Bindi’s Saga

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thought I’d start a new topic for this.

Got an e-mail from my vet this morning regarding the ear culture. I’m a bit confused about the situation but more on that later.

Am pretty upset and frustrated right now. Just felt like crying this afternoon (doesn’t help that I also have tonsilitis ). So basically, she wants him back on oral Baytril, same dose as before the stasis because his eyes have started running again. Just a run through, his eyes are watery and his X-ray showed inflammation on the bone of his nasal cavity. What my vet is calling “sinusitis”. Last time he was on oral Baytril, he was about 2 weeks in with about 2 doses left and he got bad stasis for 3 days. Thought I was going to lose him. Obviously, I’m very afraid to put him on another regimen of Baytril because of this. My vet says we have to get this “sinusitis” under control as she’s quite certain that is what is causing him to lose weight.

I voiced my concerns in another e-mail and she said she understands my hesitation but really doesn’t think the Baytril caused the stasis as the side effect is usually runny stool and not stasis.

I’m gonna be a worried mess the whole time he’s on this med, around 2 weeks. So scared it happens again.

What do you guys think? I feel I have no choice but I’m super scared. If he gets sick again, I will feel like I caused it. Also, anyone have any info on “sinusitis”?

As for his ears, I went to the vet today but was unable to talk to anyone but the vet assistant who basically said they got the preliminary results back. Couldn’t make any sense as to whether they are still infected or not. I’m guessing they are because she said my vet has her working with the pharmacist to come up with something for his ears. Maybe this is a good thing and they can find something to replace the preventative drops that were working so well before they were discontinued.

Vet said she will call me soon.  I’m truly stressed out.

Any vibes very much appreciated. My guy needs them.

[Deleted User]

Little Puffy Tail, my heart felt prayers for you and Bindi. Really hope this treatment period goes well and he Finally can turn that corner. Please give him a stroke or two for me.

[colleenbunny]

http://www.petmd.com/rabbit/conditions/nose/c_rb_rhinitis_sinusitis#.UZVuIrWyBeU

This was the best I could find, but maybe you could google “rabbit sinusitis treatment”

[jerseygirl]

Are you able to give the baytril in another form? Injectable, eye or nose drops or nebulised?

Regarding the discontinued drops, there was that human form of drops that had same active ingredients as far as I could tell. They couldn’t be used?
ETA: it was either neosporin or polysporin eye drops. I’m sorry, I can’t remember which one it was.

(((LPT))) sorry to hear you’re unwell. Continued {{{vibes}}} for Bindi boy too!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thanks, guys.

Jersey- I just e-mailed my vet re: injectable. Strange she hasn’t mentioned. I suspect it’s something she doesn’t use much and, therefore, doesn’t stock it in her clinic. But since it’s not an overly urgent situation, I would be willing to wait if she could get it. Thanks for reminding me. I’ve never gone the way of injectable.

[Bam]

Lots of vibes for Bindi!

I don’t know about rabbit sinusitis, but in humans it can be difficult to treat and may need several regimens of antibiotics, because those cavities are excellent places for bacteria to hide out in and if not all bacteria are killed by the antibiotics, the infection will return. That’s why human sinusitis can be very stubborn and often has to be treated with both antibiotics and by flushing, a friend of mine had to have tubes up his nose for two weeks and have his sinuses flushed daily because the infection wouldn’t give.

I have no clue if rabbit sinuses even could be flushed, such tiny structures, but my point is, I think your vet is right that he needs his antibiotics, because any bacterial infection that close to the brain is potentially life-threating and can’t be left untreated.

[Sarita]

This is a post from Dana Krempels and I suspect this is the cause of Bindi’s problems:

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/201…charge.htm

I also do not believe the baytril is a cause of stasis – it’s perfectly safe for rabbits.

[RabbitPam]

Sarita – you beat me to it, thanks. I was going to suggest you do a bit of research/consulting with Dana Krempels by sending her an email. There’s also another doc that some of our team use in CA that they swear by (am I thinking of Dr. Harvey? Name please.) that might be able to answer an email consultation for a second opinion.
But if both your vet and Dana Krempels say the Baytril is not the cause of the stasis, I would go with that. You certainly know the signs to watch for, so at the first hint you can take him off. But in the meantime, it may clear up alot of his discomfort and make him better – finally.

{{{{{{{{{{{Healing vibes for our beloved Bindi Loo}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[RabbitPam]

P.S. A little personal aside that happened to me yesterday: years ago I used a face product with Aloe Vera in it. Well, I broke out and sinuses filled up – your basic allergy. So from then on I avoided aloe in products, along with scents. After I had tried some organic aloe gel on Sammy’s sore hock, with some success, I stashed it in the fridge. I read on line that it was great for healing irritated nose skin in humans, the result of an unhealed sunburn.
I tried dabbing it on my nose, with some trepidation about allergic reaction.

Not only did I feel fine, but it helped clear up my nose!
Which meant it was something else in that stuff years ago that bothered me, not the aloe.

Soooooo, I will now stop avoiding it.
My point about the baytril, n’est pas?

[Roberta]

Years ago they used Vegetable gum in a lot of products, even aloe to make it thicker and suitable for applying to the skin. vegetable gum is actually gluten and it was only recently I began to understand why many so called natural products especially sunblocks would leave me wheezing and in a rash. Wheat allergies affect more people and animals than you realise.

[jerseygirl]

Since you’ve seen Bindi not do so great on oral antibiotic more then once, i think it is worth noting. I would push for other options myself.
Tagging onto what bam said, I agree about nasal infection (ears too!) getting trapped in pockets and being stubborn to clear up. I would think a more direct route of antibiotic paired with a blood born route could be beneficial.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thank you everyone for your input.

Vet just e-mailed me back about Baytril injections. She said Bindi would need to go into the clinic every 12 hours for them so she definitely does not recommend it. She didn’t mention about me doing them myself, but I don’t think I could give him needles anyhow.

I may be going on a daytrip tomorrow (I had to cancel my plans the weekend he got sick) so I’m going to hold off on giving the Baytril until Sunday. If I don’t go, I will start tomorrow.

Thanks for the article, Sarita. What’s frustrating is that the only symptom he has is runny eyes. Never sneezes, no nasal discharge. So it kind of feels, in a way, like I’m treating him for nothing. Just going by what the X-ray says. Never heard of sinusitis with no other symptoms. It’s also frustrating that he had almost finished his course of antibiotics, with 2 doses left and it came back. So it’s clearly stubborn.

Pam: I will e-mail Dana. The thing with Bindi and the stasis, last time he showed zero symptoms. He just got really sick very suddenly so I had no way to know ahead of time and take him off the Baytril. He was eating great, pooping great.

Jersey- Don’t think I really have any other options at this point, which is incredibly frustrating.

Have you every heard of a rabbit with more problems? I’m assuming a lot of his problems might have to do with the fact that his face is really flat. It adds to his cuteness, but causes problems too.

[MissD]

Lots of vibes for Bindi, hope he gets better soon.

[jerseygirl]

She doesn’t think medicated eye drops are worth while? It sounds like the ducts are not draining… Maybe due to congestion deeper in the sinus?
Is the bone thickening in some parts? I think that’s what happened with Mimzy.

[Sarita]

Well the eye area and sinus area are really the same area in rabbit’s anatomy…well I guess just like ours so it’s most likely related – the ears, the eyes, the nose…

[BinkyBunny]

I know what you mean about the injections, as I have Steve do them mostly. There was a time I remember that I used Baytril injection on one bunny (might have been Bailey because her stomach was so sensitive!) The injections were definitely better for her in that regard. Would your husband be willing to do the injections? We had a vet tech teach us how to do it and though it’s icky and rough at first, (I admit, i still don’t like doing it) it can be really helpful to know how to do it – especially if you ever have to give sub-q fluids on your own. (under a vet guidance of course).

Anyway, if you or your husband are able to brave the injections, it might be the way to go that may be easier on Bindi’s stomach.

Also, I was always worried about whether the injections themselves (poking into the skin) would stress out the bunny and cause digestive issues that way. However, I was told by the vet tech that taught us how to inject, that the area of the skin on the back of a bunnies neck definitely has less nerve-endings there, and therefore they don’t feel so much pain there. I found that it really didn’t bother them much when we poked them there as long as when we injected, we tented the skin up so that no muscle or bone would be hit with the needle.

Oh and I was told that, in some bunnies, Baytril can sting a little, but that it won’t last long. 

 

[LittlePuffyTail]

Thanks for your reply, BB.

I’m so confused and not sure what to do. I was going to start the oral today but now I’m hesitating.

I will talk to Ricky today and see what he thinks about the injections. He was able to give SubQ’s to Bindi several times. I’m a bit worried, though, because the last time we gave at home Sub Q, Bindi got that huge watery lump at the site and had to wear a cone. Not sure if that was caused by us or the vet, however.

I feel like my vet doesn’t like the idea of injection Baytril or why else wouldn’t she have mentioned about us giving them? Oh, well. He’s my bunny and the decision should ultimately be up to me.

I’m sort of half and half. In a way, I think it’s quite possible a fluke that he ended up getting bad stasis while on the oral, because he’s had life threatening stasis for no apparent reason a few times in the past.

I just hate this whole situation. It doesn’t even seem like there is anything wrong with him worth treating. Just some runny eyes. Am I going to have to add this to his chronic problems along with his ears?

So will talk to Rick and then my vet again about the injections and let you guys know. I do worry, as you did BB, about injections twice a day causing him stress. Stress and Bindi are not a good combo.

So, if his length of oral Baytril prescribed lasts about 2 weeks would it be the same amount of time for the injections? Or shorter? Two weeks of injections every 12 hours would really suck.

Jersey: I can’t recall if she mentoned thickening. She did say there was inflammation of the bone in the sinus cavity.

Any more info, vibes greatly appreciated.

 

[jerseygirl]

If you already have the prescription filled, you could start him on the oral baytril and if you start to see any problems, have injectable as plan B.

[LittlePuffyTail]

That’s what I am going to do, Jersey. I did fill the oral and it was almost $40.00

Just talked to my vet and she wants me to start treatment asap and Ricky is not keen on the injections since he works and wouldn’t always be around to do them anyhow. Just ***Crossing my fingers**** all will go well.

Just got a call from the pharmacy that Bindi’s ear meds are prepared. Kind of caught me off guard. A people pharmacy making rabbit ear drops. Still not sure about the culture results or if these drops are a treatment or a preventative thing but going to pick them up today. $50.00 a bottle….I hope it’s a BIG bottle!

Bindi just did a big binky.

[jerseygirl]

Haha, he knows we’re talkin’ about him.

A people pharmacy making rabbit ear drops

So many meds are approved for use in humans, dogs or cats but used “off label” for rabbits. Thing is, it was highly likely it was tested on a rabbit before considered safe for people. : (
I think if rabbits had to go through that, why can their species benefit from these meds once they come onto the market? All that data… It may as well be useful for rabbits in the end.
Sorry… going off topic.

[MimzMum]

My pharma makes lots of compounded meds for my animals. I wouldn’t be able to get them otherwise. They do a great job.
Yes, Mimzy has a thickened area in his sinuses and sadly, because he is a lop, he is going to have trouble with both those and the teeth. He’s actually having more crusties around his eyes too. He sees a vet ophthalmologist this next Tuesday. His vet wanted him to have his cataract checked.

The thing about Baytril injections is you don’t have to worry about the meds leaking out like you do with Pen-G. I once had to give Mimzy injectible baytril by mouth for a week. He didn’t like the taste but it worked better than the regular oral baytril, oddly enough. :-/
I wonder if it is the syrup in the oral baytril that caused Bindi’s trouble?

I hope those drops help…yikes it sure is expensive to get these kinds of things for our bunnies.

[Bam]

Well, as I’ve said, sinusitis in rabbits is not known to me, but in humans sinusitis can manifest itself primarily in facial and brow aches, due to pressure from within the sinuses. That’s sth you couldn’t diagnose very well in a rabbit, since they can’t speak =/

In humans this is often treated with both cortison-spray (flutikason etc) to releive the swelling and inflammation + antibiotics to kill the bacteria. But there are of course some risks with cortison and bacterial infections, so perhaps your vet doesn’t think it’s a good idea for Bindi. Plus the fact that the availability of nasal sprays for rabbits probably is very low.

I so hope he gets well.

[Deleted User]

Little Puffy Tail, I was just reading the article Sarita posted the link to on this thread. I’m not sure if you noticed but on that page I came across a reference to a mailing list that Dana owns. I wondered if you ever posted Bindi’s story on it? Part of the description on the home page is:
“Also, EtherBun is a good resource for those interested in learning more about rabbit medical care and general health. Presently, our subscribers include veterinarians, vet students, microbiologists, nutritionists, chemists, biologists and others whose areas of expertise are very helpful in getting to the root of a rabbit health problem.”
Thought someone there might have an additional suggestion and/or insight to offer to you.
The link is: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/etherbun.html#otps

Sorry if this is all old news to you but just in case, thought I’d mention it.

[LittlePuffyTail]

This is the reply from my vet. I had e-mailed asking about the results from his culture. Can’t believe the price of the ear drops. $50.00 plus tax AND the worst part is the shelf life is only 2 weeks. So I can’t just save them in case of a next time. He has to be on them 2x daily for a week. Hope the one bottle is enough.

part of my problem in finding him the meds. We also have to be careful as his culture showed he has two bacteria & they have resistance to some antibiotics (incl baytril unfortunately). …… is always expensive & was our last resort. I called numerous pharmacies & vet compounding pharmacies that we use & no one else had it or could make it in a bunny friendly suspension.

Don’t be alarmed about the Baytril. Bindi has had it lots before without problems. He had unusual seed filled feces when his bowels started to move again, as we discussed, which would point to maybe a hay or diet issue. Call or email this weekend if you have concerns.

Thanks for the info, Bam. It’s really not an area I know anything about. We will start with the Baytril and go from there, I guess. Not sure if she’s going to suggest more X-rays at the end of this course or not. Or just see if his eyes dry up.

His eyes are not super runny, just some wetness, especially the right side. And some days they are worse than others.

GreyDove- I actually forgot about that web group. I had looked into years ago. Will do so again. Thanks for the reminder.

[MimzMum]

There were seeds in Bindi’s feces? Did the vet say what kind? This is a new one to me, unless the hay is full of seedheads that he’s eating.
I know my hay lately has been very ‘weedy’ (not the stuff I get from the BB store, but a different supplier) and I’ve been wondering why the buns have been turning their noses up at it…except for Pip of course who will eat anything, but she seems to have a few digestive issues going on. I got some of the young oat from BinkyBunny recently and they are gobbling it up.

Seeds definitely could bung up his poor tummy then. Did your vet give you any benebac or other gut flora replacement to go with the anitibiotics? I would give the baytril in the mornings and evenings and the benebac about mid day so they didn’t conflict one another.

I hope Bindi will be feeling better soon. (((((hugs)))))

[RabbitPam]

I just want to second BB about the injections not being as bad as it looks to do. I also learned that that area of the skin behind their ears has fewer nerve endings, so they are less sensitive. It’s not so bad if you have a firm hold on him.

I guess with the ears as well as the runny eyes it’s kind of a head issue, so the baytril will treat all of that systemically.
My vet uses a people pharmacy for her prescriptions as well – not at all uncommon, so don’t worry there either.

Maybe he’s allergic to the hay that has the seeds? Does he like Orchard grass? (I know switching foods might be the last thing you want to try at the moment, but it’s a thought to throw out there.)

This probably means that Bindi has royal ancestry, like the flat-faced dogs that used to belong to Chinese Emperors.
Sending kisses on that cute flat nose of his. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Healing vibes}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[tanlover14]

As BB suggested, I learned how to do the sub-q fluids today actually…and getting the needle in there wasn’t bad. Usually this stuff can make me queasy. Also, for the pain….you can give Metacam if the needle pricking is bothering him. Some medications can make them more sensitive to things like that but usually Metacam will clear that up. <– Just a side note onto what BB was saying…

Just read your comment about the huge watery bump – I was taught today if you rub the skin a bit in that area after the fluids it will help it kind of spread out leaving not such a big bump for him to bother.

Also sending lots of vibes for you both, LPT.  You are such a great bunny momma.   And Bindi Loo loves you for everything you do for him!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Regarding the seeds his in his poops, the vet wasn’t sure what it was. She said it was in his first batch of poop that he made while at the vet. I didn’t think of it till a few days after but my guess is one of two things: I had given him a dried flower (bunny safe) that he’d never had before the evening before he got sick. I had left one out in the living room for Olivia but apparently she didn’t like it, so Bindi ate that one too. I crushed open the flower when I thought of it and there was seeds inside. Either that or the Oxbow I had bought a few days before was especially coarse. I ended up throwing out that bag just in case. And no more flowers. Seems weird that some little seeds could cause that awful stasis he had.

I will be giving Benebac. I had given him a dose right also the night before he got sick, but I’m pretty sure that would not have caused the tummy upset. He’s had Benebac before. My vet said to give Benebac every 3 days while on Baytril.

Pam: My buns eat Timothy, Orchard and Oat. I sometimes give one or the other or mix two kinds. Mostly I buy what looks the nicest at the store. Been buying Oat hay a lot since it’s more fattening for Bindi. lol, yes he’s certainly royalty. We used to have a Shih-tzu with a really flat face and she had a lot of chronic issues too.

Thanks, Tanlover.

[MimzMum]

Hm…my vet says benebac every day or every other day, depending on your dosage. :-/
I really hope he does well on the baytril this time, LPT. ((((((HUGS))))))

[TBpony414]

Since Bindi has a flat face and runny eyes, have you had a lacronasal duct flush done on him before? My flat faced guy gets them done every time he’s put under for his teeth but they can do it without anesthesia, they just put some drops in their eyes first. Tear ducts in rabbits join together but in the case of squishy faces the ducts get clogged very easily and can cause runny eyes and/or lots of eye crusties. If you rub just on the top of the nose on either side of the bone in a circular motion for 60 seconds 2-3x/day it should really help loosen the ducts. I thought it was a bunch of hocus pocus but when I don’t do it Willy clearly has more eye watering. Worth a try, can’t hurt and doesn’t cost any money

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Just want to send Vibes to Bindi!!
I would be nervous about the Baytril too after a stasis episode, but likely it wasn’t the baytril, they usually just get runny poops from it, but I know I’d be just as hesitant regardless of that knowledge, stasis is so scary. {{{Bindi}}} I bet with the benebac, all will be well

[LittlePuffyTail]

TBPony- I don’t think he’s ever had his tear ducts flushed. Vet had mentioned she would do it at a future dental but his dental was done and she didn’t mention it so I don’t think it was done. I’m going to ask her. Thanks for the massage tip! I will def try it!

K&K: Thanks

[tanlover14]

Sending lots of vibes for your little Bindi Loo! These babies sure are keeping us on our toes, LPT! So sending you lots of vibes too!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Bindi will be done his ear meds on Saturday and has an appointment this Friday for a re-check. Hope the ears are cleared up. He is almost done his Baytril. His eyes are much less runny, hope they stay that way.

[MimzMum]

Glad to see a positive update for Bindi Loo. I’ve been thinking about you both.
I hope his appointment goes well. Keeping up the healing vibes and prayers.

[tanlover14]

Hope the appointment goes well!

((Bindi Loo))

[RabbitPam]

Looking forward to a good report from the vet.
Here’s a few extra
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Healing vibes for Bindi Loo}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[LittlePuffyTail]

Grrrr…..his eyes were nice and dried up and last night I noticed they were all wet again. He just finished the oral Baytril this morning.

Thanks for the vibes guys.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Positive update for Mr. Bindi. His ears are clear. Vet suspects, at this point, that his ducts are a bit plugged and to just monitor his runny eyes. Some days they are dry and some days they are runny. She suspects the nasal inflammation is cleared up as well but I will obviously keep an eye out for any more symptoms.

We got caught in a horrible downpour and tunderstorm on the drive back. Poor little guy was scared. Momma too. She hates thunder!

[MimzMum]

Oh LPT…you and me both! 0_0 I hate thunderstorms! I used to think they were thrilling as a kid, but now all I can think of is lightning strike wildfires when those storm cells go over!
Good to hear that Bindi got a happy report at the vet! I really hope his eyes will be better and that his nose will stay clear. I wonder if environmental factors help aggravate Bindi’s nose and eyes once spring hits too? Everyone’s sinuses are miserable here right now. We just had summer hit with a vengeance and besides the incredible heat, the tree pollen is terrible. Mimzy did the first rapid fire sneeze fit I’ve heard in almost a year the other day. I hope you guys don’t have that problem back there.
Continuing (((((((stay well))))))) vibes for Bindi. Thinking of you both. xx

[LittlePuffyTail]

Pollen is horrible here too. I was at my sister’s place yesterday and the pollen was so bad it looked like it was snowing.

[jerseygirl]

Great to hear!

How’d his tum go on the meds this time round?

[LittlePuffyTail]

Great. No problems at all. Assuming it wasn’t the Baytril after all.

[Author]

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