Alternate Neuter/Spay Procedures

[Troller]

Hello, as asked I’m starting a new thread on the topic.

This isn’t about my bunnies or any specific bunny, just a topic I read about elsewhere and am curious to what other people think on the matter. Now in a site I visit All Experts has a very knowledgable vet named Dana Krempels who mentions a procedure on a doe where its still a hysterectomy but doesn’t remove the ovaries. This removes the chance of breeding, limits highly the chance of cancer and keeps the hormonal nature of the doe somewhat intact and I would figure a bit closer to natural.

I mean’t to ask a question there but she appears to be on vacation. Could a buck essentially get a vasectomy as well, eliminating breeding but keeping their hormonal nature intact?

Now I know a lot of the reason we fix our animals besides for eliminating breeding is to eliminate the hormonal behavior, but for me I’m not sure Its such a concern, plus I’m more accepting of such behavior as long as its not detrimental to health and hopefully not too destructive. My Conan for instance was nearly a year old and really well behaved except he circled us and honked. We didn’t mind it. After his neuter, he’s still a good boy but he’s more timid then he used to be and of course now doesn’t circle or honk. I’m not sure how much more hormonal my doe Xena would have gotten since I had her fixed young so I can’t say much about her but I wonder if she’d be more of a terror then she is now.

How would this effect keeping multiple rabbits as pets? Lets say you could eliminate the baby making aspect of a buck and doe, would bonding a male/female become that much harder or would it be a little easier due to sexual interest? Of course having rabbits go at it every so often would probably be the kind of hormonal behavior most would want to get rid of, but lets say maybe some can handle that. Will it always be spraying and humping or could it eventually balance out with age. What would the quality of rabbits lives be and their keepers?

To me, and i know I’m alone in my circles, but its never sat comfortably just fixing an animal. I understand and agree with the general reasons, but I think sometimes we’ve just come to accept a solution and since it works never look for better. First we cause a physical mutilation, and then a behavioral one. What if we could just end it at one? Is it done the general way because its cost effective?

Its a subject I find interesting so if anyone else does to I’d like to hear views on the matter.

[bpash89]

It would be nice to read the article you are talking about so we could all have more information on the subject since i’ve never heard of this alternate practice before.

Going off of my rather limited knowledge I would think that it would make bonding difficult or even impossible though. Even if they can’t breed, if both animals are still hormonal then they would fight a lot more than traditionally fixed rabbits. I would also think there is a serious danger of false pregnancies with female bunnies if she’s still still hormonal and being mounted by a hormone-crazed buck on a regular basis. Just because she physically can’t have babies anymore doesn’t mean her mind or her hormones got the memo. That is a lot of added stress which is really hard on the bunny. Also, how would this alternate procedure affect the life expectancy of bunnies? Spayed and neutered bunnies generally live longer so would this procedure change that for better or worse?

It would also make housing them indoors more difficult since litter training would never really take off, they would be more territorial and agressive and unlikely to really bond with humans on the same level.

I have absolutely no regrets about getting my little girl spayed. Mostly for her health but also because of her behavioral changes. She’s still the same bunny I brought home, but she’s much easier to live with and she seems much happier now — more calm, less agressive, more outgoing and loving. While there will always be dangers with such procedures, I think most of us can agree that the pros outweigh the cons.

[jerseygirl]

Would you be able to share the link to the Answer D. Krempels gave?

I was aware of that spay procedure but was under impression this still put a Doe at risk of cancer. I’m interested to read her views on this.

Edit: I’m mistaken. I was thinking of the procedure that removed ovaries only.

[Troller]

Problems is it wasn’t an article, at least none I saw yet. The vet mentions it in answers to many queries asking about fixing. Also another person, a vet student mentioned in another forum a zinc neuter, a less invasive procedure where it also makes a male dog unable to procreate but preserves some measure of testosterone.

The notion isn’t just to discuss bonded pairs, but to talk about it period. I only decided to get a second rabbit and to bond them because my wife felt fixing is something done on animals, so we neutered the buck and afterwards I felt why not get him company. At nearly a year old Conan never displayed any real bad habits and his litter habbit was excellent. But we fixed him because that’s what responsible pet owners do. But on the other side of the aisle I’ve read where fixing any animal diminishes the personality of an animal to an echo of what it once was, that’s why most animals all maintain a level of docility.

Now I’m not advocating not fixing animals, but the practice of fixing is just accepted and its always the same way. Medically speaking when a person has an issue the doctor lists options (good and bad) and if your still undecided you go for a second opinion. Even with pets a medical issue is discussed with options.Butif unwanted breeding or hormonal behavior comes up its fix and forget. The only option is don’t and deal with the behavior. In medicine we always strive to better circumstances, I just wonder if there is a better way for our animals in this is all or if not better an equal alternative.

Plus how much of the traditional truly bad behavior is based on adolescents? Mammals in general are very hormonal and across the board when young but mellow out with age. It wouldn’t be for every pet owner to deal with an animal experiencing their “teenage years” but some might be all right with it if they knew that would all calm down with time. I’m just musing on the matter is all.

[Sarita]

I’ve seen this post but I want to point out that Dana Krempels is NOT A VET and does not claim to be one….just want to make sure everyone on this board knows that.

[Monkeybun]

I would say it isn’t just a teenage bunny thing. Volunteering with rabbits in a shelter has shown me that adult rabbits, even ones 8-9 years old, will still show aggressive, territorial behaviours and marking due to hormones. So they don’t really settle down that much with that aspect, unless you help them.

i would also like to point out that humans get neutered and spayed too, and you sure as heck better not tell my mom she’s docile due to it, she’ll prove otherwise

[Tessie]

I think I’ve found a mention of what you’re referring to:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2011/12/habit-ears.htm

[MoveDiagonally]

As Sarita said, Dana Krempels is a biologist (PhD) not a vet. I’ve seen the idea of leaving ovaries in two Q&A’s with her. 

They can be found here:

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2011/12/habit-ears.htm

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/201…nd-lop.htm

 

This is something Dr. Krempels is experiementing with on her rabbits and researching. When she is satisfied with her research and has come to some conclusions about it she will likely publish about it (as most scientists seem to). It’s an interesting idea for sure.  

Troller: 

Now I’m not advocating not fixing animals, but the practice of fixing is just accepted and its always the same way. Medically speaking when a person has an issue the doctor lists options (good and bad) and if your still undecided you go for a second opinion. Even with pets a medical issue is discussed with options.Butif unwanted breeding or hormonal behavior comes up its fix and forget. The only option is don’t and deal with the behavior. In medicine we always strive to better circumstances, I just wonder if there is a better way for our animals in this is all or if not better an equal alternative. 

I think the answer is that people like Dr Krempels are not accepting it as the only way and are looking into it. The reason I imagine it’s not commonly recommended is because it’s not yet commonly accepted. 

Troller:

Plus how much of the traditional truly bad behavior is based on adolescents? Mammals in general are very hormonal and across the board when young but mellow out with age. It wouldn’t be for every pet owner to deal with an animal experiencing their “teenage years” but some might be all right with it if they knew that would all calm down with time. I’m just musing on the matter is all.

People that work in rescue can tell you older rabbits can still be full of raging sex hormones. There would be no guarantee they would calm down but if an alternative did become widely accepted people could choose to wait and see before they make a decision. On bonding, I don’t think sterile rabbits with sex hormones would be any easier to bond than intact rabbits. I would imagine they would constantly be trying to mate and going through false pregnancies but I’ve never tried to bond an intact male to an intact female. 

Troller:

But on the other side of the aisle I’ve read where fixing any animal diminishes the personality of an animal to an echo of what it once was, that’s why most animals all maintain a level of docility. 

I don’t think any of my pets are echoes of what they once were. I have 10 animals in my house and they are all spayed/neutered. None of my animals had a change to their personalities but I don’t consider humping, honking, going through heat, and other related behaviors as part of their personality. As for maintaining a level of docility… I imagine many would argue that their spayed/neutered rabbits aren’t that docile. 

But in seriousness, isn’t that kind of something that comes along with domestication? 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication#Animals

 

I understand the desire for an alternative expecially for people with mild mannered rabbits. I’m not opposed to it at all but I do think it would be a viable option for a minority of rabbits/people. Sex hormone amplified behaviors contribute to a lot of people abandoning or surrendering rabbits. 

[Elrohwen]

Personally, I’m in favor of using the least invasive sterilization procedures possible. Especially for dogs, where there is some research that those hormones are necessary for growth, and later for overall health, I think these options are becoming more prevalent. I live with an intact dog and he’s honestly no different behaviorally from neutered dogs and I don’t find him difficult to live with at all. If I did want to sterilize him, I would be happy with a procedure that didn’t eliminate the helpful hormones he has. Similarly for females, I would be happy to eliminate the dog going into heat and the mess that comes with it, while allowing her to retain the reproductive hormones.

For rabbits, I’m not so sure, mostly because of the behavioral aspect. Un-fixed rabbits can be hard to live with, as males tend to be stinky and spray, and females tend to be territorial and mean, not to mention the litter training aspect. Bonding un-fixed rabbits often doesn’t work well. I imagine keeping the hormones would cause all of these things to continue, even if the rabbits couldn’t reproduce. So I like the idea of it, but I’m not sure it would be practical for rabbits as house pets. I would be happy to be proven wrong though!

[Beka27]

It is certainly an interesting subject! I don’t have anything to add b/c anything i said would simply be a repeat of what has been said already.

[Troller]

Thank you very much for all the info, and sorry i just assumed since there were so many other Vets on that site that she herself was one.

Regardless information from more experienced sources was quite interesteding to read through and I’m always up for learning more. It’s a bit personal to me I guess because in my estimation Conan’s personality did change a bit. More skittish and less bold then he used to be. Its never a bad thing to investigate alternative’s to procedures such as these.

[Beka27]

No worries! It is a bit confusing b/c she is on that site, and she has a doctorate… she’s just not a vet. Have you seen her own site? I reference it all the time. If you haven’t, this is link: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/hare.html

In the past 20 years or so, there has been a huge movement towards improving rabbit health. We’re fortunate to have so many people working towards this! Medicine is always changing and evolving. What is suggested now may or may not be suggested in ten years…

[jerseygirl]

Posted By Troller on 09/19/2013 05:
It’s a bit personal to me I guess because in my estimation Conan’s personality did change a bit. More skittish and less bold then he used to be.

I’m not saying this is true for Conan but sometimes the change is just due age. Some people report their rabbit seems more lazy, to sleep more etc. Often though, they can settle energy wise at 1-2yrs of age – regardless of neuter.
My rabbit TimTim has been neutered 1 1/2 years. I notice in last 6 months or so he has some triggers that make him skittish. Yet the majority of the time he is very comfortable and self-assured in his own zone.
You may see Conan’s confidence reappear yet.

[Bam]

My bunny Bam was lazy before his neuter. He’s just as lazy now but he doesn’t circle the dog or pee and poop in the sofa. He was always docile and sweet. But as you’re saying, Troller, it’s sad to have to remove part of an animal´s body just to make it a nicer pet. I hesitated for a long time before I had my first bunny neutered, but the situation became intolerable. A vasectomy wouldn’t have been enough since he was in love with my dog and wouldn’t leave her alone.

My second bunny I had neutered right away in the hope of bonding him and my first rabbit. This hasn’t worked out so I could’ve left well enough alone I guess. Perhaps then that rabbit would’ve fell in love with my unusually lovely dog and/or peed and pooped in the sofa and bed, but I can’t know that.

(I have a double-netted gate dividing my apt so the bunnies can see each other and take part in my daily life, but they can’t be togeather. They often lie down on either side of the gate though so I guess they feel they have some kind of rabbit-companionship. I often find them lying there when I come home.)

I don’t think conventional spay/neuter is primarily a matter of cost. The reasons I had for neutering were hormonal behaviour, not to prevent procreation.

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