Bonding Session #4:

Today was the most interesting session so far.

I took them in the car in their bonding box again, did the same usual drive and brought them back to the same spot in the kitchen.

I groomed them both while they were snuggling together as I have been. They both were being completely calm and timid as they have been for the last week.

THEN...

Riley suddenly got up and it appeared she was going to hide behind Dexter but instead she started humping her! Based on what I have read I tried to do the right thing - let Riley hump for a couple of seconds while keeping Dexter calm by petting her while it was going on and then gently removing Riley from Dexter and petting both of them. Riley did this one more time and I did the same thing again. Everything stayed very calm.

After the humping I pet them both snuggling together for another few minutes and then I seperated them and brought them back to their new pens next to each other. I stopped them at this point to end on a positive note.

I wonder if this behavior came from their new home together and some need for dominance to be established? Riley is a bit bigger than Dexter so it sort of makes sense.

Overall I think this was sort of progress perhaps!? Maybe a step towards the two of them sorting things out.

We shall see - fingers crossed!

Also, if somebody can answer my question from the previous post about switching litter boxes that would be great.

Thanks for your ears guys!

-Jackie

Posted By jstukey on 08/02/2010 01:32 PM
Thanks! I'm happy to have finally put something together although after 10 years or so having buns with no cages or containment at all I am a bit of a sad mommy locking them up

I know... just remember... it's TEMPORARY and it's serving a greater purpose!

Bonding Session #5:

Another good one today! Today was the first time I did not drive them around first. Instead I groomed Riley first with my new HairBuster (thank you BinkyBunny!!) which made Riley a little nervous. Then I brought down Dexter and did the same before our bonding session in our usual spot on the kitchen floor.

Today I held Dexter who completely relaxed lying on my lap while I was petting her. Riley was so sweet and instead of hopping away or trying to pick a fight with Dexter she kept coming over to us and resting her head on me and Dex looking for snuggles! The three of us snuggled for a while and there were even a few little grooming kisses shared between the two of them. We did this for about a half an hour and then my husband and I called it a day in the interest of ending on a good note.

My two buns are now beautifully groomed and sprawled out resting in their new pens.

So far so good but at the same time we have been taking it really slowly and have not taken many risks. I might start to change things up starting next week to push things a little. What do you guys think??

Have a good night!

-Jackie

Dexter = Black   //    Riley = White

Posted By jstukey on 07/27/2010 05:04 PM
Another question: I noticed Karla has been trying a system where she holds and pets one of them while the other explores and interacts naturally. My fear with this approach is that the territory issues might be exasperated if they consider ME territory and get jealous of each other. Thoughts? Am I being crazy?

Thanks guys. YOU ALL ROCK FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT THIS!

-Jackie

I was just talking a look at your thread to see if I can learn any tips, I might use with mine.

Actually, I did not pet just one of them while the other explored...in that case, it must have been in the beginning, when they did just fine  For the past 2 weeks, I have had them on my lap at the same time, sqeezed together and petted them both for them to enjoy each other's company. Like I can see you have been doing as well. One of mine is very easily stressed out, so stress sessions do not seem to work for him.

To me, the lap thing has not worked wonders, and I have moved on to using Serene-UM hoping that this might help.

Like you, I am sorry to see them caged while this is going on, so I let mine run freely during the day.

It sounds like you are well on your way!!! What are you doing differently now than you did a few months back? If I were you, I would be so excited that they finally seem to be getting along, that I would not rush things. You have been doing this for so long, so no need to push it, so you might risk ruining your success, I think.

hey dude, it's bee a while since I've been on here but I've been reading up on your story, and I have to say it sounds really familiar (I think my bonding journal is linked somwhere in this thread).

Looks like you;re doign reqally well, and if they're snuggling and humping rather than fighting then you're well on your way to having superbly bonded girls. Those are some super-cute bunnie syou have as well. Love the picture of them sharing a carrot!

The one thing that really pushed our two ahead was having a bonding box that we just put them in with a load of hay. I had it on my knee for about 45 mins at a time so I could stroke them and transfer scents etc. After a couple of weeks of that my girlfriend acually took a week off work and did all day sessions with them in an xpen in an entirely neutral room they'd never been in before. A couple of days later we cemented them for a couple of weeks and now they're living together as best friends

Crumbs! I wouldn't call myself (or my girlfriend) an expert, but I guess we did manage it, and it definitly took time and perseverance!

1) How big was your bonding box? Mine is just over a foot cubed. Big enough for them to both turn around and snuggle with each other, but not much more than that. Should it be bigger? I'd like to do that for a couple of sessions.

2) When you were doing all day sessions, did fights ever break out? As I mentioned in my previous post my husband and I have been taking it extremely slow. More specifically we have not really yet let them just both hop around together freely outside of the box. During our sessions I have either been holding one of them or keeping them both really mellow with dual massages with them snuggled together. Once I stop massaging them in theory they will start hopping around, getting acquainted with the kitchen and THAT is when I anticipate the fight potential. So, my question is, during those all day sessions when/if fights ever broke out, did they set you back on the bonding process? That is what I get nervous about which is why I am taking it so slowly.

3) If fights broke out, how did you handle it?

4) What is 'cementing'?
 

 Our bonding box was a clear plastic storage box, I'd say about 2ft x 1.5ft x 1ft  - it was pretty much all we had to hand. Enough space for them to snuggle and move around/eat hay a little bit.

During the all day sessions there were a couple of instances of chasing/nipping but nothing more harsh than that.

I forgot to mention that before that we did about a week's worth of 45 - 60 minute sessions in a pen, in a completely new area and this was pretty much what made us decide to go ahead and do the all day sessions. They got to the stage where rather than fighting, they were actually having a power struggle over who should groom who. This is kind of how we could tell they were ready to move onto all day sessions.

It is my belief (and it's been covered a few times on this forum) that the SPACE in which you do the bonding can be the deciding factor. If you ever get stuck in a rut with it and things don't seem to be progressing, use a new area and it can really push things forward. It's all about territorality with 2 females, so take them into a new area with new smells and it seems to focus them on becoming friends. I know this isn't always possible.

Fights - Before the later stages, our two definitely had a few scuffles and our perfected technique was always to have the bonding box on standby. If they started, we'd scoop them both up quickly and keep them separated for a minute or 2 to calm down. Then we'd stick them both in the bonding box for 5-10 minutes, where they'd behave themselves and groom each other. It's just like an Ice-Hockey game!!!

If you like, our bonding box was like a "steady state" area, where we knew they'd always behave, so it's good to have something like this so you can always return them to a good point if things don't quite work out.

"Cementing" is where once you're happy that they are now "friends" and are not fighting, but snuggling together and grooming, then you actually move them in together into a neutral area. We used the same area we used for the all day bonding sessions and stayed up all night for the first day to make sure there were no fisticuffs. You need to keep them in this area for 2 weeks for the bond to cement, which allows the bunnies enough time to forget about the other non-neutral areas of the house. We used this time to deep clean the house and get rid of all the scents left by either bunny. After the 2 weeks, you should be able to move them back to where you want their permanent home to be, prvided you've cleaned it thoroughly (with white vinegar).

I hope this helps! We were in exactly the same position as you, and this forum really helped but unfortunately, bunnies have a mind of their own and what works for some people may not for others, so you just have to try things and stick to the things that work.

Ah yes, glad you asked! During the shorter sessions (45-60 mins) we didn't use litter trays, as we thought this would cause terrritoriality. They will always try and claim things as their own, and if they haven't yet decided who is dominant and who is subordinate, they will fight over everything, in our experience.

It kinda sounds like your two may be on their way to sorting the power struggle out though, so you might find that if one is consistantly humping and demanding grooms, as long as the other one acquiesces, then you should be OK to try out a litter tray. Obviously, in a  day long session, you need litter trays, hay and other food, but I would steer clear of boxes and toys.

We definitely used a squirty bottle! Both bunnies got a regular soaking in the early stages, and I wouldn;t be too scared to use this technique. It works to an extent, and doesn't harm them, as long as you don't qsuirt it right in their eyes. Set the bottle so it is kind of a jet, but kind of dispersed as well - if that makes sense!

I'm writing this with my girlfriend's help now, and she said they actually did have a couple of minor scuffles in the first 2 days of the daily sessions but she managed to separate them and put them in the box. I think at this stage you just have to persevere and be stern with them.

Bonding Session #6:

Woohoo! GREAT bonding session last night! I did things entirely different this time in the spirti of not letting them get used to anything.

I set up an xpen outside on my patio. Neither of the bunnies have ever spent any time outside so this was a big change for them.

First I put them both in their bonding box to nerv them up a little. Then I took the box and put it in the xpen for a few minutes before taking them out. My sister (who they love) and I sat in the xpen with them (wine in hand ofcourse!) and we took them out of the box and let them hop around freely. This is the first time since this round of bonding sessions that I have let them hop freely more than a foot or so. They both explored the whole pen nervously, ignoring each other at first.

After about 20 minutes or so they started getting more interested in each other by going to nose to nose for a few seconds before hopping away. They also did a little butt sniffing which was making me nervous but the sniffing did not escalate to any fights which was a complete first! There was one nip at one time but instead of turning into a brawl the nipped bunny just hopped away and continued on exploring the new space - this was a very new reaction for me.

The best part was that Dexter started grooming Riley while I was petting Riley! She was licking her face and her ears. Then she got in under her stomache which again made me nervous but my sister and I quickly discovered she was just gromming and Riley was totall letting it happen. This went on only for about 30 second increments but still, pretty fantastic for the first time having some space to cause trouble in.

I then decieded to end it on a good note and bring both girls up to their pens for some quiet time next to each other.

YAY! Feeling good this morning and happy to have this new outside space to continue experimenting with.

Slow and steady. Feeling cautiously confident.

Thank you all guys!

ox

Jackie

Riley = White // Dexter = Black  - I am the one wearing the pink gloves.

Bonding Session #7:

Another great/interesting session this afternoon.

Today I started off again by putting them in the bonding box and then bringing them right outside to the xpen. I was on my own today and coordinating the whole thing was quite a project I must say! Anyway...

We spent about an hour out there. They were great, hoping around doing their own thing. It's really amazing actually considering where we have been to see them this mellow together.

Dexter did a TON of grooming. She kept going over to Riley and instead of them fighting, she would imediately start licking Riley's face like crazy. Face, ears, back everything. Most of the time Riley would lean into it, even stick her head far under Dexter just to get more but after about an hour of periodic grooming I was sensing that she might be getting agitated a little.

Another thing to note is that when they were hopping around minding there own busines, when they would suddenly catch the other one's glance they would both quickly approach each other and both put their heads all the way down to the ground, nose to nose like they were both waiting for the other to give in and groom.

Dexter also kept going up to Riley and pushing her head against her BEGGING to be groomed but Riley still wont give up even one tiny lick. She NEVER has licked Dex unfortunately.

The other big thing to note is the humping. Riley humped Dexter 3 times during this hour session. Each time I pet Dexter through it as I was worried if I did not it would turn into a fight. I only let the humping go on for about 10 seconds before removing Riley.

QUESTION: How should I best handle humping? Will that in theory ever stop assuming they do get bonded? I worry about the humping a lot because I really can see that triggering a fight.

After bonding, I brought them inside gave treats and hugs.

The end! (for today!)

Haha Yes, just my buns name. More to do with cows and sweets then New Jersey. lol I'm an Aussie born and bred.

It seems Riley is the more dominant at this point. The humping may die down. They're establishing the heirachy. It doesn't always remain that one is bossy, one is submissive once they're bonded. It can level out some. Though some rabbits like to assert they are top bunny always - but that depends on the individual.   That Dexter is accepting Rileys dominance is reasonably well is good. You could try prompt Riley to groom Dexter by putting someting tasty on her forehead. Bit if juice, banana, raisin goo etc

 Bonding Session #8:

So now things are getting interesting!

Last night my husband needed to drop his car off to get some work done so I decided to take the girls for a stress ride before the bonding session. We put them in their bonding box and then set them up in the kitchen as we have been doing with a big fresh (never been bunny-fied) towel on the floor.

The good news: No fights! Actually, for those of you following along there has not been a single fight since we started this round of bonding sessions! Nada! This is awesome.

The bad(ish) news: Humping. A total wild card for us and completely new territory. Riley is now obsessed with humping Dexter! As a reminder, it has only been Riley humping Dex - so far Dex has not humped Riley. Anyway, after they were on the ground for a little while hoping around, Riley just went for it. Dexter was really calm, just lying there letting it happen. Mommy was not so calm but trying to be!
Anyway, after a few seconds of humping I kept quietly taking Riley off but she just kept going back to mounting position. Finally my husband and I decided to let her keep going - Dexter was calm and I was petting her so our thought was that she would eventually get over the need to keep humping if it was not yielding anything. Riley did eventually stop humping after about 30 seconds or so but she just stayed up on top of Dex, motionless but definitely gripped on which you can see from the below picture. (how embarrassing! )
Finally we took Riley off.
Then I put them back in the bonding box for some 'down time' as I have been taught. I pet them and stressed them a little and then put them back on the floor with some veggies which neither of them touched.
Instead Riley got back up to mount Dex and finally Dex had enough and ran away.
At this point I 'called it', put them back in the box, pet them both to calm everybody down and end with snuggles, and put them back in their pens. In retrospect perhaps I should have let them do whatever would have come next after Dex ran away but I was feeling stress in the air and did not want it to escalate as we have made such good progress.
Also to note there was grooming - Dexter (submitting I guess?) and grooming Riley - her queen!

Concerns:
Im just feeling bad about all the stress I am putting my girls through. I keep wanting to give them a break for a few days but at the same time I really want to keep it moving. They are both still being really sweet to me but Dexter is smart enough to be very cautious when I come in the room assuming I am going to scoop her up for a date. I know this is all fine but it is hard on me as I have worked so hard gaining both my girls full trust and now I am breaking it daily. A little hard on mom. Also, I worry that they are both shedding more than usual and I hope the stress is not getting to either of them too badly. Their worlds have really changed a lot over the last few weeks or so. They used to never see each other and had run of the house. Now they are living in pens, next to each other and being taken for car rides, getting humped, going outside etc..!

Questions:
I am getting nervous that I am not handling the humping correctly. I get the sense that this is a really important part of the bonding process and I would hate to think that my actions will cause any set backs. How am I doing? What should I do? Should I let Riley hump? Should I turn a spray bottle on her when I see her gearing up to go?

Thanks guys!
Jackie

 heh heh, the humping picture is cute. The humping is about dominance. I would break it up if there was nipping involved or it lasts a long, long time, but otherwise I'd see how it resolves. The fact that the bunny being humped is also submitting is a good sign. 

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but a possibility if nothing else works, is to call a rabbit rescue locally and see if they have any very docile neutered males and if they would take your two girls and try a bonding with the male. Sometimes a triple bond can take the stress off of just two bunnies being forced to get along. That being said, this is a LAST resort if your two girls end up fighting again as it could also destroy a good bond. 

Bah, bunnies, so cute and yet so evil to each other.