Bonding Bam and Yohio

[Bam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubN5…e=youtu.be

 

A rather long film but I’d be so grateful if you wanted to watch at least some of it and comment on it.

 

The session ended on a friendly note with Yohio sticking his head under Bams chin and remaining there.

 

I’d like to warn sensitive viewers, this is a humping-fest.

[Bam]

Today they fought. Yohio bit my hand. Good thing I wore gloves.

It was like Oh no you’re not humping me, you’re not. I separated them after two minutes or so. Yohio had fur sticking out of his mouth. He was scared.

They still hump backwards and since I can’t let that happen I have to intervene all the time. It sort of gives them no time to figure things out when they have to start all over again, all the time.

This looked so bright yesterday and today it most definitely did not.

On Wednesday I can perhaps get a friend to drive me around with them for some stress-bonding.

[MoveDiagonally]

Have you thought about doing non-car stress bonding? Using a laundry basket to “jostle” them, running a vacuum, loud noises, etc…

I was reading through old bonding threads and found this by one of the forum leaders (Petzy):
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/108762/Default.aspx
I really like the cube idea and I’m planning on trying it with my trio pairs.

And here’s some more stress bonding without a car ideas:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/124529/Default.aspx

Don’t get too discouraged by the second day being harder than the first. Bonding can be a bit of a roller coaster. I’m looking forward to hearing more as it progresses! 

[Bam]

Thank you!

I did lose my nerve, but I’ll ask a friend over this afternoon to help me with dragging a box around or st. Just feels safer to be two people. Plus I need thicker gloves. Yohio didn’t bite through but there is brusing.

Or maybe I’ll wait =/ They seem very confrontational both of them. Like two gladiators.

[Bam]

So I put the pair of them in a box today and started to drag it on the floor with the vacuum going and loud music on the computer, and they immediately attacked each other, pulling out big wads of fur, they were SO MAD. They didn’t even have time to be afraid of being in a moving box with lots of unpleasant noise around them, they were too busy hating each other.

Time to give in? Or should I separate them for a month or so and then try again?

Yohio is all stressed out now and just darts around like he’s on fire when I open the bathroom door. Bam seems ok, though. He went out into the hallway and made a big puddle outside the bathroom-door, then went back in to me and flopped under his table. None of them has any wounds.

[Bam]

Since I don’t get any comments, I’ll just keep writing because it feels better to write about it. I figured the box I put the boys in was too big – they got the chance to find a corner each and attack from there. So I got a smaller box and put bunnies in it held it up and shook it and that really confused them. This time there was no fighting. There was just confusion. I kept it up for about 5 mins.

[MoveDiagonally]

I think it’s great that the smaller box worked out for them a little better. With my trio pairs I had to do bonding sessions in a laundry basket for a while because of fights. Hopefully it will continue to work for them!

Please do keep posting even if you don’t get a lot of comments. I’ve found that keeping up my trio bonding thread has helped me a lot. It’s given me a lot of perspective on my bonding adventure and has helped me stay “on track”.

Good Luck! I hope it gets better for them. They would make such a cute little couple.

[BabyD]

Please by all means, keep writing!
I can’t make any comments about bonding, since I only have one rabbit.

But let me say that your bunny Bam is really super cute!! If I didn’t get a Dwarf, I would have gotten a Lop like Bam instead.

[Bam]

Thank you so much!

I do feel the need to write about this because I’m very insecure about the project. In Sweden even vets would strongly discourage you from even trying to bond a pair of boys. “Breeders of show-rabbits with decades of experience say it can’t be done.” Well, breeders don’t neuter their bucks, the ones that aren’t going to be bred are either sold off as pets or euthanized. Breeders breed. So I don’t know why their words should be taken as expert advice.

They would make the cutest little pair, but even if they would look ugly togeather (not much risk of that ), I think their quality of life would be greatly improved if they became friends.

[hannaroo]

Please keep posting! I’m finding it really useful as as first time bunny owner that’ll need to bond my buns next month! I’m just not commenting because unfortunately I have no useful input on the subject as I’ve never attempted it! I’ve been religiously following yours and movediagonally’ s posts to gain insight on their behaviour and tips that have worked for you. From what I’ve read two bonding s are never the same so you can never do too much research!

[Ranjen1]

Keep trying! It took me several weeks to bond my trio. I had two females and a male. The females HATED each other and it was pretty stressful. What I found to help the most was to make a pen that I put the single bun in and put that inside the others habitat so that they could smell and see each other all the time but not bite…The girls never really fell in love, but they tolerated just fine with out me having to worry about maulings..One of my females just passed and now I am boinding the left over pair with a new trio..5 rabbits!!! Three boys and two girls…very nerve wracking

[Bam]

5 rabbits! Wow! That’s an adventure!

I’ll keep trying with my two. I could put Yohio in the cage and place the cage on the coffea-table, I wouldn’t dare put the cage on the floor because I’m sure they could figure out a way to hurt each other through the grid even it’s rather fine.

Tonight Yohio was so scared when I put them in the bonding-box that he immediately peed all over Bam. At least I think he did it from fear. And when I took Yohio out after the shaking-session, Bam just sat there in the box all huddled up miserable-looking. I had to take turns comforting them with raisins and a few pellets afterwards.

Tomorrow I think it’s time for a car-ride.

This is really stressful. I feel like such an evil person, scaring my darlings like this. I’m so grateful for your comments, they really are a huge comfort.

[hannaroo]

dont give up, some bondings just take longer than others and same sex ones are usually harder as theres competition for a mate! You never know, you could suddenly turn a corner and they’ll be perfect together!

[MoveDiagonally]

Posted By bam on 06/04/2013 03:17 PM
his is really stressful. I feel like such an evil person, scaring my darlings like this. I’m so grateful for your comments, they really are a huge comfort.

During the stressing are they looking to each other for comfort? That’s the goal. 

I definitely understand how you feel! Two of mine, Dexter and Penny, react to stress a lot stronger than Monty does. So on some occasions it felt like I was just stressing them out and then Monty who was not stressed would try to start fights. -_- Bunnies. I felt bad for my shy duo. :/ 

But I love using the “bonding cube” made out of NIC. I tried it last night and it is by far my favorite stressing method / portable bonding area. 

I hope the car ride goes well! 

[Bam]

I realize the point is for them to look for comfort in each other, and I look for signs of that but I can’t really tell. Maybe the box is too small. Yohio mostly wants to jump out of the box. When I first found Bam, there was another rabbit there too, and when I put them in the dog-pen in the car to take them home, they did comfort each other, it was really evident even for a person like me with no rabbit-experience. But that other rabbit was a young, not yet sexually mature female. (I found a good home for her where she was bonded with another female rabbit). So I have seen how it’s supposed to look (even if I didn’t know that then.)

We don’t get NIC-panels in Sweden. I wish we did, they seem so practical.

[Bam]

Pictures from car-ride. No fighting. They huddled up togeather to start with, but as they grew less scared, they went apart. No fighting at all though. Bam wouldn’t eat a raisin. Y ate his. We were out for 30 mins, going on small roads, some of them paved, lots of turns. 

[Ranjen1]

Ignoring is actually a great sign!!! Seems like no one is doing anything, but in a rabbit indifference is really promising, means they are not terrified or pissed off enough to fight. And it’s ok to stress them a bit and in turn be comforted by mommy…

[Bam]

Todays pictures. They sought comfort in each other, Yoji more so than Bam, then they ignored, then more comfort needed. Bam ate his raisin. Yohio didn’t eat his. 34 mins in the car.

[Bam]

This is how it looked. The raisin wasn’t eaten.

[Bam]

Car-rides today and yesterday. Today Youio tried to bite Bam in the back as soon as I put them together in the box. I’ve found four small wounds on Bam, and two on Yohio, probably from the session when they fought. Really small wounds and healed-over with scabs, but still wounds.

After the initial attempt at biting, Yohio put his head under Bam and they were still almost the whole ride.

[Bam]

Car-ride this morning. They were scared and didn’t fight.

When Yohio’s had his playtime and is put back in the bathroom, Bam immediately takes a tour of the hallway and bedroom and drop-marks all over the place. He’s also made several small puddles right outside the bathroom-door, so I’ve put a litter-box there and it gets used. Both bunnies use the litter-box in the bedroom. I don’t think it’s time for an encounter in a neutral space yet. It’s been four weeks today since Y was neutered.

[Bam]

More car-rides. No fighting. But there are still no warm feelings. Yesterday Yohio growled at me when I was cleaning his litter-box. a little while before I’d swopped their stuffed bunnies, he probably felt invaded. He’s become a growler, he growls at me when I try to get him out from under the bed. That’s not nice. I need to spend more time with him I think. He doesn’t growl if I offer a raisin or a pellet. I think I’ll hand-feed him all of his daily pellets for a while, one by one, so he gets more accustomed to being near me.

Yesterday it was a month since his neuter.

In the evenings I let yohio have roam of the hallway, bedroom and bathroom. Bam and I and the dog is in the livingroom, the kitchen is blocked off because there are like a million cords and stuff. Lately Yohio has tried to get into the living-room. He can’t, but he wants to. I don’t know if he wants to pick a fight with Bam or if he just wants to be where the rest of the family is. I feel so sorry for him that he has to be alone. His little yellow face.

[NewBunnyOwner123]

Keep posting even with a lack of comments. That way you can go back and see that you are actually making lots of progress! Just think they were all about fighting as soon as they saw each other, then there was indifference, and then yohio sought out comfort in Bam. There will be minor set backs buts that’s just the process. You’re doing a great job! Have patience and stick with it!

I think it’s a great idea to have a little more one on one time with Yohio and you as well

[BabyD]

Yup, I agree with NBO, do keep us posted on your progress. I’m sure many of us are interested to know how things are going.

I think it will be so nice if all 3 of you are bonded to each other

[Bam]

Thanks!!
We did another session in the car today, I thought they seemed a bit more relaxed. I’ve been lying on the floor reading a book in the hallway and Yohio climbs all over me, so I think he and I are on the right path at least =)

[MoveDiagonally]

What cute pics!

It looks like you’re making progress, very exciting

[BabyD]

Oh good to hear that Y is getting close to you. Soon you won’t be needing much effort and they will come to you for some loving moments, because you are their loving parent.

[Bam]

More eventless car-rides + one encounter in a neutral place. First Yohio stuck his head under Bam’s chin. Then there was a brawl. Then backwards humping (Bam on Yohio). Then fighting. Then they went to each corners of the space, like two boxers in a ring. They lay there panting, eying each other. After a little while I ended the session, before they got the chance to start another round of fighting. Later I noticed Yohio had a small wound on his nose.

At least they let each other alone for a little while.

[LittlePuffyTail]

The brawl happened in the neutral space? How big of a space was it? It’s best to start in a small area and work up to making it bigger.

They sure look cute together!

[Bam]

It was my mother’s bathroom, not a very big space but perhaps too big. Here’s a pic of Yohio in the bathroom (this was the evening after the bonding-session, he spent the night there, making it a non-neutral space). Alone, of course. Bam was in the living-room. The room is  bigger than what is shown in the pic, this is just the shower-corner. I was hoping the tiles would make them feel insecure but they had no problems with that surface.

[Bam]

Indoors bonding-session in small box. I felt it went well! No fighting. I put the box on a chair that rocks slightly. Both rabbits tried to get out of course, Bam jumped right into my arms the way he’s done at the vet’s. But I put them back and there wasn’t any fighting. They were both trembling and at at one time Yohio ground his teeth loudly, as a bunny in pain.

[MoveDiagonally]

After you stress them do you put them together in a less stressful environment or end the session?

I love Bam’s little half up ears!

[Bam]

I’ve always ended the sessions. I vaguely remember reading something about that, that you must separate the bunnies after a session. But I don’t remember where I read it and I obviously don’t know if it’s true. Maybe I should try and let them be togeather afterwards in a smallish space on the floor?

[MoveDiagonally]

What I might do is stress them initially and then put them in a small space together. If they fight again, stress them, and try again, so on. You want to separate after the session ends for sure but I might try a stressing only when aggressive session (after the pre-session stress).

[Bam]

Great advice! I’ll try that next time, probably tomorrow morning, I feel it really is time for them to make some real progress.

Strange thing though, Yohio is the one who seems most scared during the sessions, but still it’s always Yohio who tries to seek out Bam by trying to jump over the barrier between the hallway and the the living-room when Bam is in there or by ferociously scratching on the door to the bedroom when Bam is in there.

[Bam]

Another fight today. Left them with a friend as a sitter while I wnt to the gym, when I came home Bam had climbed into the room where Yohio was and started a fight. Friend could barely separate them, they were stuck togeather. I can’t se any sores on Bam but Yohio has a long scratch on his ear. I’ve cleaned it and put antibact. ointment on it. He’s sitting in my lap as I’m writing, there’s a cloud around him of loose fur from stress-shedding.

This is kind of a set-back =/

 

Yohio has a sore on his left front paw as well. And he’s scared. If anyone thinks I should stop this experiment now, please say so. Otherwise I’ll go on with the stress-bonding, although probably not today.

[BabyD]

Oh no, I am so sad and sorry to hear about the fight.
Sending positive and healing vibes to you and Yohio, from across the globe…

[Bam]

BabyD, thank you so much!

[LittlePuffyTail]

After a fight like that, I would probably give them a few days off to calm things down before doing more bonding. Keep at it, though. Most bunnies have rough patches.

[Bam]

LittlePuffyTail, I will absolutely give them a couple of days. Bam seems quite ok, rather like he believes he’s won some great battle, but Yohio is scared and runs into his tunnel when I approach him.

Bam has been most un-bamingly alert and active these last few days, yesterday he even did the bunny 500s in the living-room and I’ve NEVER seen him do anything even close to a b500s before. It’s like this bonding-thing is an ego-boost for him. Weird that a sweet, lovely, gentle little bunbun like Bam can turn into a bullying monster when confronted with another bunny.

[Bam]

Thought I’d give it another try in the box, but as soon as Yohio realized he was in the same room as Bam, he started to shed sth terrible. So I just sat down with him in my lap and petted him with Bam running around my feet. Then I carried Yohio back to the bathroom. The front of my t-shirt was covered in bunny-fur. He shouldn’t have to be so scared.

Weighed Bam. He’s lost another 12 g (0,4 ounces). He’s been binkying in the living-room these last few evenings. Not like him at all. Maybe it’s the weight-loss. He seems happy and thriving and his poop is beautiful (as beautiful poop gets, that is).

 

[Bam]

Car-session this morning. No fighting. Even stopped the car for 15 min and there was still no fighting. Put them in a small enclosure when we came back, fighting occured almost immediately. Bam bit me right through the glove. Yohio bit my friend. Separated them after a minute or so, when they were taking a break from the fighting. Guess we should’ve put them back in the box and shook it, but since we were both bleeding, we had to go wash up and put band-aids on our wounds.

How tedious.

There’s like no progress and I’ve been at it for more than a month.

[Bam]

Now I’m wondering how best to progress. Should I take them for a car-ride today and all days until they bloody well get used to each other (ie a form of stress-stressbonding) or should I go slow? I have been going slow, although they have every day spent time in each other’s areas, taking turns being in the living-room, hallway, bedroom and bathroom. They’ve been peeing and pooping in each other’s litterboxes so they’ve had to deal with each others scents. They do a lot of chinning and they scatter poop.

Severe stress could make anybody sick, that’s why I’m reluctant to stress them severely, but they seem to be in good health. Yohio will sometimes growl when I pick up his scattered poop. I interpret it as a sign of stress.

I think Yohio is having a shed, a proper one, not a panic-shed. The good thing about all this is that Yo and I’ve had time to form a bond. I’ve enjoyed having him in the living-room with me because he is so active and so curious and social. Not to mention cute. He’s so cute it’s ridiculous even.

[Bam]

Long time since last post. I’ve continued with the uneventful car-sessions, then took a one-week pause until today. Then today they fought in the car. Lovely. It was Yohio who attacked Bam, repeatedly. I had to cup my hand around his nose for most of the session, because he wanted to bite Bam. He didn’t bite through my glove though so ever-positive me (no I’m not, I just want this to work SO much) felt he perhaps didn’t use as much force as he could’ve, like this was more kind of half-hearted. Towards the end of the session they calmed down and snuggled, then separated and ignored.

Yohio’s droopy ear has risen up again. I think it fell because of a bite-wound. Now that’s healed he’s an up-ears bunny again.

[LittlePuffyTail]

You seem to have some stubborn boys.

It reminds me of my bonding work with Stormy and Bindi. I found the car rides were helpful BUT I was never able to do bonding sessions right after the car or they would take all that stress out on each other.

Are you only doing the car ride sessions right now or adding them to your regular neutral space sessions?

[ScampersMom]

 I have been reading your journy and it has some similarities to my own.  It has only been a few days since my two figured things out.  They were doing well in the begining until they had an epic fight leaving our girl with nine staples in her side.  

I was also swapping cages and litter pans as well as toys to get them used to each others sent.  However, I think it just stressed Eddie out.  He became more aggressive.  Afte rthe fight we quite doing that.  Eddie calmed down a great deal.  Emma’s cage is just off the floor so when he was out he became interested in her but she could always hide.  For my two, who I am convinced hated each other, this worked well.  I am a first time bonder so I don’t really have much in the way of advice.  I know how much it ment to me to know there were others that had gone throught the same stress and it all worked out.  It is worth it.  

[Bam]

Thank you so much for your replies! It really helps a lot to know that others have been through difficult bondings. LPT: I’ve only been doing car-session because I haven’t dared anything else. There is no neutral space in my apartment anymore so I’ll have to take them elsewhere for neutral space. The kitchen is the only place where none of the buns ever go, but that doesn’t seem neutral enough for them. It can be done but it means I need to involve other people and not everybody find it ethically ok to put two animals who so obviously hate each other togeather. My brother, f ex. Sweden is an under-developed country when it comes to rabbit-bonding. There’s even a law against keeping two male bunnies togeather, although I believe the law is about two intact males.

ScampersMom: So sorry about your girl, nine staples! Is she ok now? Maybe it’s bad that I let Yohio and Bam take turns spending time in the living-room, but that’s kind of the only way Yohio can get play-time and human companionship-time. He’s still housed in the bathroom because he needs supervision during his time out, the apartment is Bam-proofed but I feel nothing could ever be quite Yohio-proofed.

I think I’ll keep up the car-sessions. Maybe getting a cage on legs for Yohio would be a good idea, so they could have some contact with the ability to hide from each other. It kind of feels like a really good idea. The ability to hide in a secure place IS important for all animals. (for people too, come to think of it. We all need a secure place where we feel protected and safe.)

[Author]

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