Odd Behavorial Issues.

[tanlover14]

Behavorial issue – as soon as y’all see that I’m sure it just screams it’s about the Tans… LOL. 

Shocker, because it is again! 

 

This time is with Fleury.  The problem has always kind of been there I think but has gotten worse with the addition of Simba and Nora.   What happens is – when we attempt to interact (play, pet, anything really) one of the other bunnies Fleury gets upset about it.  I can’t determine if he’s upset we are messing with his “herd” or if he’s upset that he’s not getting all of the attention.  Either way, I believe it’s a jealousy issue.  But it’s beginning to get very out of hand!  

He’s nipping and getting VERY agitated every time we play with the other bunnies.  He used to nip when he was a baby and we’d hold his head down as a form of dominance and he stopped nipping for good.  But the nipping has atlas come back with this new problem.  And the head holding down isn’t helping.  Nor is any other form of telling him it hurts (the shrieking and what have you). 

 

I’ve had this continual problem with the Tans of them nipping a little too hard when they are jumping all over us.  We’ve tried basically everything with them also to no positive conclusion.  But Fleury is specifically nipping when he gets agitated about us hanging out with the other bunnies.  And I not only think it’s bad for our relationship with him but bad for him to be getting so upset about this! 

 

I am at a loss.  Sometimes these Tans just really confuse me.  Every thing I’ve googled and researched about them says they are a very unique breed and can be what some call “aggressive”, high-strung, bull-headed.  I don’t think they’re aggressive unless they’re really upset about something.  They DO love to play rough though. LOL.  They are very different from any other rabbit I’ve ever come into contact with and working at two rescues now has allowed me to interact with a great variety. 

 

If they play rough, then they play rough.  I know they get upset very easily about things.  Which I’m okay with.  But when I believe their behavior is affecting their relationship with us and their overall well-being of being happy, then I worry.   I’m really REALLY at a loss.

 

Any ideas, thoughts, or opinions would be very greatly appreciated. 

[Sarita]

Does he just run up to you and nip? Or is it when you are trying to interact with him?

[tanlover14]

Both really.

When we are playing with anyone besides him he was come up and push his way in to be the center of attention. If you don’t acknowledge him, he nips you. If you do acknowledge him, he nips you. He body language and behavior is a very agitated or aggressive stance. He will sometimes box his paws and growl, other times he nips your arm when you try and pet him. When I ignore him the other day though then he bit me anyways.

After awhile of you trying to interact with him, he’ll get very flustered. But then when you ignore him, he’s constantly pushing himself into you and another bunnies interaction also.

I’m not quite sure to make of it.

[Sarita]

How old are they now? It’s possible it’s just age related…

I’ve had one super aggressive rabbit before, Pepe and the only thing that kind of cured his behavior was lots of space. I had to let him roam freely although he still bit me but he was happier.

[Julezypie]

I don’t have a lot of experience here, but maybe you can try bitter apple or fooey if nothing else works?

[tanlover14]

They will all be a year and a half in August.

I do need to make one other point. He doesn’t seem to be aggressive with me UNTIL I give one of the others attention. When I first go in and say hi to him, he’s fine. It’s when I begin interacting with the others that he gets all upset.

It’s where the problem comes from. If he did it all the time I’d think he wanted his space. But the fact that he’s all happy and plays with me until I begin interacting with the others…

[Jessie1990]

 I hope his behavior issues resolve. I am fascinated by the different personalities of all of the rabbits lol. They are all so different. Your Tans sound very much like Ashe I read an article on the House Rabbit Society page that talked about how, often, “aggressive” rabbits are just misunderstood inteligent rabbits. I believe this is true. They get frustrated that we can’t understand what they are trying to say and they become desperate. (Maybe… this is just an idea). I’m not saying other rabbits are not intelligent, I think they all are, but some just get frustrated.

[tanlover14]

I can completely agree, Ashe.

When I did clicker training with Fleury for his bad litter habits he was so fascinated by it. And he was using his litter box perfectly within a week! He really shocked me!

I want to continue with the clicker training for them but they get so upset when I separate them from the others that they just get angry and dig and nip everything so it’s hard! And if I try it with the others then I have five rabbits all attacking me for treats.

[tanlover14]

* Jessie – totally just called you your rabbits name! LOL. I have a bad habit of recognizing people on BB by their rabbits name. Sorry!!

[Jessie1990]

Lol it’s fine I did clicker training for a little while but my clicker is really loud and I’m not supposed to have pets so now I just practice the tricks I taught her using the motions without the clicker… she has a bad habit of pulling my hand to her mouth with her front feet now. Not sure why she started that, but I feel like it might have something to do with the clicker being gone

[Roberta]

I suppose Fleury is finding it very confusing with the change of pecking order. First Sidney is usurped by Simba taking a matriarchal group to patriarchal and now the power has shifted again with Nora taking over as queen. All this time Fleury is shifting down the chain of command. How is he with Nora and has his behavior changed toward Simba? Maybe he is focused on you as the recognizable warren leader and despite the changes you have remained in charge.

[Sarita]

It most likely is about the group dynamic as Roberta suggested rather than the individual dynamic. A pecking order situation – there has to be a top rabbit.

[jerseygirl]

House Rabbit Society page that talked about how, often, “aggressive” rabbits are just misunderstood inteligent rabbits. I believe this is true.

I agree also. They’re often the ones with the most perplexing behaviour problems.
Same in other animals too and in children.

TL, while reading I was wondering if it was Fleury that you used clicker training with before. I think would benefit him (all 3 tans actually) if you can find a way to do this again. Not so much to overcome this problem but to give them something to use up their energy and engage mentally.
I know space is probably an issue but would you be able to set up an agility type course? One you can pack away when not in use?

Because they are so different, is there a better way to play with them? More structured. If they can get out that excess energy hopefully then they’ll be more placid at other times for the more usual sort of play style.

I wonder if it is that when he becomes agitated, it just has to run its course – the end being biting action. Like he can’t just reason and redirect that energy at that moment into a more desired behaviour but that energy has to come out. So he bites, even when you’ve given him something that would appease him (attention). Does that make sense?

I know rabbits can certainly look like they have jealousy. Believe me! Lol But I view it now as some sort of insecurity at the heart of it rather then jealousy. I think Bam responded to someone on the forums about it being more about “protecting the assets”. I believe it was to do with dogs…but I remember thinking how much sense that made! At the core of it, so much if what’s behind animals behaviour (especially rabbits) is about survival and fear. So the human, the warren leader or pack leader etc becomes important to each members well being. And some will have a high drive to stay in their leaders favour.

I think it’s natural for him to be feeling insecure currently with the changes happening with bonding as Roberta has said. It’s an adjustment period for everyone.

Did he calm for a time after the bond with Simba was complete?

Sorry I haven’t given much constructive advice. It’s so interesting to try work out the “why” behind their actions but the real challenge is trying to work out how to alter those actions. I have a lot of challenges with Jersey and I know it’s hard to try help them out of some patterns. I know it’s frustrating how much it effects your relationship with them.

[jerseygirl]

I want to continue with the clicker training for them but they get so upset when I separate them from the others that they just get angry and dig and nip everything so it’s hard!

They one separated out to do clicker work with becomes like this? Or the rest of group does?

[tanlover14]

No, Jersey. You are helping a lot. As well as is everyone else. I am looking to understand the issue as well as figure out a solution so the fact that you, Roberta, and Sarita are describing this as a behavior brought on by more rabbits and the changing hierarchy is making a lot of sense to me. And is extremely interesting to say the least.

I will start with Roberta’s question first – at first he would challenge Nora when she would mount Simba. Then as they were left together, he stopped. He has begun challenging Simba when he confronts Nora when she mounts him. When someone tries mounting someone, all the bunnies get on high alert. Sometimes they react, sometimes they don’t. Despite the challenging and what not, Fleury has been grooming Nora from the first day. AND has continued to groom Simba also. All my buns groom each other like crazy. He cuddles and flops with both of them as well as everyone else.

The problem seems to be when one of us (my boyfriend or I) go in. Sometimes it creates some lunging and aggression between all the rabbits also. They will sometimes pick on Nora or Simba. We take Simba and Nora out once a day for “lap time” because they both love to cuddle and because of their fur they need to be brushed once a day. When we put them back, sometimes the others will lunge at them. Like in warning but they don’t actually chase or attack them. Just a lunge with ears back. We usually say “no” and they go away and stop. And then everyone cuddles up together as soon as we are gone. I can’t help noticing now that the problem seems to be my boyfriend and I. And most likely our “status” in their group. Granted, this new set up has only been since Monday that they have been technically “bonded”. They have not had any fights or bickerments. It’s just us entering their area that things get a little shifty.

I have no idea how in the world you could even begin to fix something like this though. Or how to work with Fleury through whatever is agitating him about the group or our place in the group.

Jersey – I would LOVE to work more with them on clicker training as I said. I think it would be very beneficial to the Tans for many reasons. Regarding both behavior and energy. But I simply don’t know how to bring them out one at a time feeling comfortable. For example, we tried doing a lap time type thing with them. We would bring one of them out and set them on the couch with us. The one we brought out with us would become increasingly agitated. Nipping and digging into us and everything else. He was obviously very angry. They ALL did this when out alone with us. And THEN whenever we would put one back, they would all run like heck to get away from us. So idkk. I would love to work with them more. I just don’t know how to successfully do it without them getting so stressed and upset. One time Tanger literally got so upset he wouldn’t eat anything (including treats) for two hours. How do you manage that? We did nothing but sit on the couch with him! Somewhere he’s been before also! I just don’t know…

As you all know, I love the daylights out of every single one of them. I want to have the best relationship with them as possible.

[tanlover14]

Oh Jessie – I had read your post about Ashe. I actually tried the TTouch method after I read your post with no luck! Fleury kept trying to nip me every time I would touch him. I did it to the other two Tans and they were mesmerized for like a full minute! Which is a long time for my Tans! Sidney and Tanger were both in this weird stance like “I hate you touching me… but maybe this feels good…” Haha!

[jerseygirl]

I’m so behind…I didn’t realize youve got them bonded already. That’s FANTASTIC!

Some time has to pass before they’re feeling secure in new quintet routine I reckon. ; )
Ever noticed that newly bonded rabbits can be little terrors for a a while?!

When you’ve tried these times of bringing them out individually, you’ve carried them out?

The problem seems to be when one of us (my boyfriend or I) go in. Sometimes it creates some lunging and aggression between all the rabbits also. They will sometimes pick on Nora or Simba

i see this with my pairs also. I think it’s excitement& nervous energy and can slip into aggressiveness as an outlet. It usually fizzles out.
Seeing me equals possibility of food coming in their minds even though I’m not always there for that. Hmph. There’s competition too, when there’s more then one bun.

[Sarita]

It’s true what Jersey says – it’s like humping – many times that is just stress induced. I think that your warren is still new and trying to figure out who’s the top rabbit in the warren. Probably what you see as aggression is just really stress. Most of the time it’s hard for us to see things from our rabbit’s point of view…like saying that you feel that this is bad for your relationship with him and the other rabbits…perfectly normal of course since you can only guess what they might be thinking.

Maybe step out and let them continue to strengthen their bond as a group. After all they’ve had lots of changes with Simba and with Nora and that has to have been stressful for the whole group. Perhaps every time you and your boyfriend try to interact at this point, it’s causing more stress when you start playing or interacting with them (other than feeding, cleaning, etc…you have to do that). And of course, you cannot take any of this personally which most people do, it’s not personal.

[tanlover14]

I understand what you both mean. I took him out of the pen yesterday and worked on him a little bit with some craisins and trying to teach him to turn in a circle for a Craisin. Haha! He was interested for about 5 minutes and then started trying to get away. He wasn’t biting or nipping though.

Then today when my BF went into the x pen and was hanging around with them before and after veggie time Fleury continually kept biting and lunging. I really can’t tell if it’s getting worse or if it seems like it’s getting worse because we are looking for the aggressive behaviors from him. Sigh. I’m at a loss. Even if it’s something I should just leave alone… it’s really making me feel horrible. He is such a great bun and it bothers me that he’s feeling so stressed and upset (especially if it’s from the bonding). He cuddles and hangs out with the other bunnies though. Oh… Idk.

Jersey – YES! They bonded very quickly (took a week) and Nora has been ecstatic with all the bunnies! She has been full of binkies since going in with the others.

[Jessie1990]

Sorry, I haven’t been keeping up with threads lately! I have had a lot of prepping to do for school starting in the fall. I’m glad the TTouch helps with some of the rabbits What if you try doing it with a paint brush or something long that won’t hurt if he bites? It might teach him there are no changes when he nips? I’m really not sure because Ashe’s behavior doesn’t really involve nipping anymore. She just “acts” like she will bite. She also loves being touched so it’s completely different I guess. I will keep thinking of some ideas though

[hannaroo]

Shirt term flurry may be a little stressed but long term he’ll be much happier. Look at it like when you bring them home ans they just need a few weeks to settle

[Jessie1990]

I agree with Hannaroo. Maybe he just needs some time to adjust. Honestly, I think that was the biggest factor in Ashe’s behavior change. Their routine was all out of wack with the bonding, so maybe it will take some time for him to get back on track

[tanlover14]

I’m going out to do some rabbit rounding up tonight with one of the main girls from our rescue, Rabbit Wranglers. Her and I are going to discuss some of his behaviors on the way out and see if she has any ideas. She thought maybe there’s a slight chance it’s medical because it came on so quickly – which the thought had crossed my mind but all the buns (minus Nora) will be going for their annual exams this coming Tuesday and currently I don’t see a need to rush him into the vet for an emergency appointment so I guess I’ll be waiting to see how his vet visit on Tuesday turns out also.

It’s just really depressing for me. He’s a really good boy. Sometimes my Tans really do give off an aggressive vibe to others but I understand them and their behaviors much more now than I did in the beginning – but this one still has me at a loss. Sigh. They’re my babies and I just want them all to be happy.

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