How far would you go? General discussion :)

[Karla]

I was talking with my boyfriend on the way home from the vet, if Freddie should be put to sleep if he turned blind or if he had a tumor. My first reaction was nooo, he could live a good and long life as a blind bunny, but my boyfriend pointed out that there is a big difference between people and animals, and that it probably would not be a happy bunny-life. I could see his point and started thinking about it.

And then we started talking about those bunnies, I know House Rabbit Society is quite proud of, you know those who are paralysed from the back and down, but who use small bunny-wheel chairs. It freaks me out everything I see pictures, and personally I find it horrible that these bunnies have not been put to sleep.

My sweet Jack lived a long time without incissors, and I loved him endlessly, but admittedly there has been a big number of times where I have felt bad about it. I keep reading that bunnies have a physical and mental urge to chew, and that it is bad to deny them this natural need (in case of toys, but of course also applies in cases of  living without incissors), so I am very divided whether I would do it again or not.

So, just out of curiousity- how far would you go to keep your bunny alive with a disability of some kind (money and vet help are no boundaries here) and why?

It is always nice to hear about people’s point of views and perhaps this could help us be prepared if something really bad should happen and we have to make such a decision for our bunnies.

[Deleted User]

what a can of worms you are opening Karla.
Blind bunny: no question, I would keep him. I do agree with you about considering a rabbit’s urge to do certain things as a factor in this decision. An incisor-less bun can still chew in the back of his mouth, though, so no question, I’d keep him too.
A three-legged bunny I’d also keep.
The wheelchair bunny is where it stops for me and I ask that members please don’t compare this to a human in a wheelchair because most certainly a human’s life in a wheelchair is still very rich. A human can understand why they can still feel their missing limbs or why their legs aren’t working; a rabbit would not be able to comprehend this.
I would keep a dog like Faith, the famous two-legged dog, but it’s the wheelchair that would make it hard for me as pet owner. I guess, if money was no issue I could keep a wheelchair pet but the way my setup is now I couldn’t.

[Sarita]

I can speak to this because I’ve been there. My rabbit Maxine had debilitating arthritis. It didn’t all happen at once but probably over the course of a year and a half she got progressively worse. I tried many many treatments and initially they all seemed to work but at the end they just didn’t.

My vet and I could see she was suffering and frustrated not being able to walk and barely scoot. Also she had severe urine scald that just could not be treated to my satisfaction.

I really really deliberated over this and in the end with the vet’s consent we let her cross the bridge.

I think you have to take into consideration will any treatment even work. Also will caring for your rabbit keep you from caring properly for yourself and your other rabbits….something you need to consider.

It truly is a quality of life and a quality of care issue.

[Deleted User]

That’s what would hold me back from the wheelchair rabbit scenario; I also have two dogs that take up much time with their care and my other rabbits of course.
Good point, Sarita.

[Andi]

It all comes down to Quality of Life.
If the animal is happy and not in pain, I will continue to let them live the best life i can possibly give them.

I had a partially paralyzed bunny, who could scoot herself around. People who ‘saw’ her but did not know her would curse me for my cruelty (ok, not to my face but I heard about it). For anyone who has never met a handicap animal, I erg you to get to know one if you have the chance.
My little lady Ebony was an amzing rabbit who taught me so much, She was a livley girl who lived to eat, loved pets and attention, and had not a second thought to put another rabbit in it’s place, she had bunnytude even though she was unable to move around like a typical bunny.  She was a Diva, no matter what.
The day did come where she wasn’t quite happy, her body was giving up and I had to say goodbye. I have met people I feel do not ‘see’ when it’s that time, and continue to keep an animal around becuase of their own feelings, and not wanting to say goodbye.

Because of this experiance with Ebony, i no longer judge people who keep handicap animals, at least not until I get to actually know that animal. Not all of them are going to want to live when parts of their body’s not longer function as they were suposed to. But others, just move on past that handicap and keep on treck’n. Those are the ones I feel badly for when people put down b/c of their own reasons, like not wating to care for them now that they are special needs, or maybe not want to have the vet bills… whatever the reason.

I would have also had a almost 100% blind bunny, he was neglected and needed an eye removed b/c of infection, unfortunetly by the time I got him no matter what hard work i did to help him, the infection was just to much in the end. When he wasn’t in pain though, he got around (humped lol) very well, and I could see him living a sightless life. My Dog did, sometimes I wish she had been a little more careful without her site, but she didn’t care and kept living the life, including running around like a big dork :p

I will help those critters in need, I will help them live a happy life as long as they want it, no matter their handicap. But I will not continue to ‘make’ them live when they or their bodies have given up, as I hope if I was in that situation myslef someone would do the same for me.

[Deleted User]

Often an animal with a handicap is extra precious and will be adopted out fast at shelters. I remember a dog who had lost both eyes due to cruelty found a new home the same day she arrived at the shelter I worked at, whereas her sister never found a home even though they were bonded and arrived together.

[Andi]

Yeah, that does happen a bit.
I would not go ‘seeking’ a handicap animal myself though. As much as I missed Ebony when i had to say goodbye, there was a lot of relief as it’s hard work to care for them and it takes it’s toll on you… and your social life as well.

That’s kind of sad they seperated those two dogs, I would feel so guilty

[Deleted User]

The shelter manager felt that chances were nobody would adopt the pair of sisters together in time especially given the special need. They were large dogs too. It was a busy shelter. They came from a home where they were loved but the owners had dog-hating neighbors and the home was unsafe for that reason. It was a heart-breaker all around.

[Deleted User]

sorry, Karla, for going off on the tangent, but my point is that special needs pets are sometimes preferred even.

[Karla]

Hehe, that’s okay. And you make a good point. When I was looking for a new bunny a few months back, I actually had my heart set on a bunny with catharact…so, that just proves your point.

But you all talk about the work involved – if you don’t look at that part at all, but purely the ethical, then you would all keep the disabled bunnies?

I’m really not sure about a blind bunny myself now. Because a blind person can feel the world around him with his hands, he can ask people what colour the sky is today, and he can read certain books and papers and listen to the tv…but a blind bunny lives in complete darkness which it doesn’t understand.

Petzy, when I mentioned Jack and the urge for chewing, then it was because the other two love chewing and ripping cardboard boxes to pieces. Jack on the other hand would sit there and try to lick on the cardboard boxes. So, I really don’t think that the back of his teeth were of any use in that particular situation, and I felt so bad whenever he did this and tried to chew. But if you are right, then a big stone fell from my heart, I’m just not sure though.

[Andi]

We have to also put into consideration, in the case of a blind animal and even human, their other senses are hightened to make up for that lost sense. A friend of mine who is blind, would still ‘look’ at me when he was talking, I could hide from my dog, but she would use her nose to find me.
Still i would not change around the furnature in the home, and so you do do things to help them.
I met a man with no arms, Dr.’s told his mother he’s never be able to even sit up. They guy drives a car, plays the piano and drums (and well too!)… all with his feet. After talking with him a little while, you actually forget he doesn’t have arms.

**But you all talk about the work involved – if you don’t look at that part at all, but purely the ethical, then you would all keep the disabled bunnies?** Yes. As if i had a child who had an acident or was born with a disability, i would keep them too (But I may just be a crazy lady who thinks her pets are her children no matter the species, everyone gets love and respect).

[Sarita]

Well, I would not seek out a pet with a disability – not at my age and not with my current crew but if one of my own became disabled I would care for them and keep them alive as long as they had a good quality of life and I was able to care properly for them.

[MirBear]

if my bunnies needed frequent medical care they would be either euthinized or sent to a shelter unfortunatly due to my current circumstances and my mother not beliving in vets for a “$5 animal” i wouldn’t be able to keep them.. my bunnies arnt even housed properly.. mind you they are the happiest bunnies i’ve ever met.

so as much as i would want to, they would not be able to live with me if they had “special needs” that were expensive. if it was that they could live with and didnt require medical attention.. (such as being deaf or something) they would stay with me.. i mean sometimes for as much as they actually listen when you talk you’d think they were deaf anyways right?

[Free2Dream]

Plenty of animals, regardless of the species, can adapt to most disabilities like blindness/deafness/three-leggedness, etc. I would let Oliver live on with one of these conditions as long as he seemed to be enjoying his life like he did before he became disabled. I have known many animals who were blind, including horses that were still being ridden, that I didn’t even know were blind until someone pointed it out to me; they compensated that well for their lack of vision.

And if you think about it, rabbit vision is not extraordinary. Their ears/sense of touch (i.e. their whiskers) are their greatest assets. Losing their sight might cause these senses to grow even stronger, thus farther equipping the bun for survival.

Animal wheelchairs of any kind freak me out… cruel and unusual punishment, if you ask me. I would never subject any animal of mine to that.

[4Lily]

wow, this is difficult to answer! If Lily became diabled in anyway, as long as he wasn’t suffering, I would keep him & do everything I could to make his life as comfortable & happy as possible! I wouldn’t go out to find one, but my heart would want me to help them if one came my way! I am looking for a new career & looking into DSW or Ea etc, disabilities in humans tugs my heart & I want to make a difference in their lives, so I think it’s the same in animals for me! I know alot of people/kids with disabilities, even some that weren’t born with it & they have coped the best they can, why wouldn’t an animal do the same? I think it’s instinct for us & animals to survive, but as far as suffering, no way if they weren’t ever going to get better! And that goes for both humans & animals in my opinion!

[MirBear]

lily i agree..
personally i want to become either a phyciatrist or youth worker and i find my self drawn to animals (and people) who have had bad pasts.. abuse and such. although i wouldn’t ever search for an animal just because it had a rough start in life if one came my way i couldn’t say no.
i guess our personalities choose what kind of pets would be best for us. i could understand an abused animal better than an ordinary animal.

sorry, off topic

[MissKris&Koji]

I think another factor is how the animal tolerates the needed treatment (if there is treatment, obviously not really applicable to blind/deaf).

I had a trio of rats, and they unfortunately all became ill with the same chronic respiratory condition. One much worse than the others, and sooner. I treated her for as long as possible, and while she was not happy about the twice daily antibiotics, she tolerated it. But finally she would get sick as soon as she went off the meds, and I thought between her dislike for the antibiotics and the general worsening of her condition, it was just time to let her go.

This next one was an even harder decision. We recognized her symptoms much earlier in the illness because of the experience with the first one, so took her in to get treated sooner, which should have improved prognosis. We tried a less harsh antibiotic given that she was not as sick, but it did nothing. So we tried her on the same as we treated the other girl with, and saw some success, but not until the last week of a month long 2x a day treatment. And she HATED the process. So much so that she figured out how to spit out the antibiotics we syringe fed her. Given her poor response the best medication available (taking 3 weeks to see improvement and return to condition prior to treatment within a couple weeks of going off) and her very clear and verbal protest to the medication, I decided not to continue. She is still sick, but stable – she lives life much like someone with allergies would, increased sneezing and discharge of the eyes. But she still eats, and she still plays some, though perhaps not as much as she used to. We will not treat her again, and when she starts to lose weight or not play, we will put her down.

Even if the medication had worked better, I probably would make the same choice for her. Having to treat twice a day, with 2 antibiotics each time and a fairly large amount (for the size of a rat)… for a month each time, on and off for the rest of her life and eventually very likely every day of her life. That is too much to ask of an animal. In some ways I still struggle with guilt for not “doing everything I can”, but I think this is much like people who have some illness with very very low chance of treatment working, and the treatment making you feel horrible (like chemo), and I think if I were in that position I would make the same choice for myself.

[Monkeybun]

Well, with me and hubby able to financially care for our buns very well, I think that if they seem to be happy, and still enjoy laying and eating, then I’d definitely do what I can to keep them around. I’ll only consider putting them down if their quality of life drops way down, and they are suffering. If its an easy medical thing where they need treatment every now and then, or daily meds or something, definitely going to keep them! As long as they are happy, so am I.

[MimzMum]

Wow, this is a hard one. I think a lot of it all comes down to the moment when you are faced with the decision to keep or not…it depends on your current circumstances sometimes. But for the most part, I would, ethically, try to keep a disabled bun as long as it wasn’t in pain and still functioning happily. Or rehome it if I wasn’t able to care for it properly.
That being said, I have watched a lot of my pets linger in poor health while I or my husband came to grips with the fact that they weren’t getting better and were just not enjoying life anymore. It takes my husband longer than it takes me to decide that, this is not the life they would want and something needs to be done. But this has all been with animals in very obvious life limiting conditions or illnesses.

My hub has constant back trouble. I know there must be some days when he just does not want to open his eyes in the morning. But we are human, and can rationalize a way to make ourselves get up and go. What must it feel like for an animal? I know I wouldn’t have put my dog Shadow into a wheelchair simply because, even if it would’ve comfortably prolonged his life, HE would not appreciate it. He was a husky and they are bred to run, walk, shamble…ANY kind of movement, but a chair would have limited where he could go and how well and, I am certain, would’ve made him FEEL bad about himself-believe it or not. I had always hoped he would go on the trail…or just sitting under a tree in the sunshine with me. As it was, he died unable to move his back legs anymore. He was strong enough to hold on until we took him to the vet, but considering how quickly he went, he was more than ready long before we were.

Back to bunnies though….do any of our older members recall the young lady who used to post here from the Midwest, can’t recall her username, but another member from the same region named angoragrl used to post with her alot; who cared for the two little splayed leg bunnies, Holiday and Fiesta? I have never forgotten those little guys, nor has my daughter. Theirs was such a moving story. They didn’t live long, but whatever time they had she gave them her all. I can still see them flopping around like little fuzzy fish after the green beans she fed them. I wish I still had the video. They certainly weren’t going to live a normal bunny life, but they had spunk and fire and you could just see that they had happiness and love in their lives. Two things I don’t think any of us should live without.

I think it can come down to, what are YOU as caretaker willing to do? If it is not within you to care for a disabled bun, and you have no wish to rehome him and you believe he is unhappy or unwell, then I suppose it would be kinder to release him than have whatever burden or resentment coming from you which will overshadow how you feel about the bun. But it seems kind of sad. There are simply too many options to consider. Life is so short as it is. I hate the idea of anything that makes it any more brief.
And it’s very easy to armchair quarterback this kind of thing. I don’t like to see animals suffer is all. That would be my focus. And our view is subjective. We don’t truly know, unless there is visible distress, if our pets are unhappy with their lives. We have to guess. I don’t like making life or death decisions from a guess.

[Monkeybun]

One of the RA members, one of the original members in fact, has a partially paralyzed bunny. She keeps this bun around for a couple reasons : One, the little Princess adores her food and pet times. SHe’s a happy girl! And Two… she doesn’t seem to mind if she can’t hop around. She is perfectly happy being carried around and doted on like the little Princess she is. She may have a messy bum, but doesn’t mind being cleaned, and she likes the attention she gets. And a bunny living beside her area seems to adore her, grooming her through the pen bars whenever Princess is laying in her cozy little bed. It’s adorable

So just because a bunny may not be able to hop and run and play as much, doesn’t mean they aren’t happy. She perks up when people are around, inhales her nommies, tooth purrs, everything. Now, if she wasn’t a happy girl, I am sure Mary would have let her go. But she’s content with ehr life as it is If I could have adopted her, I would have!

[KatnipCrzy]

If a pet slowly loses its sight- as can be common in pets with cataracts- it is adjusting to the vision change. It does not need sight to entertain itself- and could still have a happy life – especially if the bunny is bonded- the sense of companionship would still be there.

If it is a current medical situation- I would evaluate how happy the pet is. If the pet becomes reclusive and immobile- then I would be unhappy with that. If I thought a procedure would make the pet miserable- then I would not do it. But in some cases removing a damaged eye or amputating a leg CAN improve their quality of life vs pain.

[Beka27]

Posted By Petzy on 07/30/2010 11:01 AM
sorry, Karla, for going off on the tangent, but my point is that special needs pets are sometimes preferred even.

 

This makes me think of Kokaneeandkahlua.  She sought out a handicapped rabbit (Chuck, who was blind) and even drove hours to go pick him up.  And while he didn’t live a long time with her, he had attention, a companion who looked out for him, and a safe, loving home in his final days.  He couldn’t have asked for more.

[Author]

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