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Forum DIET & CARE Not eating pellets … UPDATE: Pasteurella – can’t feed Critical Care

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    • Otti
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         Hi everyone,

        So last week I bought a new bag of Oxbow regular pellets that I’ve been feeding Sammy for months now. I think that his change in pellet behavior started when I opened the new bag, but it’s possible it might have slightly preceded it. His veggie eating has remained the same (he still inhales his morning and evening portions) but it’s possible that his hay consumption is also decreasing.

        Anyways, more or less since I got this new bag, he started at first taking longer to get through his pellets. I give him 1/4 cup of pellets per day (he’s about 8 months now) but he never eats it all, he eats about 3/4ths of it normally in one day. After I opened the new bag, he seemed to be taking 2 days to finish the same amount of pellets, so he was eating them, but more slowly. 

        Last night though, I noticed that most if not all of his pellets from the prior night were still in his bowl (I usually refill at night). I decided to leave them there till the morning to see if he would eat them eventually. This morning it seemed maybe he ate a few, but most if not all of them were still there. 

        I emptied and refilled his pellet bowl and gave him his veggies (which he ate normally).

        Now my first instinct from what I’ve learned on this site would be to think that either the pellets have something weird about them, or that he is having teeth issues. Regarding the pellets having something weird about them, it’s strange that it also seems that his hay consumption is decreasing but i’m not 100% sure about that. I changed his hay this morning and gave him slightly less so that I can monitor his consumption more clearly when I get home tonight.

        Regarding possible teeth issues, that also seems weird because he had a vet appointment this past Saturday because I was scared one of his teeth might be chipped, and the vet thoroughly checked his teeth and jaw and said nothing was out of the ordinary and that his alignment and teeth looked good. Also, he is still chewing on stuff like the carpet or straw  mats that i have around (he basically demolished the corner of a straw mat last night trying to get at the carpet) so it doesn’t seem like he’s in pain to be able to do that.

        Should I get a new bag of pellets and see? Any other suggestions?

        Thanks in advance for any help!


      • Sarita
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          I would say it’s more a change in metabolism than teeth. I would think he would be too young for usual dental problems unless he had malocclusion (unless a lop or dwarf).

          As for chewing on things – sometimes they will chew on things more when they have dental pain or drink more water. There would be a number of things that would be a sign.

          I would just monitor him at this point especially since the vet didn’t see any molar points unless they are way in the back of the mouth.


        • Otti
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            Hmmm I didn’t think of the metabolism thing… yeah I’ll keep monitoring him in the next few days. He seems okay otherwise (energetic, affectionate, no loud pain tooth purring just lots of happy pet tooth purring) so it shouldn’t be anything urgent either way I guess.


          • RabbitPam
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              Since it’s possible to overfeed pellets, but fewer is never a problem, I think I would just cut them back to 1/8 cup at each feeding and see if they go then.
              As long as you are seeing the hay consumed, and he’s chewing on things with a clean vet bill of health, I don’t think there’s any harm in diminished interest in pellets. It’s much more serious if it’s hay. Give him a carrot as a treat to make sure he doesn’t have any tooth pain that just happened, so you can see him chew something else and tasty. If he goes for it normally, I think it’s not a serious issue. Watch for normal poos and pee, too, just in case.


            • LBJ10
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                Leopold starting losing interest in pellets around that age. He wouldn’t finish it all, so I simply started giving him less.


              • Beka27
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                  Since he just had a thorough dental exam, is it possible the vet abraded the tissue and he has a sore area in his mouth? Maybe the pellets are bothering him a bit. Gingival tissue can puncture rather easily, but it is also rapidly repairing, usually within 2 weeks. Keep an eye on him and see how he does.


                • RabbitPam
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                    LOL Beka. Can you tell she’s been in dental school this year?


                  • Otti
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                      Hmmm the gingival tissue thing is interesting. I guess I won’t worry about him eating less pellets, but it still seems from my monitoring that in the last 2 or 3 days he’s been eating much less hay, barely none.

                      He ate a soft piece of hay I put in front of his mouth yesterday, but he tried to eat another harder one, and he put it in his mouth, chewed and then eventually spit it out… That would seem like teeth issues but he’s still eating some pellets, eating his veggies, pulling up carpet any chance he can get (which is usual), and he had that dental-specific vet exam that went well.

                      When should I worry about his much-decreased hay consumption? I’m changing it every day to try to make it more appealing. The recent decrease in consumption did not coincide with the opening of a new bale, I was mid-bale, so I don’t think it can have to do with the hay itself since he was eating it normally before. He is shedding right now, so that’s an added worry. He still pulls the sides of his cage as normal… so not sure if he would do that if he had a toothache. I get that sometimes when their teeth hurt they chew on stuff more, but his chewing on stuff (pen, carpet) has stayed at a normal level for him.

                      Anything else I can do to get him to eat more hay? He’ll eat the hay topper (dried flowers) but I think he just picks it out. I’ll try again with that tonight.

                      Also another thing I noticed, yesterday when i changed his litter he went on what seemed like a carefresh (blue) eating-frenzy. I say seemed because I wasn’t sure if he was actually eating it, but it definitely seemed like it. It lasted maybe a minute because I stopped him, and he didn’t do it after, but that’s weird. He’s never done that before. It seemed he was trying to eat as much as possible in as little as possible. He’s so weird.

                      Oh sorry! Also just saw the carrot idea, I’ll try that tonight, thanks!


                    • Sarita
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                        Usually with spurs it’s not necessarily the teeth that hurt but the gums or tongue that the spur is poking into. Is he doing weird things with his mouth…sometimes that can be a sign as well.

                        I think as far as consumption of anything you will see that sometimes they will eat more than others – the daylight is getting longer here where I live and I know the change in seasons cause changes in behaviors.

                        It wouldn’t hurt to have the vet check again if you still feel he isn’t eating as normally does.


                      • Otti
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                          Hmmm thanks Sarita. The thing with him is he tooth purrs so much – constantly when I’m petting him, and lots of times even when I’m just looking at him, or he’s just happy to be in his warm bed lol – so it’s hard to tell when he’s just doing his happy tooth purring and when he’s being weird. The frequent tooth purring is definitely of the soft kind, and from my memory it has been increasing, but not in coincidence with the change in eating patterns. Maybe since a month before that. I thought it was just because we’ve bonded more. Last night all he did was beg for pets lol and fennel, not always in that order.

                           

                          I’m probably just over-reacting. The vet seemed to think so. She didn’t even let me pay for the exam because she thought he was completely healthy.

                           

                          The other thing, if it’s relevant, is that he has also been sneezing more frequently – a couple times an hour. Usually this is without any drippiness or wetness on his nose, but occasionally his nose is slightly wet. I told the vet and she said rabbit’s get allergies just like us and it was probably related to environmental factors. She said only to worry if he had a wet nose frequently, especially if it was a weird color. 


                        • RabbitPam
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                            If you hadn’t seen and described all this to your vet I would be recommending you take him to one. I’m a little puzzled, since eating less and a runny nose and sneezing could indicate something totally different than a tooth problem. Just continue to watch him. Make sure there’s no change in his poos, like smaller or stringy. It may be a gut issue or a cold. Just can’t tell yet.


                          • Sarita
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                              Well, I’m sneezing alot more frequently as well – it seems like the weather is changing and stuff is going to start blooming – at least where I am. So it could be environmental. I wouldn’t worry about a slightly wet nose.

                              This is probably the first (almost) spring you’ve really had him and the days are getting longer so we are all adjusting to the change in daylight and stuff.


                            • Otti
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                                Yeah, it is the first spring I’ve had him… Maybe that’s just it I described his fall and possible tooth chip and his runny nose to the vet, but his eating less pellets and hay became more pronounced after – just in the past few days – so I didn’t tell her that. He’s still inhaling his greens and his poo has not changed significantly so far.

                                I will keep monitoring him. Thanks for understanding me if I’m being a bit crazy LOL I feel bad for my future kids


                              • Otti
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                                  Okay I’m back with a quick update and new question.

                                  So Sammy’s eating was still less than usual most of today, but he ate all of his greens tonight, and he’s pooping normally and eating his cecals, so I think digestion-wise he’s doing at least okay if not well.

                                  His sneezing however got much more frequent today. He has sneezing attacks, of 5 or 6 at a time, and he can have them several times an hour. Sometimes, he seems to get into a sneezing fit where he sneeze very frequently over a 10 minute period or so. His nose is only very slightly wet occasionally, but mostly it’s dry. His sneezes also sound dry, more like snorts than actual sneezes.

                                  He’s acting normally, alert, affectionate, seems happy. I called the vet today when his eating was still off and his sneezing had also increased, and she said that unless he’s eating less than half what he normally does and/or has significant nasal discharge or nasal discharge that is not clear but white/green etc., that it shouldn’t be necessary to bring him. She says it’s most likely the weather change giving him a mild cold or allergies.

                                  I’m torn on whether i should bring him to the vet tomorrow, since his sneezing is starting to get more frequent, even just in the last few hours. I don’t want to over-react… Has anyone had bunnies who had this kind of very frequent but mostly dry sneezing, and what was your experience with it?


                                • Otti
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                                    Okay, so took Sammy to the vet and turns out he has pasteurella. The vet gave him an injection of sub Q fluids (which he’s still absorbing) and an injection of baytril. I’m going to pick up the baytril I’ll be giving him by mouth tomorrow (pharmacy was closed today) and in the meantime the vet said I should feed Sammy Critical Care (about 6 tbsps over 2 or 3 feedings a day) because he lost 5 ounces just in the past week (he used to be 4 pounds 5 ounces and is now 4 pounds).

                                    Sammy however is a demon bunny with regard to being picked up, held, in any way restrained. I have found out he is definitely NOT a fan of the critical care. I tried mixing it with banana to see if he’d like it better but he still runs for his life from it. I’ve been trying to bunny burrito him, hold him between my knees, anything I can think of, but he’s super squirmy and little so he keeps getting away. He seems pretty pissed at me, so I’m not sure what I should do.

                                    He ate maybe a whole leaf of romaine this morning around 11PM but nothing else. Any tips on bunny burrito-ing, holding a kicking squirming bunny or making the critical care more appetizing?

                                    I’m going to try to see if he’ll eat parsely just so his stomach keeps working.


                                  • jerseygirl
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                                      Hi Otti, i’m sorry to hear this development.

                                      You might have some luck feeding him his pellets in a mush form instead of the criticare. This is from a Stasis article.
                                       

                                      Microwaved pellet mixes. In a small bowl, add about 1-2 tablespoons of your rabbit’s pellets and enough water to cover them, with a tiny bit to spare. Microwave for 15-20 seconds, until water is absorbed and pellets are puffed almost completely apart (looks a bit like fluffed rice). Fluff with fork an allow to cool until luke- warm and give to bunny. Often the aroma will entice bunny to eat.
                                      Sometimes adding a bit of sugar-free applesauce or sugar-free fruit juice to the pellet mix will entice bunny. Ask your vet if this is okay in your rabbit’s specific case, as sometimes sugary fruits can add to an existing problem. http://www.mybunny.org/info/gi_stasis.htm

                                      If he’s eating veg on his own, he might try eat pellets in this form on his own also. Let’s hope. You might even be able to start mixing a little of the criti care with it.  By Microwaving, you may lose some of the vitamin content but it will still give the fibre. The veggies will be providing the other nutrition.

                                      I wouldn’t be surprised if the teeth are still involved in this. His going off pellets then hay but eating some litter seems to me it was his way of getting some fibre?
                                      I agree he seems too young but you never know…may be some xrays to see if anything is going on with his molar roots?
                                      (((Vibes))) for your Sesame!


                                    • Otti
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                                        Thanks jerseygirl! I’ll try the pellet thing next.

                                        He actually ate one syringe of the critical care mixed with banana but this is how -> I had some on my leggings accidentally from the scuffle, and he licked that off, then he went to eat more off of a corner of his floor towel where it got mashed in (also during the scuffle). So I tried mashing more into that corner of the towel, and he ate it greedily! He’s so weird! So I just kept spreading it on the towel, and he kept cleaning it up. It’s probably just his OCDness paying off… he doesn’t want his towel to be dirty LOL That stinker acted like it was poison when it was in the syringe but apparently he actually doesn’t think it’s gross.

                                        He won’t eat anymore now though, so I’ll still try the pellet thing. He also ate a leaf of kale just now. He has chalky urine issues (not full-blown sludge) so I’m not sure if the advantage of him actually eating the kale is worth the possibility that the calcium might affect him… not sure if I should give him more kale. I also have some red chard and some broccoli.


                                      • jerseygirl
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                                          In that case, you might be able to put the criti care in a shallow dish for him. Or sprinkle the powder on some greens if it can be given that way.


                                        • Otti
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                                            I put the critical care and banana in a bowl but so far not so good. I might have to just spread it like peanut butter on the towel (fantastic). He ate some red chard. I just made the pellet mix and it’s cooling, so I’ll also see if he’ll take that. Thanks for the continued help!

                                            He hasn’t pooped since about 11AM this morning but he usually doesn’t really go during the day, so I’m not sure if to be worried. I did just see him eat a cecal, so is that a good sign? Just as good as normal pooping? LOL

                                            EDIT: Okay so he’s still eating the red chard, and he tried the fluffed up pellet mix and liked it! Hopefully he’ll keep eating it. Thanks again jersey girl!

                                            Before going to the vet today, I had noticed that one side of Sammy’s jaw felt very slightly swollen in one spot, and I got worried it might be an abscess. The vet felt him and agreed there was a slight diference between the two sides, but she said that since he didn’t seem to react to her touching it it might just be an area with more dense muscles (I’m not using the exact terms she did). But since he’s shunning the solid pellets but eating the fluffed up ones, could this happen just from the pasteurella or do there have to be dental issues for him to prefer one to the other?

                                            Also, if does turn out to be an abscess, would the baytril help it as well? I guess I can just wait and see if his eating betters as his sneezing decreases, and then if it does I’ll know it was just from the pasteurella.


                                          • Otti
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                                              So it’s official, he’ll eat the critical care if it’s spread in a thin layer on the towel but won’t even sniff it if it’s in a bowl. Does he just like the added challenge? lol


                                            • jerseygirl
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                                                Least he’s eating his relatively normal foods. Maybe the criti care clumps a bit on the towel so it’s less liquid? The critical care is good for him to have too when on antibiotics I think. Isn’t it supposed to have probiotics or something in it?

                                                OK, so don’t quote me on this but I think the pasteurella bacteria is really common and is opportunistic, meaning it will take advantage of certain conditions and multiply causing infection. I *think* it is often found in abscesses. I’m really not clear on it. I won’t add anymore until I have a chance to read about it again. I think it can be a “what came first, the chicken or the egg?” situation.

                                                Edit to add:

                                                Also, if does turn out to be an abscess, would the baytril help it as well?

                                                As I understand it, vets normally put them straight onto an antibiotic (baytril seems most common.)  It might not completely knock out the bacteria causing the trouble but should help contain the infection so it doesn’t spread to other areas.  A test can be done to establish what is present and what med is best to combat it. How did your vet determine pasteurella?


                                              • Otti
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                                                  When i go pick up his medicine tomorrow at the vet, I’ll definitely make sure to ask her if they could be connected and whether the baytril would cure the abscess as well if it’s there.

                                                  Now Sammy is eating the Critical Care out of the bowl. He’s supposed to have 6 tbsp plus water per day, and he’s probably eaten 2 tbps since we got home from the vet, so I think that should be okay for now.

                                                  Still no poop or pee though. He might have peed within an hour of getting back home from the vet, but not since I’ve changed his litter a few hours ago. He did eat some cecals, and I gave him a tummy rub to see if that would help witht he pooping. He definitely has stuff he should be pooping and he got all those fluids so shouldn’t he need to pee really bad?


                                                • Sarita
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                                                    Otti, how did the vet determine this was pasturella? Did they do a culture test?


                                                  • Otti
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                                                      Hey Sarita, no she didn’t do a culture. Since I had read about that just earlier yesterday on the forum I brought it up to her, and she said that in her experience (she’s actually a very rabbit-savvy vet) it’s almost always pasteurella when rabbits have these upper respiratory infections and either way she treats with baytril. I assumed since I’d specifically asked about the culture and she said no that she knows better. Sammy is definitely sneezing less so hopefully her ‘instinct’ was right. Should I have insisted more on a culture?

                                                      Other weird thing, I caught Sammy eating a few pieces of his carefresh again yesterday but this time he specifically dug in the corner he pees to reach the wet carefresh and ate a few pieces of the one soaked in his urine. I’m going to get baytril at the vet’s so i’ll ask them too.


                                                    • Sarita
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                                                        Well, I think that it’s not always pasturella but they do treat many upper respiratory infections with baytril. I do hate when vets just assume it’s pasturella because it really isn’t always this…that is just an assumption. Many upper respiratory infections and bacterias have the same symptoms.

                                                        I think if the baytril is working then you should be fine but if you find that it continues or comes back then I would insist on a culture.

                                                        Vibes to Otti.


                                                      • Otti
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                                                          Okay thanks I’ll insist if he doesn’t keep getting better. Otti is my nickname and Sammy is
                                                          my rabbit’s name but I still really appreciate the vibes! Thanks


                                                        • Sarita
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                                                            LOL – sorry, vibes to Sammy :~)


                                                          • Otti
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                                                              So I feel like a rabbit cook/chemist. Sammy is eating his critical care mixed with water and a bit of ground up freeze-dried mango pretty easily. He’s had about 2 tbsp so far today and he needs about 6 total per day.

                                                              I made him this concoction in my food mixer of about 1 cup of parsely, 1 baby carrot and half a slice of apple. It’s the first vegetable-based thing he’s actually eating greedily. Do you think it’s okay to give him or would that be too sugary?

                                                              I tried a parsley, arugula, baby carrot and 1 tbsp of critical care plus water mix but he liked that less than the plain critical care.


                                                            • jerseygirl
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                                                                With the eating litter, I wonder if he’s hungry since he’s not eating hay? Jersey has eaten soiled paper and paper litters before.
                                                                Or there might be some salt in them that they like.

                                                                Are you able to give him more pellets without causing issue? Or try soaked hay cakes or 100% hay pellets if you can get them. If you have a grinder, you could even try chopping hay and wetting it. Or soak it a bit first then chop.


                                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                                  Re my post above, it might not be hunger exactly but more of a past time. If he normally spends time grazing on hay, he could be using the litter as a substitute.

                                                                  You asked earlier

                                                                  But since he’s shunning the solid pellets but eating the fluffed up ones, could this happen just from the pasteurella or do there have to be dental issues for him to prefer one to the other?

                                                                  I suppose it could be due to being all blocked up when I think about it. Might make regular chewing of dry foods more difficult. I never thought about it til now, just assumed it would be because of teeth.


                                                                • littlemissflip
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                                                                    You can also try mixing the critical care with a little fruit juice. We’ve had good luck with Bolthouse Farms fruit jucies/smoothies. They’re really sweet and concentrated (too sweet for my tastes), so they blend well with critical care and bland tasting medicines, and you don’t need very much. Obviously, because of the sugar content, you wouldn’t want to feed juice like this to your bunny on a regular basis, but if you’re feeling desperate about getting food/meds into a very stubborn bunny, it’s another option.

                                                                    Our bunny, Captain Danger, takes his chalky-tasting fenbendazole meds (for E. caniculi) like candy from the syringe if we mix it with Bolthouse Farms strawberry-banana smoothy (again–just a TINY amount!). And a friend of mine used the carrot juice to successfully get his bunny to eat critical care when he had some post-neuter appetite loss. Like you, though, his bunny wouldn’t take the critical care from the syringe, but prefered to lick it off a spoon… whatever it takes!


                                                                  • Otti
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                                                                      Oh for some reason my previous message didn’t post.

                                                                      Thanks so much for the suggestions! I’ll try the soaked hay cakes and adding fruit or carrot juice to the critical care next!

                                                                      Sammy is currently eating about two thirds of the critical care he’s supposed to get through in one day. He’ll now eat it off my finger, but not from the bowl except on rare occasions (sigh). He pooped a lot this morning, and it looked normal, but so far tonight only 4 or so poops (slightly larger than normal) and some pee. He has been eating his cecals pretty regularly.

                                                                      He just got through maybe half a cup of veggies including arugula and cilantro. He’s also taking his baytril much more easily all of a sudden, thank god. His sneezes are much less frequent so hopefully the baytril is helping, but i’m starting to think the abscess-like area on the right of his jaw seems more pronounced. I might have to take him back into the vet depending on how that feels in the next few days – or either way to check whether his weight is going back up.


                                                                    • Sarita
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                                                                        If he does have an dental abscess you might want to speak to the vet about doing pen-g shots…baytril just doesn’t seem to hit the abscesses as hard as the baytril/pen-g combo.


                                                                      • Otti
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                                                                          Hey! If you want to monitor Sammy’s every move the way I’m doing from work today, here is his webcam link

                                                                          http://skjm.com/icam/web/

                                                                          just type in

                                                                          login: sesame
                                                                          password: open

                                                                          and then make sure you type in the words shown below the login part on the website to verify that you are indeed a person lol

                                                                          I forgot to give him his baytril this morning, so I’ll have to go back at lunch. Tune in around 12:30 for a real show LOL As you can see, there are lots of new healthy looking poops in his box (I changed it this morning before work so they’re really recent) and he was eating veggies when I woke up. He only took a few leaves of his new veggies though, and only half a tbsp or maybe a tbsp of his critical care. I couldn’t feed him more cause I had to get to work I’ll try to get more in him at lunch.

                                                                          Sarita,
                                                                          Sammy’s regular vet will be back in the office on Thursday so I was going to schedule an appointment that morning to check on his weight and the possible abscess. Do you think it’s okay to wait that long to ask about the pen-g shots or should I try to call today?


                                                                        • Sarita
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                                                                            That should be fine. I think it’s best to see his regular vet who knows him. I regret not doing pen-g with Emmy when she had a dental abscess and I ended up having to put her to sleep because it didn’t get better and the dental vet couldn’t pull the infected tooth due to the location…we just did baytril and it was not enough. Bobby had a dental abscess and the vet that took care of him put him on pen-g and he got better even if he did lose some teeth – he is now a healthy little rabbit.

                                                                            Pen-g is an injection so you are going to have to do injections if you end up using this.


                                                                          • Otti
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                                                                              Wow, yeah I’ll definitely mention it I’m praying that it’s not actually an abscess or that it gets better just on the baytril, but I definitely want to make sure it’s being monitored closely, and that if it’s an abscess it gets identified as such asap, so that we can treat it appropriately.

                                                                              Not sure how me giving him injections would go. i couldn’t even feed him the critical care


                                                                            • Otti
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                                                                                Do abscesses usually hurt when the vet touches them? His vet could tell that one side of his jaw seemed to have a slight protrusion but she said that it could just be muscle because he doesn’t seem to react with pain when it’s touched. I felt it yesterday, putting pressure on it, and he had no reaction then as well…

                                                                                Other question – when I picked up Sammy’s antibiotic on Monday, another of the vet’s at the office I go to (they’re all supposed to be rabbit-savvy actually) answered a few of my questions, saying that abscesses are often related to pasteurella or whatever infection is going on. He said that because of the nature of rabbit’s abscesses, often, the only way to ‘cure’ them is to remove them surgically. Does that sound right?


                                                                              • Sarita
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                                                                                  That does sound right about the abscess – usually a vet will try to “drain” them – rabbit pus is very thick, like cottage cheese. You still need a powerful antibiotic in conjunction with the drainage.

                                                                                  I’m not sure about if it hurts – it may be more like pressure and blockage which may cause discomfort depending on where the abscess is located.


                                                                                • Otti
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                                                                                    okay thanks for all the help! I will let you know what the vet says Thursday

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                                                                                Forum DIET & CARE Not eating pellets … UPDATE: Pasteurella – can’t feed Critical Care