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BINKYBUNNY FORUMS > BONDING > West and Zeus Bonding Journal - Cancelled.
Last Post by bunnnnnnie! at 2/21/2012 7:37 AM (17 Replies)
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User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 4:03 AM

So I tried introducing the buns this morning.. they did really well last night between the bars, so I thought I could at least give it a try.

West went after Zeus VERY aggressively. .  Growling, biting, even as he was trying to run away she'd chase and try to grab him.  Luckily it was just fur pulling, but I immediately broke it up and seperated them because West was ready to really fight, I've never seen her so aggressive.

Poor Zeus, he's ok but I feel bad for him.  He's just a big loveable guy, he didn't even really try to defend himself, just ran and then immediately demanded out of the pen.  They're seperated now, and both seem ok.  I'm just discouraged it went so badly!  The SECOND West realized they were loose together, she charged him. .

I'm going to not try again at least for another week or two.. but honestly not even sure if I SHOULD try again, as that seemed like a very extreme reaction from West.  What'd you guys think? 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Elrohwen
Hudson Valley, NY
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7322 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 4:34 AM
It's ok! Everybody has some setbacks. Next time use stressing - put them in a laundry basket on the washing machine or take them for a car ride. Sounds like West isn't ready for a face to face meeting but I'm sure you'll get completely different behavior with stressing.

Also, when you do sessions try to end it positively. By that I mean don't end it when West is aggressive. Put them in a laundry basket and shake them around, then pet them both together and then end the session, or something similar. She'll learn that being aggressive gets her shaken around and being calm makes the session end.
- Elrohwen

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 4:41 AM
Posted By Elrohwen on 01/28/2012 07:34 AM
It's ok! Everybody has some setbacks. Next time use stressing - put them in a laundry basket on the washing machine or take them for a car ride. Sounds like West isn't ready for a face to face meeting but I'm sure you'll get completely different behavior with stressing.

Also, when you do sessions try to end it positively. By that I mean don't end it when West is aggressive. Put them in a laundry basket and shake them around, then pet them both together and then end the session, or something similar. She'll learn that being aggressive gets her shaken around and being calm makes the session end.


Thanks for the advice.  I knew I should've tried to end it on a good note, but poor Zeus was just so desperate to get away, and West right on his tail, I couldn't really salvage things. .
 

I'm such a pushover, I really hate to do stressing because it seems "mean".  I know exactly why it's done, and that long-term it's a good method, but I'm a softy and feel bad. .  But it might be my only option.

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Elrohwen
Hudson Valley, NY
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1/28/2012 5:08 AM
Yeah, it's really tough the first couple times. I know Hannah was into chasing and humping Otto and I felt so bad for him and just wanted to protect him. The only stressing I did was quick sessions in the laundry basket while shaking them (I got tired of shaking after 20sec anyway ... haha). It was short but just enough time to break her humping and chasing train of thought and give me some calm moments.

Chasing is so so common - Hannah still chases Otto a few times a week and sometimes pulls hair out - so don't feel too discouraged. Zeus seems like such a nice guy that West will learn quickly enough that she can trust him not to react to her.
- Elrohwen

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 5:17 AM
Posted By Elrohwen on 01/28/2012 08:08 AM
Yeah, it's really tough the first couple times. I know Hannah was into chasing and humping Otto and I felt so bad for him and just wanted to protect him. The only stressing I did was quick sessions in the laundry basket while shaking them (I got tired of shaking after 20sec anyway ... haha). It was short but just enough time to break her humping and chasing train of thought and give me some calm moments.

Chasing is so so common - Hannah still chases Otto a few times a week and sometimes pulls hair out - so don't feel too discouraged. Zeus seems like such a nice guy that West will learn quickly enough that she can trust him not to react to her.


This is exactly how I feel.  .  Good to know I'm not alone!
 

The chasing wasn't really the scary part, it was the growling and 'CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP!' West was doing.  I think if she would've really gotten ahold of him, she would've done some serious damage. 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Elrohwen
Hudson Valley, NY
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7322 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 5:22 AM
Aww, poor bun. Just keep in mind that almost all aggression is fear based - maybe if you remind yourself that she's probably terrified of Zeus it'll help you feel better about the situation. I had some resentment towards Hannah for a while because of the way she treated Otto. In her case she wasn't aggressive, just overly friendly - like she wanted his attention all the time and that sometimes came out as humping and chasing because she had no bunny-to-bunny social skills. In West's case, she probably doesn't trust him and doesn't know how to react, but she'll learn. It's possible that she's being territorial, but since she's new and it's Zeus' territory I would guess it's fear based.
- Elrohwen

User is Offline Sam and Lady's Human
2006 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 5:32 AM
You might try mixing their scents, switch their pens daily or litter boxes etc. Samson loves Lady, but only though the bars. When they are together, she gets super nervous, and more bitey. Lady is just a mush who wants a friend haha. Go slow, pay attention to their body language. Stressing wasn't working for Samson, it was making her more prone to biting and fighting instead of relying on Lady for support, so I've definitely been trying multiple things, lots of treats(bites of banana and craisins) when they do settle, stuff like that. Its slowly getting better

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 5:48 AM
Posted By Elrohwen on 01/28/2012 08:22 AM
Aww, poor bun. Just keep in mind that almost all aggression is fear based - maybe if you remind yourself that she's probably terrified of Zeus it'll help you feel better about the situation. I had some resentment towards Hannah for a while because of the way she treated Otto. In her case she wasn't aggressive, just overly friendly - like she wanted his attention all the time and that sometimes came out as humping and chasing because she had no bunny-to-bunny social skills. In West's case, she probably doesn't trust him and doesn't know how to react, but she'll learn. It's possible that she's being territorial, but since she's new and it's Zeus' territory I would guess it's fear based.

Oh I'm almost certain she's doing it because she's afraid.  While she looks all big and tough when she's being aggressive, I think it's more, "I'm a little bunny, you're big, I'm afraid, so I'm gonna get you before you get me."

I don't resent West at all.  I just want them both to be happy.  Sometimes I really wish we could get just like 5 mins a day where our animals could understand English.  If only I could tell her "He's not going to hurt you, I swear, just give him a chance." 

 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 5:50 AM
Posted By Sam and Lady's Human on 01/28/2012 08:32 AM
You might try mixing their scents, switch their pens daily or litter boxes etc. Samson loves Lady, but only though the bars. When they are together, she gets super nervous, and more bitey. Lady is just a mush who wants a friend haha. Go slow, pay attention to their body language. Stressing wasn't working for Samson, it was making her more prone to biting and fighting instead of relying on Lady for support, so I've definitely been trying multiple things, lots of treats(bites of banana and craisins) when they do settle, stuff like that. Its slowly getting better


Thanks for the input. 
 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Sarita
(Dallas)
Forum Leader
18017 posts Send Private Message
1/28/2012 9:40 AM
Are you in the pen with them? I would suggest you sit down in the pen, maybe that will help reassure her.

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
1/29/2012 3:01 AM
Posted By Sarita on 01/28/2012 12:40 PM
Are you in the pen with them? I would suggest you sit down in the pen, maybe that will help reassure her.


I didn't even have time to get into the pen and sit down before she went after him.  I had one foot in the pen, getting in, when she charged.  But I'll definitely be in the pen next time.

I don't get it.  They can sit literally inches from each other and be totally fine, touch noses even, as long as one of them is in a cage.  But take the cage away and it was war!

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
2/19/2012 5:30 PM

I've cancelled any bonding plans, indefinitely.  West constantly picks fights with Zeus every time she's out of her cage and he's in his.  I think she really just wants to be dominant so she doesn't have to fear him, and Zeus just will not defend himself at all, even when he's on his "turf" in his cage.

Tonight they were fighting through the bars, and before I could break it up West bit Zeus on the bottom of one of his ears.  Luckily it's not deep, but I just can't risk them getting hurt.  It's not worth it to me.  She came up to HIS cage, bit him through the bars, and HE ran away to the other side of his cage.  If he's not going to defend himself then, I don't think he's ever going to.  He's just not that kind of bunny, he's totally non-confrontational.  Mixing that with West's very dominant personality just doesn't seem to work.  I honestly think if I were to try and put them back in together, Zeus would get seriously hurt.

They're okay being "neighbors", they aren't stressed by each other's presence and both enjoy my company and their out of cage time even knowing the other bunny is there.  So I'm not going to worry about it too much.  But ultimately, it's not worth the risk of somebunny getting hurt, and I also think I'm just not experienced enough yet to do a bonding that is this challenging.  .

I'm still glad I got West, and I'm glad Zeus has another bunny in the room when I'm away at work.  Even if it's a bunny he doesn't get along with! 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
2/19/2012 5:32 PM

Oh, and I do find a sort of "twisted humor" in having to protect the 10lb French Lop from the 4lb Netherland Dwarf.   Too bad he can't figure out he could just sit on her, sumo-style! 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Monkeybun
Hillsboro, Oregon
10463 posts Send Private Message
2/19/2012 6:06 PM
Hmm I wonder if maybe time will help. Let them be apart for a few months or so, and try again. Maybe try a meeting at a friends house or something? Some place truly neutral.

User is Offline Sarita
(Dallas)
Forum Leader
18017 posts Send Private Message
2/20/2012 2:27 AM
LOL - these little ones are feisty. I think it's fine to stop bonding and maybe in the future when you move to another place you can take it up again.

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
2/20/2012 5:45 AM

I may try again whenever I move (my parents are moving down here and need me to move back in with them to help maintain the property and pay bills), but I'm really not going to hold my breath on them working out.  For West, pretty much the whole living room isn't her territory, only her cage is.  So I don't think it's territorial behavior.  But who knows, I could be wrong.  Until they stop fighting through the bars, I'm not going to attempt it. 

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!


User is Offline Stickerbunny
3774 posts Send Private Message
2/20/2012 6:20 AM
Don't feel bad about it not working so far, my two are doing something similar - except my baby gate is thick enough they can't bite through the bars, but Stickers tries and thumps and grunts and makes a big fuss whenever she sees Powder now even though they used to be bonded! I think some buns just prefer to have things their own way, with no partner. Kind of like some humans prefer to be bachelors. lol She might change her mind as she gets older and want Zeus' attentions, so keep your eye out for a softening of her heart towards the cute guy!

User is Offline bunnnnnnie!
Illinois
1402 posts Send Private Message
2/21/2012 7:37 AM
Posted By Stickerbunny on 02/20/2012 09:20 AM
Don't feel bad about it not working so far, my two are doing something similar - except my baby gate is thick enough they can't bite through the bars, but Stickers tries and thumps and grunts and makes a big fuss whenever she sees Powder now even though they used to be bonded! I think some buns just prefer to have things their own way, with no partner. Kind of like some humans prefer to be bachelors. lol She might change her mind as she gets older and want Zeus' attentions, so keep your eye out for a softening of her heart towards the cute guy!



 

Yeah if she starts showing signs at any point of WANTING to be with him, and not being aggressive, I'll definitely give it a shot.

He's the floppiest... he's the loppiest... he's King Zeus, the gentle giant French Lop!

She's the fuzziest... she's the wuzziest... she's Little Hera, the spunky Lionhead!

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