I know it has been quite some time. I wish I had a better update the vet was very “undecided” about his test results and kept wanting to re-test each one, some test 3 times over. He was declining in that time and becoming weak. To weak for such a procedure. He is still with me, on my shelf in a cedar urn, his roommate misses his company as do I

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                                                                                                              Forum DIET & CARE 8 yr old mixed dwarf w/ bad teeth