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Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Fiver in Stasis? Or bloat? – UPDATE- Doing better!

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    • MimzMum
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        I just got back from the ER vet (who admits she knows little about rabbits except what she read online before I got there with him) as Fiver had a very distended stomach about midnite and simethicone didn’t seem to have an effect like it usually does.

        They gave him buprenorphine, xrayed him and found no obstruction or twist (although once again, we’re not dealing with an exotics vet, but she was all I had) but there’s no sign of gas either. His gut looks full from front to back.

        They gave him fluids subq, gave me metacam to take home (he’s supposed to get .35 ml even though he’s just had the buprenophine?) and the vet also put some reglan in his IV.

        He left a few poos while there, but is not interested in eating or drinking, he is very hunched and seems terribly pained to me. I am not sure he will make it through the night, honestly. I’ve never seen him this distended before.

        He just ate the head off a dandelion, but other than that is hunched in a corner of his night pen and looking like he wants to fade off into the ethers. My vet doesn’t get in for hours yet and I doubt my hubby will want to drag us back in there, (he’s got other things to do), but I was told if Fiver wasn’t eating by tonight he should see his regular vet.

        I’m guessing if it is bloat and the vet didn’t recognize it, he won’t make it that long. I feel so stupid for not knowing more about this condition after what happened to my dogs, or at least having a home line for my regular vet. I only did what I thought was best for him. He really seemed much better there, before they put in the IV…maybe he’s just too cold or in shock?

        Does anyone know what else I should be looking for? I am so frazzled right now…been working on getting all my files off my computer…now I’m glad it isn’t in the shop yet…but poor Fiver. He doesn’t look good to me. I can’t think straight about what to do.

        Help?


      • MimzMum
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          Just a quick update…he’s still hunched, but ate the dandelion leaf I left for him and is now nibbling, albeit very tiny nibbles, on his hay. So I’m trying to be optimistic…but damn…this is a scary night for me.
          And I though I had a sensitive stomach…these three buns put me to shame!


        • Sarita
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            Did the vet take him temperature? Bloat is treated much the same as stasis and it sounds like that’s how they are treating it.

            Vibes to Fiver.


          • MimzMum
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              No she didn’t, I even asked if they would and she declined. Like I said, not an exotics vet. But better than nothing. At least I had some idea what to ask for, and had to insist on all of it.
              I’m figuring maybe just a nice blanket for him to help warm him a bit. He’s a little more animated, but still seems uncomfortable…should I go ahead and administer the metacam?


            • Sarita
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                Well, he got the buprenex which is a heavy duty painkiller so I wouldn’t think he would need the metacam. I think buprenex is good for 12 hours. I would keep him warm though.

                How can you tell his stomach was distended?

                The sub-q’s will also give him the feeling of fullness.


              • MimzMum
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                  He was pressing his belly to the floor of his pen, as he did the last time he had stasis, and hadn’t eaten or drank any water…except this time when I felt his tummy his ribs were being pushed out on either side of his abdomen and the stomach felt almost rock hard to the touch and seemed stretched laterally across his chest area. Nothing seemed to be in hie lower gut, it was almost flaccid. I’ve never felt his stomach get that firm before and it scared me.
                  I’ll hold off on the metacam for now, I don’t know if I can trust what the vet said about having it and the buprenorphine in at the same time. Although I think they use that combo during anesthesia.I don’t want him so dopey he doesn’t eat or drink.
                  He still seems uncomfortable, but he did nibble some more hay and ate the stem of his dandelion. He currently snuggled into a cuddly cup, but in a stiff posture.
                  Poor little guy.


                • Sarita
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                    It is okay to do both – I’ve done it many times for my rabbits who needed it. I don’t find that metacam will make a rabbit dopey.


                  • Elrohwen
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                      Vibes to Fiver!! I hope he’s feeling better this morning.


                    • MimzMum
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                        Well he’s in a nicer posture in the cuddly cup now, but his eyes are wide open, so he’s not able to sleep or even look very rested. I think I’m going to try to get a little sleep myself, though I doubt I’ll be successful…maybe a touch of metacam would help him…just not the .35 ml they wanted me to give…in the past his vet gives him no more than .2 ml and this was another thing this vet got off the internet was the dosage.

                        Thanks for the vibes everyone. Sarita, Elrohwen, it’s so comforting to have your input. Thanks for being on so early in the AM.
                        I’ll shut off for now, but if anything changes I’ll be back in. Going to have to try to call his regular vet though and let her know we may be in later if he’s not improved…though I hate to put him back in the car and stress him any more.


                      • RabbitPam
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                          I’m sorry I just read this now, MM. Was up early but had to be out of the house at 8AM, so didn’t log on.
                          I would go with Sarita’s suggestion and give him some of the metacam. Even if it just makes him more comfortable and a bit sleepy, they have been known to release gas or indigestion while napping so it won’t do him any harm to doze either.

                          Very glad you’ll be in touch with his vet soon. would he let you give him gentle tummy massage? Or is he better off being left to hunker down? (He’ll tell you if it feels good to him.)
                          I’m imagining a rather dramatic release of poos, hard or soft, and a quick recovery, so I hope that’s all that’s going on. (Or a sudden fragrance in the air.) Keep us posted if you can be back on line later.
                          {{{{{{{{{{{{{Healing vibes in the meantime}}}}}}}}}}}}


                        • jerseygirl
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                            {{{{{Fiver!}}}}}

                            MM, it’s good he’s interested in eating a little.

                            You mention sub-q’s and IV. Was he given fluids both ways?


                          • MimzMum
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                              Checking in, it’s about 1:30PM my time.

                              Well he drank a little water out of his bowl after I signed off, plus the fluids he had last night are not completely drained today, but most are gone. He has signs of his nose being wet which he never usually does. I’m hoping it’s just from having drank from a crock, or that maybe it’s a result of his being chilled last night. His eyes look a bit brighter, but he still seems pained, so .2ml of metacam just now.

                              He will eat the Oxbow meadow hay, but not his timothy. The Kaytee is just too stalky and he only wants the soft bits out of it and seedheads. He didn’t make much of a dent in his basket last night and usually it’s all gone and the stalks discarded by morning. So I tried the meadow today and he’ll eat that, but not a lot. He still looks hunched, but let me dose him (with his usual protestations only slightly diminished) and he nibbled some red leaf lettuce. I may give syringe water and simethicone over the day today.

                              I feel terrible that he’s uncomfortable. I have to admit a bit of mea culpa today, as I was worried about his continuing dysbiosis and gave him a touch of oat to eat yesterday…apparently even a SMALL amount is enough to block him up from one end to the other, and now he’s not as interested in drinking. There were poops today, hard ones to be sure because I couldn’t pinch them in my fingers, but a smattering. Some quite tiny. However, he hasn’t peed and if that continues it’ll be a worry. Will definitely try to get him to take fluids by mouth today, and although I usually do massage, Pam, I was concerned with his very tight gut last night and feared doing more harm than good. We’ll see how turgid it is today and I’ll try again if not.

                              Since he’s picking through the hay, despite the fact that it’s lesser quality and too many hard parts, I’m assuming his teeth have begun to cause trouble again. My vet is not in today, but will be tomorrow. Unless he goes far south tonight, I’ll wait to talk to her and see if she wants to do another round of fluid, possibly schedule for a future tooth filing or at least a visit so she can review the xray and evaluate him. I’m disturbed how severely the subq’s chill him, I don’t want to make him further ill if we can get away with syringe by mouth. He wasn’t having it last night, but today he will squirm and jump away, but eventually put up with something stuck in his mouth.
                              (Sorry Jerz…I call it IV fluid because they hang the bag and that’s what I was used to in cancer treatment…it was subcutaneous fluids…I was too mixed up to think clearly last night.)

                              So I should continue to get him to eat, hay or veggies? How about dandelion? I know it’s a diuretic and don’t want to evacuate his fluids too soon, but I also want to see some pee in that box.

                              Poor bub. I feel like such a failure as a bun mum. I did get a little kip, but the whole time dreamed of caring for someone’s preemie child and doing a crap job of it. I can see I won’t get away from the situation even in the land of Nod. >.<

                              Thanks for the support and vibes everyone. We’ll keep you posted as I think the PC will not go to it’s own doctor for awhile now (got a lot of data off yesterday and feel better about waiting…plus the almost $300 vet ER charge took a bit of the new computer buying wind out of my sails.)


                            • LittlePuffyTail
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                                I’m so sorry Mimz…Poor Fiver. At least he’s eating a little bit and drinking. Those are good signs. I would let him eat whatever he is willing to eat. Anything to get his belly moving normally is good.

                                That’s awful that you have a $300.00 vet bill with someone who knew nothing about rabbits. I’ve been there before too.

                                Keep us updated. You’ll both be in my thoughts tonight.

                                (((((((Mimzy))))))))


                              • Dee
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                                  Hi Mimz- I hope Fiver is doing better. As everyone else has said, the fact that he’s eating and drinking is great. Anything he takes in will help keep his gut moving. And the drinking is really good- I read that bunnies often stop drinking altogether with GI symptoms. I know BunBun wouldn’t touch his water.
                                  I know what you mean about the sub Q fluids chilling Fiver- Bun used to get them at the vet’s and he would be shivering so badly it scared me. I learned that if you dip the IV line in warm water- not the part that attaches to the bag or the needle because that must be sterile- it warms up the fluids as they go in and it helps a lot. I don’t know if the vet would be willing to do that, but it’s worth a shot and good to know if you have to administer them at home.
                                  Oh, I really hope things keep improving for Fiver- you have been through so much with him. Every time I read about him being sick, my heart just goes out to you. You really are amazing with him- you care for him so tirelessly. I know how stressful it is, and how impossible it is to relax and rest even when you know you need to. I had all kinds of crazy dreams through all my pets illnesses.
                                  {{{{{healthy vibes to Fiver and peaceful vibes to you}}}}}


                                • Malp_15
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                                    We have an incubator at work to warm iv bags and a special insulated bag to hang it I’m to keep it warm after. Maybe ask if they have something like that?


                                  • Sarita
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                                      Learning to do sub-q’s is not hard at all as long as you have enough skin to tent and insert the needle, it’s not difficult. I have a hard time doing sub-q’s with thin or smaller rabbits though, that is a challenge. Basically, it’s the sharp prick of the needle at the beginning that is uncomfortable for the rabbit but the discomfort seems to reside quickly.


                                    • MimzMum
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                                        I’d have to have my hubby learn to do them. I’m afraid I just go to pieces at the sight of needles, even after all this time. 0_o Maybe someday it will get better for me, but until my hand stays steady, I will be useless when it comes to this. I’m real good at the assisting, but my doctoring skills are …..
                                        I was wondering how they can use only part of a bag of fluid and then pack up the rest for another patient. As long as the bag is sterile the solution is good to go for next time? And the warming tip I should’ve remembered from my days in the chemo room. >.<

                                        As of about 2:30-3 PM today, we have wee in the box! *happy dance* And he is definitely preferring the meadow grass, so I’ll keep up with that.
                                        He was listing to his left earlier, which I took to mean that the right side (where the vet listens to the stomach) was paining him or maybe something was finally moving through. But now he is laying flatter and more in his usual comfy position with one leg stuck out in an L shape. His face looks more relieved and I just keep adding the lettuce and other greens to his floor until he’s had enough of them. He is eating meadow hay now. Things are going in and coming out, this is always good! ^_^

                                        So, I think I’m going to grab a catnap. I am still wiped after only about 5 hours sleep and none of it straight through. Been up till 4 AM all week making data copies and the fatigue is setting in with a vengeance. We’ll update again later tonight, but I think we may have dodged the bullet again.
                                        Thanks for all your vibes and tips everyone. I can’t tell you how thankful I am to be able to post here, you all have saved my hide bunny-wise more than once! Cheers!


                                      • BinkyBunny
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                                          Wow…how stressful. I’m so sorry, and I hope you got some sleep by now. I am glad the Fiver is feeling better…WHEW! I am sending continued healing vibes. As far as your question about the bag being used for another patient, I know that with Jack, we change the needle every single time, and I can’t really see how the fluid itself could become contaminated since the bag goes to a line, doesn’t allow air to get back into the bag. Just the needle and needle attachment needs to be changed. Now I don’t know this 100%, I am saying this based on our experience of using Sub-1 fluids with Jack for the last year or so.

                                          HUGS to you.

                                          And at least you did have a vet (even if not rabbit savvy) offer meds that may help relieve discomfort and it is possible for bunnies to get a little “twist” where their stomach meets their intestine (though many times just moving around can help solve that), but…sometimes not, so the vet wasn’t completely out of left field.   I’m sorry though about what it did to your computer fund.    ugh!!


                                        • LittlePuffyTail
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                                            Very glad to hear he’s feeling a bit better! (((((Happy Weekend Vibes))))))) Hope you all have a great weekend together and that he gets back 100% to his normal, adorable self.

                                            I’d have to have my hubby learn to do them.

                                            That’s what I did! Ricky does a really good job of it too. It’s very reassuring to know that he can do it if necessary. I just can’t stick a needle in my bunny. I’m super queasy. I was able to make out okay when I had to give my cat insulin shots and I’ve given horse’s needles before but bunnies are just so little, I’m too scared to do it.

                                            I can’t tell you how thankful I am to be able to post here

                                            I feel the same way. It’s wonderfully reassuring to know there are people to help you get through things like this.


                                          • MimzMum
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                                              Well BB, I have to admit that sometimes any vet is better than no vet at all. I would not have been able to force fluids by mouth in Fiver because he barely accepted the simethicone, I was afraid it would dribble out of the other side of his mouth. So when I checked his belly and it felt like he’d swallowed one of those children’s rubber mini footballs in his rib cage area, I just figured, get him in the car, get there as fast as I can. In the extreme, if he was going into torsion and there was no hope, I could see him pass peacefully instead of languishing.
                                              Yeah, I can think of an instance where someone would not give pain meds to Fiver after a dental. I don’t put up with that anymore. If something can be done safely, do it. Don’t mess with me.
                                              And at least three people got their educations enhanced by caring for a sick bunny that nite…so.

                                              I told hubby on the way, ‘We don’t have an exotics on call tonight’ and he almost turned the car around, but I told him we at least had to get Fiver some fluids and maybe motility drugs if indicated, and he would need an xray so we could be sure there was no obstruction, in which motility drugs would be unusable. So even though he shook his head the whole way and was a cranky son of a gun, understandably at 1 in the morning after an already hard day, I have to applaud that he went with my wishes. It was just hard thinking Fiver was in worse shape than I thought the whole way and wondering how I was going to explain it to Mimzy if I’d lost him.

                                              I did say I was going to drive myself, but he wouldn’t allow me to. He worries I’d fall asleep at the wheel at that hour, Fiver might suddenly get worse and I’d panic and have an accident, or at the least, speed and get a ticket. Can’t have that. Of course…let’s not talk about speeding when it comes to the hub.

                                              Truly, if I hadn’t been on this site for the last three years, I’d have been as lost as the vet was when I brought him in. I have you guys to thank for my rabbit knowledge.
                                              And it was comforting knowing the doc HAD been online to one of her vet sites, getting as much read up as possible to help him as best she could. I don’t fault her for this not being her specialty, but yeah, the irony that perhaps we were both going into this with the same amount of ammo, well…it was ironic in a sad sort of way. But she has years of actual hands on with other pets that I don’t and their anatomical specifics to boot…so yeah…it was worth the $300, despite it all.

                                              He is good today but for that his dysbiosis is back to it’s old levels. So I have questions:
                                              I was surprised upon allowing him time out on the bed last night to see his fluid wasn’t actually all gone and one side of his armpit area at least was still quite baggy. So perhaps I overdid the lettuce, but I wanted him eating either way, so I’m not too worried, but…
                                              For one, I don’t know if he’s trying to eat cecotrophes and then washing his paws…but his front feet are smeared on the top with brown color. I can’t tell if he gets that from lying in cecal juice or what.
                                              His strict diet of timothy hay is out the window for now, but I’m supplementing him with Oxbow Meadow grass (Mimzy has lost interest for the moment) and I notice it says 30% crude fiber max on the bag…shouldn’t that be enough fiber to keep his insides, and cecum in particular, healthy? He ate 3rd cut timothy for over a year before starting to have troubles with his cecals…the meadow hay is much the same texture and at least he eats it all! More than I could say for the timmy. As long as SOMETHING is going in and coming out…can he survive off this stuff and, even if the dysbiosis goes on, could it maybe straighten him out eventually if it’s all he eats for at least 6 weeks, like what we were supposed to do with the timothy hay?
                                              I would think fiber is fiber. But his vet wants him on grass hay…so…am I an idiot to think the meadow grass will do? Grass is hay is hay is grass…right?

                                              I did leave a message for my vet yesterday, but she hasn’t called yet. I’m hoping to talk to her this weekend if she has the chance.

                                              I think the best thing is to see him responsive again, interested in my approach, lounging in comfort and no longer stiff and sullen. I think even Pippi was worried about him yesterday when we came home, because while I cleaned her pen she would not keep her nose inside the door, and even after getting her cookie, sat there without eating it and demanded noserubs for a good 5 minutes. Completely uncharacteristic for her.
                                              Mimzy is, of course, completely jealous that Fiver is getting all the attention. We’re back to throwing the litterbox first thing again…for hours. >.< Uppity bunnies = life is good. ^_^


                                            • BinkyBunny
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                                                Posted By MimzMum on 06/18/2011 05:02 PM

                                                If something can be done safely, do it. Don’t mess with me.

                                                Haha…good for you!

                                                So even though he shook his head the whole way and was a cranky son of a gun, understandably at 1 in the morning after an already hard day, I have to applaud that he went with my wishes. I did say I was going to drive myself, but he wouldn’t allow me to. He worries I’d fall asleep at the wheel at that hour, Fiver might suddenly get worse and I’d panic and have an accident, or at the least, speed and get a ticket. Can’t have that. Of course..

                                                Now that’s love.

                                                I was surprised upon allowing him time out on the bed last night to see his fluid wasn’t actually all gone and one side of his armpit area at least was still quite baggy.

                                                When Jack didnt’ move around much on the evenings after he got his sub-q fluids, it would  pool up in the same place (by his armpit–leg pit….ya know) The fact that he is eating more Meadow than he did with Timothy means he is getting more fiber in anyway. Jack never really liked Timothy — so they get Orchard. I think the Meadow is fine since it is getting the fiber in him! I’m glad to hear that things Mimz seems to be getting better. Sending continued healing vibes.


                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                  And at least you did have a vet (even if not rabbit savvy) offer meds that may help relieve discomfort and it is possible for bunnies to get a little “twist” where their stomach meets their intestine (though many times just moving around can help solve that), but…sometimes not, so the vet wasn’t completely out of left field

                                                  I agree. Pain relief and fluids are the 1st steps to stabilise so that was good. I’m glad others brought up warming the fluids. Def would help if they’re under ideal body temp. Giving fluid IV would help too in that case as they absorb better. Looks like the subq’s, meds and your care help turned Fiver around though. Hooray!


                                                • Dee
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                                                    I’m so happy he’s doing better- it just made my day to see your update . Hopefully you can catch up on your sleep a bit soon- you are one devoted bunny slave/nurse!


                                                  • Michelle&Lolli
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                                                      Mimzy is, of course, completely jealous that Fiver is getting all the attention. We’re back to throwing the litterbox first thing again…for hours.

                                                      Ah those loppy’s and their attitudes! Made me chuckle. Eddie never threw anything but he DEFINITELY let me know in no uncertain terms when he was jealous, angry, etc.

                                                      I am so glad Fiver is doing better! I didn’t see this until just now but I will continue to sends vibes and thoughts and prayer for your whole family!


                                                    • RabbitPam
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                                                        So glad to hear Fiver’s doing better and Mimzy is feisty about it.

                                                        I think I’d be nervous about the grass and order the bunny kind (like BB’s orchard grass which is very soft and nice). You should talk your vet into stocking up on Oxbow products so you can get them once in a while. They used to only sell via vets’ offices before the over-priced big box pet stores got a hold of them. Very convenient when you didn’t have time to wait for an order by shipping.

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                                                    Forum HOUSE RABBIT Q & A Fiver in Stasis? Or bloat? – UPDATE- Doing better!