Nora Sick? Again?

[tanlover14]

So Nora girl has me on my toes.. Again. 

Not only is she a hormonal wreck but her sneezing is beginning to get worse again.

 

Back track – sneezing/head swaying when we first got her almost two months ago.  She was put on meds for the sneezing (which I believed was helping her – her sneezing decreased quite a bit and got to less than one sneeze per day).   They didn’t continue any longer with the meds (because the vet said it was most likely gone).  Well, her sneezing is definitely getting worse again.  With NO discharge.  But she’s been sneezing quite harder the past few days again.  

She was taken to ANOTHER vet about a week after she stopped her meds – we noticed she was sneezing a few times a day again.  They looked in her nasal passages and nothing seemed irritated.  They mentioned the possibility of something being stuck in there (and having to do water flushes) or to put her under and check it out. 

I really don’t know what to think.  She has remained completely active, is always eating like a horse, and has shown no other symptoms besides the sneezing (with no discharge).  She had the head swaying but we have come to the conclusion that is simply the scanning that REW bunnies do.  Every time she has been to the vet she has seemed healthy as a horse (besides her first visit when she was malnourished).  Besides the sneezing. 

We will be attempting to get her into the vet again tomorrow. 

 

Side Note:  I don’t think it’s from pellets or hay as she seems to be sneezing when she’s just laying around on the carpet also.  UGH.  I’ve looked through Dana Krempels articles on sneezing but they all come with the symptoms of runny nose.   Anyone else have any ideas?  Or have they ever dealt with this.  Simba is ALSO a sneezer sometimes.  BUT definitely not like her or as often.   With Simba I believe it is just dusty hay or pellets that makes his happen.  With her I’m not so sure because of how often.  

 

My only other theory is with the meds she wasn’t on them long enough which caused one or two bacteria to remain which caused the symptoms of sneezing to slowly fester again – her sneezing dimished and has slowly gotten worse again over the last month.  OR she has a foreign object stuck in her nose?  But then I would assume the sneezing wouldn’t have gotten any better… ARGH NORA GIRL.  

 

Be healthy for Momma PLEASEEEEE. <3 

[Sarita]

I guess I would suggest a culture then – most likely they will have to sedate her for this.

[tanlover14]

Do you know the price range usually for a culture? (I’m sure it probably depends on the vet and where you are but is there a usual price range?)

I just suggested this to the rescue as she is still our foster through the rescue (you can’t adopt until they have been spayed/neutered). One of the vets they use (the 2nd one we have seen for her) is highly suggested by my own vet so I know he is good and someone our current vet for the others trusts. So I’m sure I should trust his judgment to her and what could be wrong.

It’s a main concern not only for HER health but as we have planned on attempting to bond her with the others in about 2 months – I worry about them contracting whatever it is she has been having. For a respiratory infection – do their passages usually show signs of irritation? She has shown none so far.

[Sarita]

Here is a very recent post from Dana Krempel’s concerning a young rabbit as well – 13 weeks old w/chronic sneezing that may be helpful:

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/201…-tests.htm

Been a very long while since I’ve don a culture so I’m not sure what the cost is.

[Monkeybun]

It could be an allergy too, especially if there’s no weird discharge.

[tanlover14]

Thanks, Sarita! I looked through the info on that post and another (also Dana Krempels – All Experts). I was going to send in a question but realized she is on vacay from there until May 31st. So that’s not helpful! But the other posts of hers definitely were.

MB – That’s what we initially thought – such as her hay was too dusty for her or something? Or possibly the CareFresh. Both of which she is around CONSTANTLY. But she doesn’t sneeze all the time. It’s just when she’s been sneezing lately she’s sneezed a good 10-15 times in a row. And it’s not any specific time – new hay, new CareFresh or anything like that. Sometimes she’s in her house, other times she’s out. I just can’t seem to find a common factor if it is since she’s not really ever around the hay or CareFresh when she’s out playing except to go to the bathroom or gobble up a mouthful of hay. But like today for example, she hadn’t been around either for a good hour and began sneezing like a crazy again. Hmmm, idkkkk.

We are still trying to figure out the vet meet-up with the rescue so it’s iffy as to whether she willl have an actual appointment tomorrow or not.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I would do a culture too. There is always the chance that it was not the right antibiotic for the particular type of bacteria, if any, is present.

I had a culture done for Olivia when I first got her as she had an eye infection. It was around $75.00 plus tax. They didn’t need to sedate her, she was just so terrified they were able to do it without her putting up a fuss.

[jerseygirl]

Hi TL

Did they listen to her chest on previous visits?

If you do decide to have a culture done, they can investigate for foreign bodies at the same time. If something were stuck though, you would think she’d show more signs of infection and develop discharge…. I would have thought.

Some Qu’s:
Is she on carpet in her habitat? I have actually heard of an angora cross that reacted to carpet!

Is it getting warmer where you are or have you been using a heater because of sudden cooler weather?

I suppose Nora and Simbas fur hold more irritants then the Tans. Or their underfur might irritate the nose at times.
Maybe a air purifier and or humidifier might help?

Another thing I thought is maybe its just the way her nasal passages are formed and that it could change as she grows. [ETA] When Jelly was about Nora’s age I took him to the vet for a leaky eye. She mentioned his face was quite asymmetrical and it could be the reason the tear duct was not draining correctly. She also said it might self resolve as her grew. I think it did as he only had it that one time. Anyway, my point is I think their facial structure is still growing and changing at this age- judging from what my vet had said.
Btw, I’m actually reminded of Jelly sometimes when I’ve seen certain photos of Nora. The ones looking down onto her head. There’s something similar about the eyes.

An out of box theory is: could she react this way to light? I think I might have asked this before??
You already know her vision is effected differently so this is why I got to thinking perhaps light is related to her sneezing.
There’s that condition humans have where they have rapid sneezing bouts when light hits the eye in a certain way: photic sneezing.
I tried google rabbits and this condition a few months ago. Don’t think I got any result.
Wow. I’ve rambled sorry.

[tanlover14]

She is scheduled to go in tonight to the vets while I’m at work – the rescue gets clinics done by the vet MY vet approves of so I’m dropping her off at the clinic with one of the rescue owners and picking her up afterwards. It’s really difficult for me as she is technically THEIR bunny. So I’m really… confused? as to what my limits should be to suggestions and getting tests done. They pay for the appointment and everything done (and because we are not okay with them paying for her stuff since we plan on keeping her) and we pay them back in donations. I suggested a culture… but I’m not sure if they will push for one or not.

I was thinking about sticking a paper with her explaining her symptoms and how there is no discharge and the sneezing isn’t extremely frequent but when she does she goes into a huge fit of sneezes. Yesterday morning she was sneezing a lot but then last night with the boyfriend he barely heard any. But then Sunday she seemed to be sneezing frequently also! Urgh, I don’t know. I’m in this weird place where idk if I AM being overprotective and doing the right thing or just wasting the rescues time. Sidney sneezed a few times last night (she never sneezes) but it was only twice (at the same time) and I believe it was the hay as we had just put new hay in, she climbed in, and sneezed. So I guess there IS a possibility the hay is extra dusty this time around. Around the time her sneezing stopped and decreased, they were actually getting the small bags of Oxbow Orchard Grass. I guess I could actually go out on a limb and say her sneezing has MAYBE increased since we got the box of Oxbow again.

Since we are paying for the appointment, I don’t feel too horrible about sending her in again as I need to make sure for the sake of my other bunnies. And her as well, although every other aspect of her is okay.

Jersey –

She is on carpet when she has playtime but other than that in her house there is no carpet. She has sneezed both inside AND outside – so I’m not sure. Although there is carpet surrounding her house? The carpet with the Angora is really interesting. I’m a bit confused as to whether she is part Angora or part Wooly because I’m not very good at telling the difference and had heard Lionheads could be both? Although it’s possible she is not Lionhead at all and is just an Angora/Wooly mix. She has all the characteristics of a Lionhead though which is why I just refer to her as one of my Lions and nothing else.

It HAS been getting warmer – but our house stays at a relatively normal temperature throughout the year. It had gotten up to 77 in the house before the condo building finally turned the air conditioning on and it’s back at 72 but that has been normal for weeks now. Simba is definitely more sensitive to things also as he has sneezed before but it was determined that his was nothing to be worried about. Some things (dusty hay or CareFresh) just irritate him. But he has never sneezed anywhere close to the amount Nora does. We are actually thinking about getting a humidifer as we have read that may be the reason our pepper plants in the AeroGardens are not doing as well as they should. So I’ll have to keep an eye on if her sneezing changes when we buy it and get it all set up.

Interesting. Her and Simba have VERY different facial structures. Hers is elongated (almost like an Angoras face) and Sims is more squished.

She does react to changes in light – as I THINK is usual with scanning behavior. My BF and I are very confident that her swaying is actually her scanning. So we have become not worried about it in the least. We have DEFINITELY noticed how her scanning increases whenever she is introduced to a new area. Or even when you move things in her area around so the house is facing a different way or whatnot. Her eyesight doesn’t seem bad at all as I’ve watched for clues to her not being able to see well. But she has no problem finding anything (we moved her food in her house and she went right up and munched). Her litter box was changed to a high top corner one and she had no trouble with that. She never seems to be “feeling” around for things – she always just walks right up and buries herself into whatever she’s doing. I just looked up the photic sneezing and the BB thread post about it popped up – Zonn has it! Hahaha. Anyways, I used the Flashlight app on my phone and shined the light into her eyes. No sneezing happened.

I don’t mind your rambling! I like it – hahha, gives me new ideas and possibilities to ponder!!

[Sarita]

I don’t really understand the whole scenario of you not owning her to tell you the truth – I thought your boyfriend purchased her for you. I guess what you are saying is the rescue is allowing you to use their discount for the vet…is that what you are saying? If that is the case then you can give them the money upfront if you want to have more tests done – that is what I would do or just pay the vet directly.

Lionheads definitely are only bred for looks (just like any other rabbits) so probably she has some “birth defect” (and I don’t mean that in a mean way) like Dana Krempels suggested in the link. She did also mention that there is no evidence of rabbit’s having hay allergies and mentioned about the environment being well ventilated although that’s not to say she couldn’t have allergies to something but there are no tests for testing rabbits for allergies that I am aware of – I know they do allergy tests with dogs though (and possibly cats).

But if it were my rabbit I think I would wait and see a bit – maybe she will outgrow this. Maybe it is seasonal allergies (who can know) – people have seasonal allergies and heck this is the season for that.

I suppose you could do bloodwork if you are willing to pay for that – it may or may not show something.

[jerseygirl]

I know the feeling of “should I – shouldn’t I” be concerned. I was feeling that way yesterday with Jerseys visit. I pushed for her to be sedated to have a proper look then felt guilty and overly paranoid rest of day for it.

The reason I asked about heat is I’ve read some buns with chronic resp issues do better with cool air. It helps keep the nasal passages open.
Doesn’t sound like heat is any issue for Nora though.

The possible issue with a culture when there isn’t discharge is they might end up just getting
a sample of things that are natural to the nasal passage. You never know though, she might have some infectious material up there and that’s what shes trying to sneeze out.

I’m guessing if anything, she’ll come back with another course of antibiotics. Not a bad thing because if you do see improvements when on them, it probably indicates there is a bacterial infection as opposed to allergy, fungal, viral or foreign body.

[tanlover14]

Ah, Sarita – I understand your confusion. Haha! My BF did not purchase her for me – one of my friends sent me a picture of her covered in hay and sawdust (or pine chips – I honestly don’t know the difference) and we went to check her out to see if she seemed to have any apparent illnesses. (This same pet store was one we had stopped using because the last rabbit we saw there had a horrible upper resp. infection with mucous covering his nose and paws.) Needless to say, we were worried about the newbie and went to check on her (healthwise). She seemed okay and we didn’t notice any apparent illnesses besides not having any food in her area and being covered in hay and sawdust. Well, the next day my BF showed up at my work with her because he felt horrible leaving her in those conditions. I had discussed the condition of the bunny with the rescue (Rabbit Wranglers) I got Simba through and volunteer for and had asked them WHEN they think it’s necessary to take a bunny out. Their response was it’s really difficult because they are volunteer based and low on fosters but with our fostering they would be able to take her in. But that if an obvious infection or illness came up to take her anyways. Well, the BF took her because he felt so bad. And we agreed to foster her until she could be spayed and adopted (we planned on paying her bills from the beginning as we felt it was our decision to take her – but the rescue would find a home for her). We HAVE made the decision to keep her now. But as she was turned over to Rabbit Wranglers the night we rescued her, we are unable to adopt her until she has been spayed (their policy). Which means she must go through their vets AND they refuse to let us pay for the treatments. So we have made donations back to them to make up for it. Hope this helps! We had definitely not planned on another bunny. But after much thought and consideration we decided keeping her was doable.

I’ve heard the same thing about the birth defects as you said, Sarita. I’m not surprised if it could be something along those lines. And you’re probably right – we have decided to let her go through with this vet visit and see what the vet says. If they find nothing again – then we will let it go. It seems though with other resp. infections, they get worse – as in begin to have discharge and other symptoms. She doesn’t though so I’m just at a loss. Haha. They mentioned dental issues and possibly having her teeth re-examined again. But I read in Krempels article that usually the teeth causes a “runny nose” as it impacts into the tear ducts.

I will let you guys know what the vet says! And thank you so much for all the advice. It’s so easy with my Tans because I know their whole life stories and I have access to any information about them OR their mother/father background if need be. So with Nora and Simba I really worry more about something else from their past triggering something or them having contracted something. Le Sigh.

[tanlover14]

Ah, Jersey. Forgot to answer your other question! They have listened to her chest three times now. (How many times she’s been to the vet since we got her.) Both vets said she was clear of fluid in the chest (from listening), was having no breathing problems, or anything of the such. They really thought she was a very healthy girl.

 

She goes in for her spay in about a month – so it worries me putting her under in the case that something IS wrong which is why we have been so adament to make sure her sneezing (and before the head swaying) were nothing that could give her a weak immune system for her spay.

[Sarita]

Well their are always x-rays as well to the head to show any problems that way but I would say if you are going to adopt her wait until you get her to start having all these extra tests done.

[tanlover14]

Now that you say that – I think you’re right. We would prefer to have any tests/procedures done by our own vet that we really like and trust anyways.

[Sarita]

That way too you can have a conversation directly with the vet rather than having the rescue as a go between. It would be easier on you and on them too. When is she going to be spayed?

[jerseygirl]

You might like to read this allergy article I just read. It was published only pretty recently. Nice to see articles on house rabbits!
http://www.examiner.com/article/signs-of-airborne-allergies-the-house-rabbit

It does make mention of litter materials. It suggests paper litters but even these can set of sneezing with an overly sensitive rabbit. I’d read some get the sneezes from carefresh.

[Sarita]

I guess my question is concerning allergies in rabbits – how can you truly know since they don’t even test them for allergies. Obviously she is suggesting a process of elimination which may be all you can do if it’s caused by the environment. But the cause could also be a low immune system.

I say you’d have to be a 24/7 house cleaner based on this article too :~) – heck I wish I was!

[tanlover14]

I agree, Sarita – she is set to be spayed mid-June. The rescue preferred to wait until she got her weight up some and got a little older as she was malnourished when we got her. We will put her on the list to be spayed mid-June and depending on how soon this vet (we prefer) can get her in she will be spayed. As you can imagine, illnesses take precedent over spaying so it could be exactly mid-June or a week or two after depending on how many sick buns need to be seen at the time.

That article is extremely interesting. If her sneezing persists after her spay – I may talk to my vet about those remedies. I am more inclined to say maybe she IS more sensitive to these things as she has more symptoms of those than necessarily infections. Some food for thought for sure!

I’ve wondered about the CareFresh. As Simba sneezed a few times the first few weeks he was switched to it. But he was fine again after a week or two. We figured the CareFresh or batch of hay was to blame.

[Sarita]

Well spaying is definitely important so hopefully you can get her spayed in June which isn’t too far away.

Maybe she’s allergic to rabbits :~) Hopefully her sneezing will subside soon.

[jerseygirl]

Sarita, very true. I think the term allergy is mis-used in a way. It’s more these things are irritants – and for anyone in the home.
A rabbit may have a pre existing condition or lower immune and are more sensitive to irritants. Or have fur (or nasal cavity) that collects irritants more. But not necessarily allergic.

TL, I personally would go the air purifiers before trying homeopathic treatments if it does turn out to be environmental.
It would benefit all occupants of the household too.
It’s more “remove the cause” then “treat the symptom”.

Maybe she’s allergic to rabbits :~)

Lol
Shhhh!

[tanlover14]

Oh believe me – she will be spayed ASAP. Her hormones are through the roof! We got her around 2-3 months old and she’s currently around 4-5 months based on that. She’s grunting at everything. I swear if you LOOK at her wrong she grunts and lunges at you. LOL. She was such a sweet little thing when we brought her home (isn’t that what they all say?? =P). Specifically why we made the agreement NO MORE BABIES after the Tans… then of course… the boyfriend brings home a baby. I guess I should be happy he didn’t bring home three more – as the Tans nearly drove me to the crazy house when they were all babies.

Hopefully it will – the most important thing is she is eating like a horse and very active. She has shown NO signs of illness as well as has adjusted very well to all the veggies we have given her so far. I just hate seeing anything wrong with any of my furbabies!

[NewBunnyOwner123]

It’s like a slap in the face, huh?! So sweet and then the next day they turn into evil lol I was counting down the days until Sally was able to go to her spay!

Keep us updated on what the vet says! At least she is still eating and active.

[Monkeybun]

Posted By Sarita on 05/07/2013 09:15 AM

Lionheads definitely are only bred for looks (just like any other rabbits) so probably she has some “birth defect” (and I don’t mean that in a mean way) like Dana Krempels suggested in the link. She did also mention that there is no evidence of rabbit’s having hay allergies and mentioned about the environment being well ventilated although that’s not to say she couldn’t have allergies to something but there are no tests for testing rabbits for allergies that I am aware of – I know they do allergy tests with dogs though (and possibly cats).

I need to introduce her to Smudge… who is indeed allergic to timothy hay. There is no official test for it, but my vet had me do a process of elimination thing. Environment chages, nothing. Food changes, nothing. Hay changes… bingo. 

[Sarita]

I guess that’s the test then :~) Process of elimination.

[tanlover14]

MB – that’s crazy! Allergic to timothy hay… haahh! We need her in our house since the BF is already allergic too!

After her appointment tonight – I will show this post to my BF. He usually keeps up to date on anything I post about our buns and their situations but I want to make sure he sees this. Specifically so he can see the humidifer thoughts, Jersey. I agree – I would remove the cause THEN treat the symptoms if nothing was working.

NBO – it really is!! Our sweet little girl – we kept saying how she was such a little angel. So good with her litter. And so playful without being destructive. Then BAM. Demon bunny. LOL. Her red eyes aren’t helping her cause now….

[tanlover14]

So! Nora had her vet visit last night –

Since there was no discharge (or worsening of symptoms – no runny eyes or nose, healthy appetite) he’s pretty sure it’s NOT an infection of some kind. He’s leaning more towards environmental or of course, something stuck WAY up in her nose that has been causing her to sneeze but she’s not able to get it out. They attempted to check farther up and thought about flushing out her nasal passages but she was struggling too much. So when she goes for her spay she will be getting her nasal passages flushed out also. In the meantime, we are going to try the Oxbow bags of hay (to see if the dust is bothering her since the bags have less) and after maybe switch up her litter. And the humidifier idea, all at different times so we can see which is the problem.

He DID send us home with medicine just in case we begin to notice other symptoms of an upper resp. infection – and also said if after trying the environmental and we decide we want to try the medicine again then we’ll have it. He left that open to us really with the pushing of checking environmental first.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I hope the different hay proves to be the solution.

Your bf is so wonderful. Reading all the posts about the bunnies! My husband loves the bunnies but gets bored of my constant talk of them and my “Come see what Olivia/Bindi is doing!” Oh, well. At least he pays the vet bills without grumbling.

[tanlover14]

He is wonderful! =P

It was really shocking to me to see how much he cares about them and how much time/energy he puts into them. Almost every night when I come home from work he’s hanging out with them until I get home. And just how he brought Nora home in general from that horrible pet store. It’s one of those things where you can’t let yourself go in because you can’t save them all… BUT I’m glad we did. She has such a great life now. And she’s getting the care she needs and that’s all that matters in my opinion.. no matter where she came from.

Thanks for the well wishes for her, LPT! =)

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