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Forum BEHAVIOR Their litter habits are gonna drive me nuts

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    • Stickerbunny
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        Powder was 100% litter trained first day home. For about 7 months.

        Stickers was 100% litter trained after a week home, for about 5 months.

        Bond them – they are about 10% on their litter habits. For 21 days so far. Driving me crazy! lol Right outside the litter box, huge piles and 1-2 pee spots every day now. I have a water proof mat down but how long does it take to get the buns litter habits back? 


      • Sam and Lady's Human
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          I don’t know but I almost feel your pain. Samson was 100% litter trained the day he got home, I didn’t realize how spoiled I was. Lady’s a MESS. Pee everywhere, poop everywhere, I have to clean her pen about 3 times a day with a couple small clean ups in between. AND Samson has started to leave a couple poops around his pen and the house :/


        • Sarita
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            You are going to have to retrain them. They aren’t going to just get their good litter box habits back.


          • DiB
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              I posted a similar problem recently. The good news is that my situation is gradually improving. It’s been about 5 weeks now. The problem is with my female. Only the very occasional pee spot now which I spray with vinegar solution and she doesn’t go back and do it again. She still likes to put poop piles in the cage next to the litter box during the night though. I just sweep them up in the morning with a sigh and clean the litter tray out. I can understand your frustration though. Lola took a day to litter train whereas my buck took weeks. Now he is no problem and she is determined to poop everywhere! Only thing I can think of is that after the bonding, she is dealing with being the submissive bun and is leaving her mark near to where the dominant male is. After being a single bunny for over a year she must be finding the adjustment a bit difficult.


            • jerseygirl
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                I got the post-bonding deterioration of habits too. I won’t say how long it’s been.   Jersey I got as a young bunny and she litter trained straight away. Rumball I’m told had great habits. I got him aged 2 and he did prove to be good with them. He still is generally but Jersey is terrible.


                @DiB
                , do you think overnight one is in the box munching hay and the other on the outside munching hay (and therefore pooping)?

                 

                You are going to have to retrain them. They aren’t going to just get their good litter box habits back.

                Sarita, are you meaning cage or pen in small space until habits improve? This is one thing I never tried with Jersey. Put her in a cage.


              • Stickerbunny
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                  I am putting the droppings into their litter box and cleaning everything up with vinegar, every surface is non-absorbent, so not sure how much more retraining I can do for them. I even moved their hay into the litter box, which they never had before since it wasn’t an issue (after like 10 attempts I found a way that worked). I can’t cage mine, Powder freaks out and spends hours slamming himself against the cage bars and I am too scared he’ll hurt himself. He even jumped as hard as he could into the top of the cage, if there is no roof he climbs if it’s too high to jump. The little guy spent a big chunk of his four years in a cage with NO outside time, so he can’t stand being locked into a cage. I’ve even cleaned things up with natures miracle in case the vinegar wasn’t enough to remove the smell. And they are only allowed out of their room for a few hours as opposed to being free run like normal. Their litter habits are pretty great outside their room, usually.

                  I also took them from two litter boxes to share, up to six, 3 on each spot they picked in case there is a dominance issue that is blocking one from the box.

                  So, not sure what else I can try. They were really, really easy to train (Powder required no training, was trained the first 5 minutes he was in our house and Stickers only took a week) solo. But bonded training isn’t proving easy. lol Not sure if I am just missing something, or they just need a lot more time to sort things out between them.


                • Sam and Lady's Human
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                    Have you had them checked for UTI’s?


                  • jerseygirl
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                      Are they using any of the extra boxes?

                      Have you tried moving the boxes to where they are going on the floor?

                      I also wonder if worth only using the new boxes and removing their original ones. Especially if one was Stickers and one was Powders.

                      Do you go into their new space much? Sometimes I think it’s a case of territoral marking as them as a unit against anyone else or any other pet. Not necessarily against each other. Just a way of them reaffirming their space now that they’re a pair.


                    • Stickerbunny
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                        They were just at the vet for their checkups, so don’t think it’s medical. Started the day I moved them in together, so pretty sure it’s due to their living arrangements changing because of the bond. Their urine is normal, no sludge and not cloudy. And they aren’t having any problems or symptoms.

                        jersey – yep, I’ve moved the boxes, they move just outside the box. Bought more boxes, they just moved outside the box. Cleaned the boxes really well, didn’t help. I had just their new boxes, no old ones, didn’t help. Tried separating their old ones into giving each bunny their own area, didn’t help. They don’t mind sharing a box, they just… don’t care to use the box anymore most the time. I’ve seen them in all the boxes at different times. And they love to pee on non-absorbent surfaces also, who cares if their feet get wet walking through it!

                        I don’t go in there except to feed them and clean up. They come out to play to get pets and such. Stickers is very anti-social in her own area unless I have food. Powder couldn’t care less about territory and he’s friendly anywhere, but Stickers is more like to thump and bite me for being too close to her stuff.


                      • jerseygirl
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                          I read on HRS site once that peeing next to the box can be like underlining a signature. So the box has their smell and is their group latrine but peeing near it emphasises this. Peeing is definitely a communication tool sometimes!

                          I’m thinking maybe try not disturbing the space at all for a while. Only clean when they are well away from it and unaware you’re in there. Maybe leave one box soiled too on add some soiled litter to the fresh box. Hopefully in time they’ll feel the space is sufficiently marked if that is what they’re doing.

                          Not sure if it would help but worth a try. I’m actually at point to trying all this with J&R again.


                        • Stickerbunny
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                            Well… I tried the leaving some of the boxes soiled and cleaning up when they were away. They made a BIGGER mess outside of it. lol

                            I have watched them and they jump in the litter box, use it, jump out. Then the next time they need the box they’ll just go right outside. It doesn’t seem to matter to them, at all which one it is. Hay in, hay out, clean, dirty, etc. I even tried offering a softer litter in some of the boxes and didn’t help. I’ve gone through my 5gal container or vinegar, since I have to scrub the area multiple times a day, need to pick up more. Urgh. They don’t pee outside of it much, but they do leave huge piles of droppings. *frown* They’re not allowed much roam now, since I am trying the enclose them and try to get them to use boxes that way, but it’s not really doing anything either. They only go on the vinyl, at least. If I remove the vinyl, they use the towel under it. If I remove the towel, it’s the floor under that. Something about the outside of the litter boxes having to have their smell on it. And grossly, they then LAY DOWN on the soiled vinyl and cuddle, yuck. lol

                            They aren’t messing any other part of their room. Their soft beds are safe. So I just need to figure out how to make them satisfied that the litter area smells enough like them that they don’t need to mark it beyond using the boxes. Hmm. Maybe the smell I leave behind when I clean makes them need to reassert the territory? In which case, how to clean without leaving my own scent on their territory? *ponder*


                          • LBJ10
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                              Mine had a secret pee spot and I corralled off the area so they couldn’t go there anymore. Much to my surprise, it seems to have taken care of the poop wars as well. No one was peeing in the secret pee spot so no one feels the urge to leave a pile or two. Very strange. Anyway, this is just a thought, but maybe you could try moving the litter box to a new location and then prevent them from visiting this old area using an exercise pen or something. It might just be something about that area.


                            • Stickerbunny
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                                They were in the laundry room and doing it and they have moved to the spare bedroom with hardwood floors now and they still do it, so not about the spot. Was kind of hoping the move would solve it once they got the new room sufficiently smelling like them, but it’s been weeks now and still no luck.

                                Edit: So today I cleaned up the room with vinegar (again) and the vinyl got a once over with natures miracle then rinsed off to be sure ALL scent is gone from it (it also got cleaned with vinegar). The boxes got scrubbed out / changed and there isn’t a single dropping not in their box. I removed two litter boxes and left four – one with soft litter on each side, one with their normal pellet litter on each side. On one side I put soiled litter in the soft litter box, on the other side I put soiiled litter in the pellet litter box. Two of the boxes I left pristine. I also shortened the vinyl so that there is less of it for them to get to.

                                Now, I am  hoping they will show me what they favor and maybe if I go with that, I can get them into their boxes again. I left as little of my scent as I could manage. If they stick to the vinyl… maybe I can shorten it again so there isn’t any sticking out and gradually push them back to their boxes. Risks my wood floors getting a little urine damage, but at this point I am desperate for SOMETHING that even helps a little.

                                Experiment begins! I will let you know if it helps at all. lol


                              • 3 buns mom
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                                  Max was never really caged and he was great with using his litter box 100% of the time. Then I slowly let Chomper(chomper was litter trained while caged) have continuous free roam…and then the trouble started with them not using the box all the time….A few months later, I let Gus free roam and forget it….I am pulling my hair out! Max is still using the box 50%, but the other two never use it anymore. Always peeing and pooping around the box. Even though they are all neutered, they are marking. When I let Foster, my guinea pig out for a few hours, he has his own little area that he likes to hang out…after he goes back to his cage, I notice the buns sniffing near his area and I will notice they will poop near Foster’s area. So I assume they are marking that area as well. It is so frustrating.

                                  I joke with my family that they are just like every other male…They always miss where their supposed to go. lol


                                • Sam and Lady's Human
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                                    Dumb questions, are the boxes big enough? Maybe they prefer a bigger box? What about trying to trick them, put the litter in a large under the bed tupperware (or even the lid for the tub) and then another litterbox with hay in the center of that? (or against the side wall). I’m not much help, Samson was a champ at littler training but even though she’s spayed she’s made a couple marking piles :/ And Lady marks the heck out of her space, fortunately not too much when she’s out int the house though.


                                  • Stickerbunny
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                                      They are the largest cat boxes you can buy from petsmart and one bottom of a “large” pet store cage that Stickers came with – they could both flop out in them together if they so pleased. o.O


                                    • jerseygirl
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                                        Maybe they prefer a bigger box? What about trying to trick them, put the litter in a large under the bed tupperware (or even the lid for the tub) and then another litterbox with hay in the center of that?

                                        i was thinking same thing. Big box and putting hay where they have to be in the box to access it.

                                         

                                        one bottom of a “large” pet store cage that Stickers came with

                                        Could this actually be the problem? It being her old cage? Has this always been present since them becoming a bunny pair?

                                        Also, try using something else instead of vinegar to see they’re not protest pooping because of the smell.

                                        It all makes me wonder about their hormones – even in desexed rabbits. I wonder if being around another bunny causes some rise in hormones and this takes time to level out, just like they do post neuter? Won’t explain whats going on at my place though! :p


                                      • Stickerbunny
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                                          They don’t like hay in their boxes and won’t eat the hay if it’s in there. I have tried racks, boxes, containers, placing it in, scattering it around, they refuse to eat if the hay is near where they’ve soiled, they will literally just go hungry instead. They have hay in a big cardboard box and they don’t make a mess when they eat there. They’re weird rabbits.

                                          Hmm, didn’t think vinegar might be the problem, i’ve used it when they were solo and they didn’t mind it then, but I guess anything can set off a pair. What would work to descent an area of their marking besides vinegar?

                                          I can’t get any larger litter boxes, without making them myself, they won’t crawl into anything with high walls (they won’t even go into a cardboard box hidey hut, or any hidey hut) so it would need to be something long, wide and rather flat. Hrm. XLarge: 22.5”L x 16.7”W x 6.7”H <– that is the current size of their litter boxes, if you think they need to be bigger, what dimensions would you suggest?

                                          The cage bottom has been present, but it hasn’t been her home since she came to our house (it was one of those miserably tiny pet store cages, barely fit her and she came to us at 3lbs). It was cleaned with all the descenters and I took just the bottom and they mark beyond just outside of it, do you think it would cause them to mark the opposite side of the room from where it was at? I can remove it, but it’s the largest thing I have for a litter box.

                                          And yes, bonding seems to make them hormonal all over again. lol


                                        • Sam and Lady's Human
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                                            Are they free-range or caged? I’m wondering if you should try to go back to basics, shrink their space until they conquer that, then expand and so on…


                                          • Stickerbunny
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                                              They have a room, but I am not letting them roam around the house. They can’t be caged, since Powder freaks out and will hurt himself (he slams into the cage bars, chews them, jumps into the roof, climbs.. basically goes into a panic attack), he hasn’t ever been able to be caged, I tried to have a night time cage for him when we first got him but quickly gave up that idea ( tried 3 different versions of a cage ). X-pens without a roof he just climbs if he can’t jump over, with a roof he slams his face into the top trying to pop the roof off. Poor little guy does not have good experiences with cages, being a rescue and the 6 months he spent in the little metal cage at the shelter with practically no human or rabbit interaction didn’t help him (people in town are apparently scared of red eyes, bleh and the shelter workers didn’t have time for him). His muscles were weak enough from lack of exercise when I got him that running across our living room exhausted him and caused a flop out sleep session with panting. Now he’s a little strong sprinter that tires ME out, but has a severe phobia of cages. So, they are as confined as I can safely make them.

                                              My little experiment concluded and so far the results are: They did go outside their boxes, but they did keep it confined to the vinyl… if I just flat out remove it they just go where it used to be, but apparently shortening it gradually does limit the mess area, bonus. On one side of the room, they used the soft litter, on the other side of the room, they used hard litter, so that isn’t much help in figuring out what they prefer. Both have used both, their droppings are different sizes, so I can tell them apart (yes I am examining rabbit droppings, people would find me odd). They remark as soon as I clean, so it seems territorial. I’ll try removing the cage bottom and see if that helps, there has to be something triggering it lol I wish they could just talk and tell me how they wanted it done.

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                                          Forum BEHAVIOR Their litter habits are gonna drive me nuts